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FAQ on Leaving Google

462 pointsby mrledover 1 year ago

36 comments

sethops1over 1 year ago
Two talks given by Ben Collins-Sussman absolutely changed my career path from being a hot headed programmer to thinking like a professional engineer.<p>The Myth of the Genius Programmer: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=0SARbwvhupQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=0SARbwvhupQ</a><p>The Art of Organizational Manipulation: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=OTCuYzAw31Y" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=OTCuYzAw31Y</a><p>I rewatch these every few years, or before an interview. Puts me back in the right headspace.<p>If you&#x27;re reading this Ben, thank you.
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thrtythreefortyover 1 year ago
The author also published [1] an email he wrote at the beginning of his tenure. It is amazing how alien and out of place early Google sounds in today&#x27;s corporate environment. They have completely eroded the perception that Google is this kind of place:<p>&gt; Google is the opposite: it&#x27;s like a giant grad-school. Half the programmers have PhD&#x27;s, and everyone treats the place like a giant research playground [...] Every once in a while, a manager skims over the bubbling activity, looking for products to &quot;reap&quot; from the creative harvest. The programmers completely drive the company, it&#x27;s really amazing. I kept waiting for people to walk up to me and ask me if I had declared my major yet. They not only encourage personal experimentation and innovation, they demand it. Every programmer is required to spend 20% of their time working on random personal projects. If you get overloaded by a crisis, then that 20% personal time accrues anyway. Nearly every Google technology you know (maps, earth, gmail) started out as somebody&#x27;s 20% project, I think.<p>Even if this was only half-true back then, there&#x27;s very little you could do to convince me that it&#x27;s true at all now. This culture and the public perception of it has been squandered.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;social.clawhammer.net&#x2F;blog&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2005-09-25-FirstWeekAtGoogle&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;social.clawhammer.net&#x2F;blog&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2005-09-25-FirstWee...</a>
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charles_fover 1 year ago
&gt; it makes no sense to either love or be angry at “Google”<p>Someone decided to handle this situation that way, so one has a perfect right to be angry at them, and generalize that as &quot;being angry at Google&quot;.<p>The author takes it with philosophy and pragmatism, that&#x27;s admirable and I&#x27;m certainly not one to tell them how they should feel. But other factors indicate that his situation was also prone for that positiveness (feeling like a relief because of golden handcuffs, long tenure in a stock-distributing tech company + director level meaning that there&#x27;s likely no concerns regarding money, side career already underway, maybe a relief to have some change).<p>Others might not be in the same situation, and are now jobless in in slow economy, with tenuous savings, rent or mortgage coming up. They might feel outright furious for a layoff that they have neither control on, nor were a reason for, and that shows no face to take responsibility - and they&#x27;re completely entitled to feel that way, if that helps them cope. I&#x27;d say it makes sense to me, and don&#x27;t feel bad for being angry if that&#x27;s how you feel.
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danparsonsonover 1 year ago
&gt; Context: When I was laid off from Google, I knew I&#x27;d be deluged with questions. I wrote this FAQ to share with friends and family, to prevent repeated explanation.<p>This is quite sweet in its stereotypical techie approach to life - your friends and family are asking questions about your situation because they care about and want to bond with you, not because they particularly care about the actual information you&#x27;re conveying :-)
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nextosover 1 year ago
IMHO, these senior people leaving is a good thing for them and for society.<p>Most have enough savings to be able to start up something interesting, fun, and that delivers a lot more societal value than their current Google role.<p>Junior redundancies are more problematic, particularly in the current job market.
