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An easy-sounding problem yields numbers too big for our universe

79 pointsby abhi9uover 1 year ago

14 comments

trompover 1 year ago
&gt; It’s physically impossible to write down all the digits of 2^^6 — a liability of living in such a small universe.<p>What a coincidence! Just today I learned that someone found a 49 bit program whose output far exceeds Graham&#x27;s number [1], and the number 2^^6 features very prominently in it.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;codegolf.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;6430&#x2F;shortest-terminating-program-whose-output-size-exceeds-grahams-number&#x2F;263884#263884" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;codegolf.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;6430&#x2F;shortest-t...</a>
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bgribbleover 1 year ago
So given a start state and a library of valid transitions, it&#x27;s easy to create a (target, path, destination) tuple that&#x27;s valid (if you don&#x27;t care what the destination is). It&#x27;s easy to check if a (target, path, destination) tuple is valid. It&#x27;s just really hard to find the path given just the target and the destination.<p>This sounds like it has properties in common with &quot;multiply two very large primes to create a very large composite number&quot;. Could any of this math be used as the basis for a cryptosystem?
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7373737373over 1 year ago
The concept of reachability is pretty interesting in general as well.<p>&quot;Can a spaceship with a certain delta-v reach another planet within an n-body system? (And if so, what is the fastest-to target&#x2F;most resource preserving acceleration schedule?)&quot; - apparently necessitates brute force, practically not computable on long time scales due to the chaos inherent in n-body systems (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;space.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;64392&#x2F;escaping-earth-how-could-one-attempt-to-find-the-best-solution-to-this-traject" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;space.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;64392&#x2F;escaping-ear...</a>, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;N-body_problem" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;N-body_problem</a>)<p>&quot;Can a math proof be reached (within a certain number of proof steps) from the axioms?&quot; - equivalent to the halting problem in most practical systems (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;math.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;3477810&#x2F;estimating-meta-mathematical-properties-of-conjectures" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;math.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;3477810&#x2F;estimating-...</a>)<p>&quot;Can a demoscene program with a very limited program size visualize (or codegolf program output) something specific?&quot; - asking for nontrivial properties like this usually requires actually running each program, and there are unfathomably many short programs (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dwitter.net&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dwitter.net&#x2F;</a> is a good example of this)<p>&quot;In cookie-clicker games, is it possible to go above a certain score within a certain number of game ticks using some sequence of actions?&quot; - in all but the simplest and shortest games (like <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qewasd.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qewasd.com</a>), this is at least not <i>efficiently</i> (optimally) solvable using MILP and the like, as the number of possible action sequences increases exponentially<p>And yet, despite these being really hard (or in the general case, impossible) problems, humans use some heuristics to achieve progress
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lowbloodsugarover 1 year ago
So for those not familiar, 2^^4 is not ((2^2)^2)^2, it&#x27;s 2^(2^(2^2)). So 2^5 is 2^65536. 2^6 is 2^(2^65536).
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mjevansover 1 year ago
My eyes glazed over midway through the article. I&#x27;d like them to not try explaining the problem but just out and say what the problem is, then try to explain the details so that I can pick at the pieces I don&#x27;t get well enough.<p>I THINK the issue is probably something along the line of:<p>Every new type of thing adds a new dimension &#x2F; fold &#x2F; layer, and operations that transfer between layers can occur in any cycle. This leads to an exponentially complex area of valid states in a high-dimensional setting, likely with upper and lower bounds as the shape exists across dimensions. This sounds possibly intractable to define the more potential actions &#x2F; actors are involved. Thus it is very difficult to reach or process an equation that defines said shape and thus validates if a co-ordinate within the system space exists on or within the surface of the valid states of the system.
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hwayneover 1 year ago
This problem has a deep connection to formal methods: one of the first formal models of concurrent computing was Petri nets, which are equivalent to VASes. Petri nets are <i>very</i> limited in what they can model, and so finding reachability even those tiny, limited programs is HACK-complete!<p>What I love so much about this is that it&#x27;s <i>really hard</i> to find intuitive examples of TOWER-complete or even 2-EXPTIME-complete programs, but this one is so much harder than all of them but can easily be explained to a fifth-grader.<p>Next goal is to find an intuitive HYPERACK problem...
swader999over 1 year ago
I often wonder if the math for evolution is a similar problem.<p>There&#x27;s only a limited string of code that will survive and thrive.<p>There&#x27;s a set of evolutionary milestones or versions that need to happen to get where we are.<p>There&#x27;s a fixed amount of time on earth or perhaps the universe.<p>Is there really enough time for all those dice roles?
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Rapzidover 1 year ago
Kind of a bad way of explaining it to people familiar with reducing problems to reachability so they can be solved efficiently lol.
dclowd9901over 1 year ago
&gt; “That’s a very natural restriction for a model of reality,” said Wojciech Czerwiński, a computer scientist at the University of Warsaw. “You cannot have a negative number of apples.”<p>I realize this is probably outside the interest bounds of the problem space, but I could indeed have negative apples if I owe someone apples I don’t have.
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pixl97over 1 year ago
Not exactly related, but still a fun article that covers tetration and how stupidly big simple systems can get.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;waitbutwhy.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;11&#x2F;1000000-grahams-number.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;waitbutwhy.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;11&#x2F;1000000-grahams-number.html</a>
renewiltordover 1 year ago
Interesting result. That&#x27;s far faster growing than I would have anticipated since it seems intuitively like taking steps in a n-dimensional space which does grow fast, just not in a tetrative sense.
jbandela1over 1 year ago
&gt; There’s just one catch: No component of the vector describing the system’s state can ever drop below zero.<p>Maybe, this is why we need debt in an economic system, otherwise, certain transactions become intractable.
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deadbabeover 1 year ago
A humble request: someone please write the problem out in its entirety. Thank you!!
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Jeff_Brownover 1 year ago
Why is it so hard?
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