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On Leibniz Notation

171 pointsby colonCapitalDeeover 1 year ago

23 comments

fiforpgover 1 year ago
Such discussions show that teaching of calculus often tends to be overly algebraic, for no good reason.<p>Clearly, Leibniz notation does not <i>intrinsically</i> contain any deep insights since at one point Leibniz himself was erroneously induced by it to think that d(xy)= d(x)d(y), which is false. Newton on the other hand thought in terms of simple geometric concepts (areas), which make it crystal clear that d(xy) = x d(y) + y d(x).<p>On the topic of history of early analysis I cannot recommend enough this collection of anecdotes from Arnold:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.org&#x2F;details&#x2F;huygensbarrownew0000arno" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.org&#x2F;details&#x2F;huygensbarrownew0000arno</a>
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xamuelover 1 year ago
One can make a very good argument that in elementary calculus, we actually use what logicians would call &quot;terms&quot;, but refer to them as &quot;functions&quot;. For example, if f is a unary function symbol and x is a variable then f(x) is a term, different from f(y) if y is a different variable. It&#x27;s possible to develop everything quite rigorously using this machinery and when the dust clears, you get a rigorous version of what is actually done in practice in the elementary calculus classroom. As an advantage, certain things become much clearer, for instance, there&#x27;s a very nice abstract multivariable chain rule which I describe in this paper: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;philpapers.org&#x2F;archive&#x2F;ALEFDV.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;philpapers.org&#x2F;archive&#x2F;ALEFDV.pdf</a>
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Buttons840over 1 year ago
I&#x27;ve learned calculus a few times in and out of school. I learned it best from a home-schooling focused text book. The author published a paper describing his notation [0]; see section 3 which is very readable.<p>The paper explains:<p>&gt; Most calculus students glaze over the notation for higher derivatives, and few, if any, books bother to give any reasons behind what the notation means. It&#x27;s important to go back and consider why the notation is what it is, and what the pieces are supposed to represent.<p>&gt; In modern calculus, the derivative is always taken with respect to some variable. However, this is not strictly required, as the differential operation can be used in a context-free manner. The processes of taking a differential and solving for a derivative (i.e., some ratio of differentials) can be separated out into logically separate operations.<p>&gt; In such an operation, instead of doing d&#x2F;dx (taking the derivative with respect to the variable x), one would separate out performing the differential and dividing by dx as separate steps. Originally, in the Leibnizian conception of the differential, one did not even bother solving for derivatives, as they made little sense from the original geometric construction of them.<p>&gt; For a simple example, the differential of x^3 can be found using a basic differential operator such that d(x^3) = 3x^2 dx. The derivative is simply the differential divided by dx. This would yield d(x^3)&#x2F;dx = 3x^2.<p>Is this significantly different than what is normally taught in schools? Using the notation described here is the first time it has felt like a tool rather than a formality to me, and it&#x27;s quite different than the way I was thinking while taking calculus in high school. I&#x27;m not really sure how unusual this notation is though?<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;1801.09553.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;1801.09553.pdf</a>
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BlackFlyover 1 year ago
The choice of denominator letters are not irrelevant in Leibniz notation. They are chosen in conjunction with parameterization in order to suppress arguments to avoid being lengthy. Similar to how Einstein summation convention is used to suppress summation symbols. All notational conveniences lead to confusion in certain scenarios.<p>Given a field W, you will want to talk about various derivatives of the field. However, you might not be interested in the derivative of the fields with respect to coordinate fields like `\partial W &#x2F; \partial x^i`, you might be interested in derivatives of that field with respect to some other field like `\partial W &#x2F; \partial \lambda_i`. Then you end up introducing all kinds of auxiliary notation for the functional representations of the field. You end up with `\tilde{W}(\lambda_i)` and `\bar{W}(I_i)` next to `W(x_i)`.<p>Or just consider changes of variable, one generally doesn&#x27;t distinguish the electric field `E` from cartesian, to axisymmetric, to spherical to whatever other coordinate system you dream up. Instead, the presence of the chosen coordinate symbols denotes the coordinate system in use and you don&#x27;t need to distinguish the field from its functional representation. In order to understand `\partial_2 E` you would need to understand what coordinates I am working with while `\partial E &#x2F; \partial y` is a bit more self explanatory in classical electrodynamics. Thermodynamics picks up confusion because of the constant changes in variable when the variables aren&#x27;t coordinates.
zero-sharpover 1 year ago
Briefly, the way you make sense of this is by being consistent with notation and being aware of definitions. f is a function. f(x) is not a function. f(x) is an element of the range. Unfortunately, I&#x27;m sure growing up your teachers probably referred to f(x) as being the function. If you just simplify the function composition and clearly label objects, I&#x27;m pretty sure you won&#x27;t have this kind of confusion. It really shouldn&#x27;t be this complicated.<p>While we&#x27;re at it, it&#x27;s probably not the best idea to represent derivatives as fractions either (for the sake of notational consistency). But that notation will never die.
