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Google's True Moonshot

168 pointsby scdoshiover 1 year ago

21 comments

terryfover 1 year ago
Is it possible that google will build the next great AI? Of course.<p>But right now they really really seem to be failing at it. Maybe the core tech in gemini is great. But it&#x27;s nowhere.<p>Just as an anecdote, I tried to actually pay google for an AI product they claimed to have launched - the image generation, Imagen 2. And apparently, I can&#x27;t. Even after tens of e-mails and a call with an account manager, the response is &quot;uh, follow us on twitter and explain why you are good at building AI tools&quot;. Jeez, buying a service is not supposed to be like a job interview. It&#x27;s supposed to be like buying the same service from OpenAI - enter credit card details and go.<p>So, the issue with google is that they took the wrong approach - build it in-house at a big company. What a big company has, are lawyers. Very good ones. The job of lawyers is to avoid risk. And they are great at it. However, building these sort of cutting edge services requires taking risk. And you can&#x27;t really do that at a large company.<p>This is why Microsoft is winning - they realized that investing into a startup that has no lawyers and is willing to take risk is the right path to quickly getting to the result. This is also why dalle3 and chatgpt4 are available for everyone today. And Geimini ultra isn&#x27;t.
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fumarover 1 year ago
The lengthy post boils down to this quote &quot; Google could build the AI to win it all&quot; but it is not guaranteed. I appreciate the context as someone who hasn&#x27;t kept a close eye on Google&#x27;s AI efforts, but Ben doesn&#x27;t cover why Google has a right to win outside of search data. Interestingly, there is no mention of AWS and Amazon&#x27;s wider efforts to create AI tools. There is hype around chat bots but what is the likelihood chat functionality is the premier AI gateway in the near future?<p>Edit: I thought about the topic more while wrapping up my work work. I am on the periphery of AI at one of the large US tech companies and we&#x27;ve placed AI bets along many of our existing products. Every day I run into this – &quot;I manage xyz product, we plan to add AI to help with XYZ in 2024&quot; or we added this chat functionality for &quot;manual job to be done.&quot; I don&#x27;t claim to have insight into the future on which of these solutions will be successful for their intended clients. The pattern I see is that AI can be quickly (relative) integrated or coupled onto existing software services. Is that the secret to AI? It will permeate through our digital lives either in small or big ways – but critically it isn&#x27;t one AI to rule them all. AI micro services will act like intermediaries between humans and some end service.<p>It is like chocolate. Why not pair chocolate with [enter any food stuff]? You could hit a home run like chocolate with peanut butter or chocolate chip cookies. Now we have chocolate everywhere including drinks, but chocolate isn&#x27;t required for a tasty result. And importantly chocolate isn&#x27;t always a standalone dish – it can be though.
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hn_throwaway_99over 1 year ago
The one part of this thesis that I pretty strongly disagree with is the idea that people would <i>prefer</i> to have long, meandering voice conversations with an AI, compared to text.<p>Just look at anyone under the age of 25 (35 maybe?) They can easily have long, meandering conversations with <i>actual</i> humans using voice, yet I see them go for text 9 times out of ten. As someone on the backside of middle age, I often find it pretty baffling. I like the succinctness of text when I need to send a quick update or ask a short question, but I normally always call someone for an in-depth conversation. But I&#x27;ll see my nieces text back and forth with friends for literally hours, sometimes getting emotionally worked up, and I&#x27;m thinking &quot;OMG, just pick up the phone to your ear and just <i>talk</i> to them.&quot;<p>But I think the reason people prefer texting is the same reason most people still prefer typing, despite tech that, these days, could easily transcribe with great accuracy. At least for me, typing frees up my brain to actually move <i>faster</i>. When typing, I can think about the next phrase or sentence. When talking, I find it much more difficult to &quot;think ahead&quot;, so to speak.<p>So I&#x27;m really skeptical that voice interfaces will be &quot;the wave of the future&quot;. Sure, I use OK Google a lot, but basically for the same sets of commands as everyone else (What&#x27;s the weather? Set my alarm. What&#x27;s next on my calendar? Etc. etc.) Occasionally I&#x27;ll ask it &quot;search-like&quot; questions. Perhaps I suffer from a dearth of imagination, but I just have a hard time believing long voice conversations with a machine are something most folks would want.