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bumbledravenover 1 year ago
Ben&#x27;s follow up from Jan 12: &quot;Surprised by the Response&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;social.clawhammer.net&#x2F;blog&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2024-01-12-ExitResponse&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;social.clawhammer.net&#x2F;blog&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2024-01-12-ExitResp...</a>).
simonwover 1 year ago
I knew Ben Collins-Sussman from his work on Subversion and his writing and speaking about engineering management... but I had no idea he&#x27;d co-composed two musicals as well! <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ben_Collins-Sussman#Musical_compositions" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ben_Collins-Sussman#Musical_co...</a>
ggambettaover 1 year ago
<i>The conflict between “uncomfortable culture” and “golden handcuffs” was becoming intolerable.</i><p>Amen :_(
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kagakuninjaover 1 year ago
Step one: dry your tears while counting your giant pile of money...
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iLoveOncallover 1 year ago
Very easy FAQ to write for a 55 years old someone who&#x27;s been a director for close to 6 years and therefore earning more than a million a year for that period. It&#x27;s another story for a newly hired L3 engineer.<p>I&#x27;m lucky that not a single one of my friends has been affected by layoffs at my company, but I find apologism of bad executive management like this is incredibly bad taste if not outright insulting to people that are affected by layoffs.
SlightlyLeftPadover 1 year ago
Sigh, if I was making 700k&#x2F;year for 18 years (plus stock options) I want to believe I’d be “fine” if I was laid off.<p>Unfortunately, That is so certainly not the reality I live in right now.
erehwebover 1 year ago
&gt; Please understand: Google is not a person.<p>Literally true. On the other hand, the founders still have complete voting control of the company, so really the buck stops with them.
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_xlxyover 1 year ago
I wrote something questioning why Google employees should deserve wider news here<p>But if you look at Googler posts here, it&#x27;s pretty clear how bent out of place a lot of them are.<p>All said, smart as they are, plenty less smart people leave jobs, so what&#x27;s the news here?<p>It was the same with Twitter. There&#x27;s no special &#x27;crying place&#x27; for other jobs and departures, so why here and now?
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camdenlockover 1 year ago
I keep seeing references to this recent “uncomfortable culture” at Google. Can someone from Google (past or present) explain what this is?
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free652over 1 year ago
IMHO a lot of googlers (especially old timers) believe they were special, here is a news flash. You weren&#x27;t, Google didn&#x27;t come with a lot of products. And that&#x27;s why where Google is right now.
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derfnuggetover 1 year ago
I&#x27;m a software engineer with 5 years at a FANG company. In the entirety of your time at Google did you ever identify a high performing contractor and make your mission to make them a full-time employee?
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bitwizeover 1 year ago
<i>Please understand: Google is not a person.</i><p>Don&#x27;t anthropomorphize the lawnmower...
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starchild3001over 1 year ago
Hey, current Googler here. I joined in 2017. For those who are looking from outside to those who reminisce past Google, I have an update for you: Google is still a f&#x27;ing amazing workplace. It&#x27;s easily the best company I worked for in my 24 yrs of post-college career. Amazing colleagues. Incredible learning opportunity. Super fun projects. Really good pay. Your mileage may vary. This is my N=1 impression as an ML expert currently working on Ads. Best of luck!
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MOARDONGZPLZover 1 year ago
I met this guy at a Google weekend-gathering in Chicago one winter. Really enjoyed chatting with him and wish him the best.
encyclicover 1 year ago
Having toiled in the Google mines for almost as long a tenure as Ben before my time came in 2021, the words &#x27;The conflict between “uncomfortable culture” and “golden handcuffs” was becoming intolerable.&#x27; could not ring any truer.
throw_pm23over 1 year ago
A nice writeup but<p>&quot;achieving really cool things in the [..] Ads [..] divisions&quot;?<p>Come on, no need to fool anyone now that you are free.. There&#x27;s nothing cool to be achieved in ads, unless you were working to dismantle the entire industry from the inside.
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mvkelover 1 year ago
If a company&#x27;s &quot;culture&quot; craters after a single round of layoffs, then the culture wasn&#x27;t doing well at all.<p>When things are going well, everyone is happy, and the culture feels solid. But culture is also important, arguably more, when things aren&#x27;t going well.<p>There have been enough accounts like this that it&#x27;s safe to say Google is beyond just smoke; there is a fire.