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Tainnorover 1 year ago
&gt; So, until you are able to perform this &quot;translation&quot; from precise to imprecise notation, I suggest you stick to the precise notation, until all the fundamental concepts are clear, and only then abuse notation.<p>I agree with this part. I think in teaching, the precise notation should be taught first and everyone should understand it well. But later on, it will make communication and even just doing calculations easier if you can accept the imprecise notation, use it and translate it into something clearer when needed. This is particularly handy in e.g. differential equations where sloppy notation makes certain manipulations a bit easier.
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cygxover 1 year ago
Note that in context of differential geometry, the name in the denominator is not associated with the function, but a coordinate system on its domain:<p>Let M be a differential manifold, eg M = ℝ² and φ a chart, eg cartesian coordinates φ: p ↦(x(p), y(p)) where x,y: M → ℝ. Then, ∂&#x2F;∂x denotes the holonomic vector field tangent to the coordinate lines t ↦ φ⁻¹(x(p) + t, y(p)) through any p ∈ M.<p>It is convenient to identify vectors and directional derivatives (this is in fact one possible way to define tangent vectors on manifolds), which for a function f: M → ℝ yields<p>(∂f&#x2F;∂x)(p) = ∂&#x2F;∂x|ₚ f = lim_{h → 0} ( f(φ⁻¹(x(p) + h, y(p))) - f(p) ) &#x2F; h
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tobinfrickeover 1 year ago
The discussion in Sussman and Wisdom&#x27;s &quot;Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics&quot;, about how the Euler-Lagrange equations don&#x27;t literally make sense as traditionally written, has long resonated with me:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mitp-content-server.mit.edu&#x2F;books&#x2F;content&#x2F;sectbyfn&#x2F;books_pres_0&#x2F;9579&#x2F;sicm_edition_2.zip&#x2F;preface001.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mitp-content-server.mit.edu&#x2F;books&#x2F;content&#x2F;sectbyfn&#x2F;b...</a><p>They also adopt a notation where partial derivatives are taken with respect to &quot;argument slots&quot;.
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bmachoover 1 year ago
Not just Leibniz notation, but for example <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Partial_derivative" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Partial_derivative</a> is total bonkers, every single equation on it means the total opposite than in the rest of the mathematics.<p>Wtf is<p>&gt; the partial derivation of a function f(x,y,z...)<p>or deriving a function respect to a variable? Functions don&#x27;t have variables, named variables, that&#x27;s Python, not math[0]. In math expressions can have free variables, and function arguments are indexed with numbers. You can derive x+y by x, or you can derive f : (x,y) |-&gt; x+y by its first variable, but you can&#x27;t mix them. That only leads to things as df(x,x)&#x2F;dx and such abominations.<p>Multivariable calculus people really should just adopt the function notation of the rest of the mathematics fr.<p>[0] : <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Function_(mathematics)#Definition" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Function_(mathematics)#Definit...</a>
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rocquaover 1 year ago
The idea that the letter choice shouldn&#x27;t matter fully makes sense to me. And in general, point free notation can be nice (point free meaning operating on the function rather than introducing an arbitrary point and operating on the function evaluated at the arbitrary point.<p>Despite this, I still believe Leibniz notation is superior for multi-argument functions. For multi argument functions, named arguments are much clearer than just depending on the order of arguments. Essentially I advocate for dropping point-freeness for clarity on the difference between function arguments.<p>Besides that, by expression equivalence it is clearly the case that the only correct interpretation of the derivative is the &#x27;composition&#x27; where the change in t also counts for the change in x. Because replacing the f(x(t), t) with g(x) (where g is the composition, should not change the outcome of the derivative.