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rdsubhasover 1 year ago
Big companies drag themselves down – not because they can&#x27;t innovate – but because they can&#x27;t go &quot;all in&quot; into innovations which compete against their real cash cow.<p>An AI assistant fundamentally hits at Google&#x27;s gut: Search ad revenue. Yeah, Google can make dozens of AI demos. Are they <i>truly</i> ready to put Gemini as the default interaction model, pitting it against their search? Can they give super accurate answers to questions, without the potential of 3 sponsored results on top, in such a way that it would make their search obsolete?<p>Shareholders &quot;wish&quot; to see competitive demos, to not be left behind, etc. But are shareholders &amp; market ready for a 10% balance sheet revenue drop that comes with making an AI assistant a go-to product instead of search?<p>AI in Google could end up getting crippled, not by design, but by the environment and &quot;thou shalt not touch search revenue&quot; constraints under which it operates in.<p>It would be interesting if Alphabet (and Alphabet&#x27;s moonshots) totally distances itself from Google instead of being an internal structure sharing the same tickers, and treat Gemini as an all-out cannibalistic competitor to Google.
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roughlyover 1 year ago
What&#x27;s always frustrated me about Google is that I would pay a substantial amount of money on an ongoing basis for the capabilities they could provide, but I&#x27;m absolutely not willing to pay what they&#x27;re asking and what they&#x27;re asking is tanking their products.<p>Google as a products and services company - Google with Apple&#x27;s business model - is something I would&#x27;ve been a happy customer of for the last decade or two easily. Google as an ads company is an entity I go to great efforts to remove from my life.
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ChrisArchitectover 1 year ago
Aside: excruciating one hundred paragraphs about stuff he said previously, recently, or in another lifetime, before getting to the actual topic and title subject of the article. Geez. I don&#x27;t need articles to be transcripts of podcast-esque rambling. Get on with it!
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rob74over 1 year ago
&gt; <i>Yes, Android has its advantages to iOS, but they aren’t particularly meaningful to most people, and even for those that care — like me — they are not large enough to give up on iOS’s overall superior user experience.</i><p>That&#x27;s not the real question though - the real question is whether people find iOS compelling enough to pay a premium for using it <i>and</i> put up with the ecosystem lock-in. And the user experience is only superior when you&#x27;re used to it, as a longtime Android user I regularly get frustrated when having to use an iOS device...
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simon_000666over 1 year ago
In summary. At some point an ai assistant will replace 80% of the functionality&#x2F;apps offered by iOS &amp; android - it will finally become the new OS (as we all knew from watching her).<p>This is bad for Google as google’s main feature is search. Ai assistants will replace search and kill the main revenue stream which is ad clicks.<p>Google’s secret plan is to eventually canabilize it’s pixel phone with an ‘agent first’ device to try to beat Apple, MS &amp; OpenAI with a horizontal offering that is significantly better than the fragmented world of ChatGPT &amp;iOS &amp; azure.<p>But it’s worth remembering and I think the article fails to point this out. Agents will still ‘recommend’ things, you ask them to book you a flight - they still have to recommend a couple of options out of many - the agents need to decide and ultimately that decision is the same as choosing who to place at the top of the search results page - whoever wins the agent wars will win a significant proportion of Google search revenue as referral fees AND a significant proportion of IOS App Store revenue.<p>It really is winner takes all.
amadeuspagelover 1 year ago
People act as if there are two companies (Google and Apple) and two business models (ads and selling devices). In fact Google is perfectly capable of charging a subscription in a context where ads don&#x27;t make sense, like Drive, or even as an alternative, like Youtube Premium. Many people would pay a subscription for an assistant that&#x27;s actually good, and of course having such an assistant integrated with email and calendar would be extremely valuable.