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lxeover 1 year ago
&gt; Please understand: Google is not a person. It’s many groups of people following locally-varying processes, rules, and culture. To that end, it makes no sense to either love or be angry at “Google”; it’s not a consciousness, and it has no sense of duty nor debt.<p>This isn&#x27;t right. Behind every decision is still a human (for now). Someone messed up and you were the victim.
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aeturnumover 1 year ago
&gt; <i>This is unfair! After all you’ve done, how could Google do this to you?</i><p>&gt; <i>Please understand: Google is not a person. It’s many groups of people following locally-varying processes, rules, and culture. To that end, it makes no sense to either love or be angry at “Google”; it’s not a consciousness, and it has no sense of duty nor debt.</i><p>This is a such a strange view. You shouldn&#x27;t be angry at google, because google is just people. No mention of being angry at the people, who maybe it would be unfair to blame for &quot;google&quot;s actions. Conveniently there&#x27;s no appropriate subject (or object) to feel about.<p>I think the shorthands he attacks, though they&#x27;re literally untrue, are also really helpful metaphors. Large organizations have a character that no one person is responsible for and personifying them and assessing how we feel about their actions is a useful tool for reflection and assessment. Each member of those &quot;groups of people&quot; should reflect on how they as individuals (and their group) contributes to it. A company isn&#x27;t &quot;just&quot; an aggregate of all people in it - but it is <i>mostly</i> that.<p>You can&#x27;t hurt a company&#x27;s feelings (just the feelings of the people who work there) - but you can be upset at what it does to you and speak about that.
blindriverover 1 year ago
Googles layoff are among the dumbest I’ve ever seen.<p>Laying off randomly and not low performers is par for the course for the management of Google. High performers will leave when the market gets Better and the company will fill itself with more shitty performers.<p>This is not how a top tier company behaves.
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devwastakenover 1 year ago
&gt;Please understand: Google is not a person.<p>In both law and culture Google is infact a person in such that they inherit the rights of a person.
sciencesamaover 1 year ago
All yoir vested unvested stock can give that flexibility !
AlbertCoryover 1 year ago
best of luck, Ben. I spent a few days visiting the Chicago office (when it was opposite Marina Towers), so maybe we met.
tickertickerover 1 year ago
Gotta ask....do you play the banjo?
longtimegooglerover 1 year ago
Jesus. That was kind of tone deaf. Not everyone laid off is an Engineering Director who has worked at Google for 18 years. That guy probably could have retired years ago. There are many who were laid off for whom that isn&#x27;t true.
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throwitaway222over 1 year ago
Tech is simply maturing. It has had two major meltdowns at this point. The first one it was still getting it&#x27;s footing. The second one accounts for bloat in an age where half the hiring was done during a pandemic that necessitated positions that are pretty much superfluous now. Zoom competitors, Virtual meetings, 3d environments - all the pandemic related initiatives that &quot;brought people together&quot; are over. We&#x27;re moving back to the office, we&#x27;re dropping DEI, migrating things to AI.<p>This is not the end of extremely large paychecks, but it&#x27;s the end of potentially 30% of them.
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ProAmover 1 year ago
&gt; Google is not a person.<p>Citizens United has entered the chat. [1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.brennancenter.org&#x2F;our-work&#x2F;research-reports&#x2F;citizens-united-explained" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.brennancenter.org&#x2F;our-work&#x2F;research-reports&#x2F;citi...</a>
goalonetwoover 1 year ago
[edit] snark
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coliveiraover 1 year ago
&quot;Google is not a person&quot;... Google lawyers will tell you completely otherwise! Google is certainly a person in the thinking of the US supreme court.
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imiricover 1 year ago
Great. I hope that you now have time to reflect on the impact your products have on humanity.
crossroadsguyover 1 year ago
I had to pause here for a second<p>&gt; “enormous pride” in “building” a Chicago Engineering office over decades, and achieving really cool things in the Developer, “Ads”, and Search divisions
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