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LudwigNagasenaover 1 year ago
A somewhat relevant article, it explores an alternative to Leibniz notation: Extending the Algebraic Manipulability of Differentials (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;1801.09553.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;1801.09553.pdf</a>).
seanhunterover 1 year ago
Firstly I think that answer is amazing and I learned a lot from it even though I disagree with a lot of what they are saying. Math stack exchange is really high-quality sometimes and I think this is a great example.<p>For me the two notations are a lot like positional argument ordering vs named function arguments in a language like python which offers both. I personally prefer Legrange’s notation most of the time but think they both have their place. Legrange notation emphasises the ordering of the arguments and makes their naming going into the function irrelevant. This makes a lot of sense to me in a lot of situations where you have some pure abstract function with abstract arguments and makes it a lot easier to reason about certain things (like the example given or the chain rule which the author uses as an example where the common Leibniz formulation literally only makes sense if you do an explicit substitution in the function which is often not really explained).<p>On the other hand Leibniz notation makes a lot of sense to me in contexts like physics where the names of the function arguments are really important. You aren’t just picking your favourites as the author claims. For a very simple example, if I say a = \frac{d^2s}{dt^2}, every physicist knows a bunch. I am calculating accelleration as the second derivative of displacement with respect to time. “s” isn’t just my favourite letter today. So “named arguments” make a lot of sense here.<p>Secondly, Leibniz notation gives us the “derivative operator”[1], which is often very useful. Say I’m trying to find some derivative that involves a bunch of intermediate working out steps. It’s tremendously convenient to be able to say “&lt;something&gt; times d by dx of &lt;some other expression&gt;” and come back and differentiate “some other expression” in a later step. In Lagrange notation I would need to let that second expression be some named intermediate function so I have something to hang my tick off, which is definitely a lot more of a pain.<p>[1] I’m not far enough along in my calculus journey to know whether I’m saying this right so forgive me if my terminology is incorrect - hopefully you get the intent.
captainmuonover 1 year ago
Funnily, I disagree with almost every point in the most upvoted answer. For me (as a physicist by training), the f&#x27; notation is a shorthand, and df&#x2F;dx is the more clear notation. Because especially in physics, you often deal with functions that are dependent on multiple variables. Do I want to differentiate wrt. time or position? You can use &quot;f dot&quot; for the time derivative, but in more complex cases you are out of luck. How can you distinguish between f(x) and f(t) which are very different functions? And what if the variables depend on each other? You need a notation that distinguishes between treating &quot;x&quot; as a variable, and &quot;x&quot; as something that is dependent on some other variable.<p>The nice thing about Leibnitz calculus [1] is that you can do things like reduce fractions with dx&#x27;es, you can flip things around and calculate dx&#x2F;df, the chain rule is not a rule that you have to memorize but just an obvious expansion etc., and it mostly just works. I don&#x27;t recall seeing an explicit proof <i>why</i> it works (except for some specific cases), or a list of exact rules, but I&#x27;m sure that exists and it would have been neat to have seen that in my studies.<p>[1] calculus here in the sense of German Kalkül, a notational system and a method of mechanically manipulating symbols, and not neccessarily meaning &quot;differential and integral calculation&quot;, although &quot;the&quot; calculus is the prime example of &quot;a calculus&quot; of course.
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BruceEelover 1 year ago
It&#x27;s probably because I&#x27;m an ignorant idiot, particularly when it comes to calculus, but this read like a revelation:<p><pre><code> &quot;the concept of a function shouldn&#x27;t depend on what your favourite letter is!&quot; </code></pre> Very helpful answer, thanks for posting.
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tolmaskyover 1 year ago
Is there a good explanation of u substitution (or any other integral stuff that makes use of the denominator) using non-Liebnitz notation? Is it just that ∂1 is actually ∂&#x2F;∂1, and thus you can begin using ∂1 the way you would have used ∂x?
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amaticover 1 year ago
&gt; &quot;what&#x27;s so special about x ?&quot; Does f(x) mean one function, whereas f(y) means a completely different function?<p>This looks like the difference between parameters of a function and arguments. In the definition, you have the parameter x, used internaly and, when calling the function you use an argument - located in the calling context. In python: def f(x): return 2*x ## x is a parameter x = 3 y = f(x) # x in an argument<p>For partial derivatives, it may be ok to use 1 and 2 to show they are the first and second parameter, but maybe they could also be named by some convention, like x and y or alpha and beta or whatever
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robinhoustonover 1 year ago
I don’t like the accepted answer here, because it criticises Leibniz notation without explaining what it means – and apparently without actually _understanding_ it, since the author several times writes words to the effect of “this is nonsense” in reference to expressions that in fact make perfect sense when interpreted correctly.<p>The salient issue that the author of that answer seems not to have understood, which we here in the land of the Y Combinator should have less trouble with, is the distinction between free and bound variables.<p>In lambda calculus, variable binding is explicit and denoted by a lambda. Leibniz notation binds variables in just the same way: the operator (d&#x2F;dx) binds the variable x in the expression to which it is applied.