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_the_inflatorover 1 year ago
We should consider the fact that AI ain’t a company, it is a feature, the same as highly intelligent people per se don’t earn tons of money.<p>Paradoxically we are in a phase of technological stagnation. Cloud movement was&#x2F;is maybe the latest paradigm shift for a couple of years to decades to come.<p>AI will accelerate features and won’t mark a product category itself, same as gifted people are capable of outperforming others in intellectual fields, but don’t necessarily need to.<p>The mundane stuff like generating text is what is AI paradoxically needed for. (Imagine that, that humanity’s greatest gift is now outsourced.)<p>This is what makes AI so hard to grasp. We know what it is, but it is hard to applying it in concrete business contexts. “OK Google analyze my company with 100.000 workers” won’t happen soon. Society needs to take care of possible side effects first.
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WesolyKubeczekover 1 year ago
I dunno, man, I can’t be arsed to trust Google to not scrap their thing a few years in anymore.<p>They will make something remotely nice, half ass the final 20% of it, leave it to rot, complain that there have been only X billion dollars of profits and not Y, and kill it off.<p>How they are not sunsetting Search yet, I cannot fathom.
jvdvegtover 1 year ago
For anybody else expecting Google to start shooting stuff at the moon: don&#x27;t bother reading, it&#x27;s just about more AI.
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nojvekover 1 year ago
&gt; After all, if a user doesn’t have to choose from search results, said user also doesn’t have the opportunity to click an ad, thus choosing the winner of the competition Google created between its advertisers for user attention. Google Assistant has the exact same problem: where do the ads go?<p>This is Google &#x2F; Alphabet&#x27;s biggest problem. Unlike Microsoft that has Enterprise, Gaming, Cloud and multiple other 10B+ businesses that don&#x27;t rely on ads, Google has only cloud.<p>And Google Cloud is a distant third where they actively sabotage their own success by not caring about customers. 90% of Google revenue comes from ads. From Search, youtube, Adsense e.t.c<p>If they build an AI that gives exactly what the user wants without ads, Google&#x27;s stakeholders would fire the CEO the next day.<p>My perception is that Google is in AI race to be relevant and capture the talent, but they don&#x27;t want to actively put AI anywhere near their products that would eat into their ad revenue.<p>Google Brain&#x2F;Deepmind produces great research, they have the most number of published papers, by a big margin, but Google is not the place if you want to work on productionizing AI.<p>Top AI Researchers probably make the most money being at the big tech labs - DeepMind &#x2F; Open AI &#x2F; Meta FAIR. I&#x27;ve heard comp being into the 10s of millions per year.
cyclecountover 1 year ago
&gt; <i>Google sells its own phones which could be configured to have a conversation UI by default (or with Google’s Pixel Buds). This removes the friction of opening an app and setting a mode. Google also has a fleet of home devices already designed for voice interaction. Google has massive amounts of infrastructure all over the globe, with the lowest latency and fastest response. This undergirds search today, but it could undergird a new generative AI assistant tomorrow. Google has access to gobs of data specifically tied to human vocal communication, thanks to YouTube in particular. In short, the Gemini demo may have been faked, but Google is by far the company best positioned to make it real.</i><p>How does he square any of that with the rest of the preceding article? Google having a technical advantage on paper and still fumbling the ball is their M.O. for a decade. Their ecosystem of devices, even just sticking to the Google-branded hardware, are inconsistent crap. Take a simple, first part app like Google Calendar and look at how sloppily and poorly it works across Pixel phones, Android Wear devices (including the Pixel Watch) and Home devices. Google sucks at building polished, consumer products.<p>Google is by far the best company positioned for AI assistants? Is this guy forgetting about Apple, the company that has a much stronger hardware ecosystem and that will demonstrate this in the coming months with a huge hardware launch that only they could do, leveraging a huge base of iOS apps, AirPod users, etc. Apple is building a network of personal hardware devices with a weak but well-integrated personal assistant. In 1-2 years, Siri will get a massive improvement based on recent advances in LLMs and it will be 80% as good as Google’s then probably thrice rebranded AI, but it will be 300% more polished and install automatically on hardware people actually like to use.
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Rastonburyover 1 year ago
Instead of turning Pixels with Assistants into iPhone killers and becoming Apple, author should have looked straight at Microsoft Copilot and how a paradigm shifting LLM in G Workspace could kill Office. The Pixel is still only sold in 21 countries, scaling to Apple level would be brutal.<p>Also that idea Google will build such a magically superior AI to every else is a bold claim. Can it make a competitive one? Yes. Can it make one so good that it makes every other AI obselete and everyone trade their iPhone for Pixel? I think that&#x27;s unlikely given the level of competition
ur-whaleover 1 year ago
Undertaking that kind of focused, bold, visionary attack would first and foremost require to have a CEO with the same kind of attributes:bold, focused and visionary.<p>Unfortunately, ball-less wonder milquetoast Sundar has none of the above attributes.<p>He was hired 10 years ago not to rock the boat, but to stay the course, a strategy that requires a CEO with all the exact opposite attributes: meek, boring, visionless and all over the place.
nkingsyover 1 year ago
I was under the impression that the data google has isn’t too valuable for ai training, as quality is so important.<p>If textbook quality data is needed, then we are basically limited by the current best LLM’s ability to create synthetic textbooks.<p>Or perhaps this is a path Microsoft is trying (and presumably openai) due to a lack of good non-synthetic data.
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hosejaover 1 year ago
Is the phrase &quot;OK Google&quot; very hard to pronounce for anyone else? Specifically the G after the Kay.
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smeagullover 1 year ago
Does anyone know if it is actually possible to completely disable the voice assistant on Android? I&#x27;ve changed every setting I can, and no matter what, if I plug in headphones, it&#x27;ll prompt me if the connection goes loose.
netcanover 1 year ago
Good read.<p>&gt; <i>Google’s collection of moonshots — from Waymo to Google Fiber to Nest to Project Wing to Verily to Project Loon (and the list goes on) — have mostly been science projects ....</i><p>...<i>a car service rather far afield from Google’s mission statement “to organize the world’s information</i><p>...<i>What if “I’m Feeling Lucky” were not a whimsical button on a spartan home page, but the default way of interacting with all of the world’s information? What if an AI Assistant were so good, and so natural</i><p>So... I think we should distinguish between &quot;moonshot&quot; and &quot;silver bullet.&quot; One is a big, difficult goal that can be a approached with lots of determination, resources and such. The other is a future breakthrough that just fixes everything.<p>Google has always struggled making (great) technology and concepts into products, and products into businesses. The biggest miss, IMO, was cloud. Msft &amp; Amzn relative successes highlight where google isn&#x27;t strategically strong.<p>Waymo might be the biggest investment (probably &gt;$100bn risked). Cloud is the large business category that actually exists. Google should have been here, considering where everyone was circa 2008. Google had the tech, the concepts, even the products. It wasn&#x27;t effective at making that a great business.<p>The &quot;OK Google&quot; assistant story tell objectively, because no one else has done a great job with voice interfaces either. That said I think it demonstrate the difficulty of going &quot;concept to products.&quot;<p>IMO, the problem with voice assistant has been a problem of imagination. Voice is a UI paradigm. What are the key use cases, where this new UI paradigm is powerful? They never invented it.<p>Anyway... I think the strategic logic is flawed... if that is indeed the strategic logic It&#x27;s &quot;singularity thinking.&quot; An expectation that version N+2 makes version N=1 obsolete. He who attains the GPTn, owns driving, personal computing, etc.<p>&gt;<i>The potential payoff, though, is astronomical: a world with Pixie everywhere means a world where Google makes real money from selling hardware, in addition to services for enterprises and schools, and cloud services</i><p>So this is what I mean. A &quot;moonshot&quot; would be defining these and going after them with real big intent. Not one that considers everything side effects of some big breakthrough that makes all linear approaches irrelevant. Voice UIs, even self driving, whatever wing&#x27;s mission is.... these aren&#x27;t impossible ideas even with current science &amp; computing power. They&#x27;re just hard. Requiring imagination. Risk. Vision. Strategy.<p>Drones are a method. Delivery is the task. Human-like drivers are a method. Transport is the task. Voice recognition. LLMs. These are methods. Not tasks. If you&#x27;re doing silver bullet, it&#x27;s nice to avoid defining the task. If you&#x27;re doing moonshots, you want to be brutalist in defining the task.
andrewstuartover 1 year ago
Google no longer seems relevant to anything much apart from what it’s already doing well… YouTube, search, android, maps.
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