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movpasdover 1 year ago
I hope you will forgive me for this wall of text, but this is a topic that is quite close to my heart and that I&#x27;ve gone back and forth in many times before settling on my current perspective.<p>I appreciate that especially for mathematicians and programmers, making a clean distinction between a function and its evaluation is a key conceptual point, and Leibniz notation obscures this fact. However, there are good reasons why physicists use Leibniz notation, and this answer really glosses over that.<p>The reason is that the particularities of the mathematical structures used to model a physical problem matter a lot less than the relationships between the actual physical underlying quantities. And there can be a lot of them. The answer evokes thermodynamics, and I couldn&#x27;t think of a better example. Are we really to introduce a distinct symbol for _every_ possible functional relation between _every_ state variable? If I have T = f(P, V) and P = g(T, S), do I need to remember in which position exactly each function has been ordered before I can write down &quot;how P varies with T when S is fixed&quot;?<p>Leibniz notation, although formally tricksy, is just the best tool for communicating the _intent_ of a physical relationship without getting bogged down in the mathematically detail. The purpose of an equation is to express that relationship to the reader. Think if it like code — is it so bad if my code does a bit of magic behind the scenes to allow for a clearer reading, even if the semantics aren&#x27;t immediately obvious? Well, ultimately, it depends on the situation, and a balance must be reached. I don&#x27;t believe that expressing everything the way TFA suggests is striking the right balance.<p>Notational abuse happens all the time in physics, and this is certainly not the most egregious example. Just compare it to the path integral. It&#x27;s easy to assume that this is because of a lack of sophistication or rigour by physicists. (Certainly I did throughout my physics education, being more mathematically or pedantically inclined.) But it&#x27;s a simplistic view.<p>Now, while I&#x27;ll defend the usage of these sort of unrigorous conventions even if they are strictly speaking meaningless mathematically, what I won&#x27;t defend is the slapdash approach that is often used to _teach_ partial derivatives to physicists. Some exposure to concepts like distinguishing real variables&#x2F;quantities from functions is needed, or, as TFA does mention at the end, the student won&#x27;t be able to unpack the notational convenience into clear semantics, which can lead to unclear reasoning. I used to share the views of the author for a period when first introduced to Leibniz partial derivative notation in my first thermodynamics course, and, probably like them, found it to be totally incomprehensible symbol soup. But for myself, I see now that it was mostly a failure of teaching rather than a failure of the notation itself.<p>I&#x27;ll add one last thought. There is a degree of &quot;primitive obsession&quot; at work here, trying to fit everything into positional functions and real numbers. I have thought that a formalism that better reflects the structure of &quot;physical quantity&quot; (as opposed to thinking of them as plain real numbers) may help bridge the gap between rigour and conceptual convenience. The tools are really already there. We need two key concepts: first, borrow from programming the idea of keyword arguments (there is a book which sadly I can&#x27;t remember the name of which does as much to formalize Einstein notation for tensors in a coordinate-free way); second, to model quantities not as real numbers but as differentiable homomorphisms from a state space (modeled as a manifold in a coordinate-free way) to the reals. This is how physicists already think about it, it needs only be formalised.
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sirsinsalotover 1 year ago
I&#x27;m currently reading &quot;Calculus Reordered: A history of the big ideas&quot; by David M Bressoud, which really helped me contextualise all the peculiarities of calculus.<p>It really does feel like a hodgepodge of poorly fitting parts that could use some revision in terms of notation and teaching, but I feel like that&#x27;s part of the charm.<p>I like that it encodes so much history and culture &quot;up front&quot;. It reminds me of PHP. There is no way a good language designer would create PHP intentionally but as ugly as it was, it was brilliant in 1999. Index.php and you&#x27;re done.
OscarCunninghamover 1 year ago
The way to think about Leibniz notation is that there&#x27;s a manifold M, and all the quantities f,g,x,y… are functions from M to the reals. Then you can talk about the derivative of any of these quantities with respect to any of the others, without thinking of any of them as the arguments of any of the others.
tesdingerover 1 year ago
What if your physics problem involves the same physical quantity twice, like speeds and masses of two bodies? Then single letter variable names are no longer unique nor meaningful.<p>f(v_1, m_1, v_2, m_2)<p>For the derivatives I would prefer writing<p>d_v_2 f<p>instead of<p>d_3 f<p>when counting arguments from 1
tlbover 1 year ago
&gt; &quot;the choice of letters SHOULD NOT affect the meaning of a mathematical statement&quot;<p>I mean, that ship sailed a long time ago. You can&#x27;t understand any modern math or physics (or ML, or CS) paper without depending on variable naming conventions. Attempts (like Sussman &amp; Wisdom) to have a properly lexically scoped notation end up being quite verbose.
amaiover 1 year ago
All notations are wrong. But some of them are useful.