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Ask HN: Problems worth solving with a low-code back end?

30 pointsby jarirajariabout 1 year ago
I have built a low-code (textual) backend builder that allows writing a backend as functions. For example, a (part) of a backend that calculates average of an integer array and then prints it out:<p>### average=AVERAGE([1,1,2,3,5,8]) ECHO(average) ###<p>Now I am trying to find problems worth solving with it to verify builder&#x27;s expressiveness and limitations. So far I haven&#x27;t really encountered suitable problems. I have researched many lowcode&#x2F;workflow automation tools&#x2F;builder and their shared use-cases or success stories, but to me they just show-case how little they can achieve.<p>Have you used a low-code backend builder already for some ambitious&#x2F;cool problems&#x2F;use-cases? Or do you have a such problem&#x2F;use-case in mind? If you would evaluate a low-code backend builder, how would you do it?

14 comments

codingdaveabout 1 year ago
You aren&#x27;t wrong - back around 2010 BPM&#x2F;workflow automation was in a hype cycle, but many projects ended up being high-code anyway as they didn&#x27;t live up to expectations.<p>But your example isn&#x27;t low-code in the same way as any of that - it is just a different syntax for a fairly simple function. So I&#x27;d ask what your builder actually does?<p>At a &quot;table stakes&quot; level, low code back-end needs to focus on business needs, not running basic functions: Approval cycles, form submissions, those kinds of things. I&#x27;m biased from all my old Enterprise IT experience, but I&#x27;d say that if your builder cannot show how you&#x27;d build a basic process of: &quot;Create Form&quot; -&gt; &quot;Send to Approver&quot; -&gt; &quot;Approve&quot; -&gt; &quot;Send the approved data somewhere&quot;, then you probably aren&#x27;t at MVP yet.
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paddy_mabout 1 year ago
I think of lowcode tools in two classes.<p>1. workflow tools like zapier or the BPM example. These focus on integration of external systems with minimal code.<p>2. A better interface than text to a complex model. Think CAD Software.<p>I built a lowcode UI for pandas called Buckaroo[1], along with a datatable, it works in the jupyter notebook. I wanted to make it quick to visualize and clean dataframes. I built the lowcode UI because I knew the transformations I wanted to apply to a dataframe, and I wanted a faster way to express it then typing code. Specifically I built the lowcode system to enable an expert user to express themselves more quickly, it&#x27;s not built as training wheels for beginners.<p>Here is how I built the system:<p>1. I adapted Peter Norvig&#x27;s lispy2.py [2] to read JSON, called it JLisp.<p>2. I built a simple react frontend that emits JSON commands in the format of JLisp.<p>3. It was very easy to define new lowcode commands, and have the frontend add them to the palette. Each command defines two methods &quot;transform&quot; which manipulates the dataframe, and &quot;transform_to_py&quot; which takes the same arguments but emits python code.<p>Adoption of my library in general, and the low code UI specifically has been very limited. I&#x27;m in the middle of plumbing the lowcode support back in after a refactor of other parts.<p>I would like to build a whole ecosystem around JLisp and Buckaroo. Specifically I have some &quot;auto-cleaning&quot; functionality that emits JLisp cleaning and normalization commands, these commands can then be editted in the UI (delete, edit parameters). It&#x27;s easier to emit JLisp than raw python syntax, it&#x27;s also much easier to make a UI to manipulate it.<p>Do you have a repo to look at? What usecase did you have in mind when you were building it?<p>If I were evaluating a low-code backend builder I&#x27;d be interested in the examples, and tests. Hopefully the tests would double as examples. For a Workflow type low-code-builder I&#x27;d be most interested in the cron functionality.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;paddymul&#x2F;buckaroo">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;paddymul&#x2F;buckaroo</a><p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;norvig.com&#x2F;lispy2.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;norvig.com&#x2F;lispy2.html</a>
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whalesaladabout 1 year ago
The code part of low code is the easy part. It&#x27;s integration with other things: API&#x27;s, database engines, etc. The point of low-code is to give people without a coding ability the ability to connect systems together and perform transforms on the way, wrapping a SQL database with unique business logic and routines, or respond to real world events in an easy fashion (user purchases product, object state transitions from X to Y, a file appears in an FTP directory or a cloud storage bucket, an email is received, etc)
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bananakittyabout 1 year ago
&gt; Have you used a low-code backend builder already for some ambitious&#x2F;cool problems&#x2F;use-cases?<p>Yes, proprietary integration tools that are the only sane way to integrate proprietary systems. You&#x27;d be better off learning some proprietary tool and selling your consulting services than rolling your own half-baked solution.
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eternityforestabout 1 year ago
I&#x27;ve worked pretty extensively with custom low-code stuff, but not for anything particularly technically ambitious.<p>I use it for simple unambitious systems in room escapes and similar, in situations where you want to be able to monitor the state of a system and make changes on the fly. The low code framework adds lots of debugging, monitoring, and logging hooks.<p>The system is very explicitly not meant to ever support any real programming.<p>You can&#x27;t even create reusable functions, there&#x27;s just IFTT style rules and Excel inspired =expressions.<p>Anything beyond that, Python already does, and I don&#x27;t wanna design a new DIY general language.<p>I think low-code has a lot of potential, as a way to connect pieces of existing code. Things like VVVV and Excel are really nice.<p>But when it tries to be as general as code, it has to be careful not to just become.... code. I&#x27;ll choose the common well known language over the &quot;just right&quot; special purpose language every time.<p>To me, Excel is the premier example of low-code success. It covers it&#x27;s range of use cases very well with just a few high level primitives.<p>The interesting part isn&#x27;t exactly the language although the way that they have a fairly standard and compatible batteries-included library is nice, it&#x27;s the premade structure and tools optimized to work with that structure.<p>It&#x27;s real &quot;software&quot; not a pure diy software kit.
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tootieabout 1 year ago
The only no&#x2F;low-code backends I&#x27;ve seen that are worth anything are data migration tools like fivetran that do ETL&#x2F;ELT from source data to target and let you apply some basic transformation. Even then, they have a very low ceiling before you need python or SQL to do anything useful.<p>Generally speaking, the golden rule of product development is to identify the problem first, then figure out what will solve it.
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whartungabout 1 year ago
My most productive time was early-mid &#x27;90s using a 4GL for green screen applications.<p>You could pound out a trivial screen or report in an hour. With SQL being a first class participant, you just interlaced SQL and logic to get your bidding done. Turn around was really fast. Having a functional TUI meant there was no time lost fiddling with placement or colors or any of that. The hardest part was squeezing everything on to a single 80x24 screen, and those high density screens were really rare. &quot;Any color you like, as long as it&#x27;s green.&quot;<p>I won&#x27;t say it was low code, but it was certainly a lot less code. If the application fit well into the &quot;CRUD screen&#x2F;reports&quot; paradigm, it was a lot less code. It was almost pure logic, with little need for formatting or UI. Mostly validation and deciding what fields to skip and when.<p>With flexibiliy comes complexity. For back office data processing, this solved an enormous swath of problems. It was pre-web, pre-json. It was not OO in any way. Code reuse was perhaps a bit more difficult that one may have liked, but at the same time, it wasn&#x27;t really that necessary. Each program did its own thing, rarely did that overlap with other programs, so less need to actually share logic.<p>Unix processes, CRON for scheduling. We had no need for a message queue, beyond stuffing things into tables and processing stuff in batches. Workflows based on end-of-day, end-of-week, and end-of-month processes.<p>Honestly, never felt constrained by the limitations of the system. Not really. And, despite all of the gains and modern UXs, how pretty, and flashy, and such it is, it&#x27;s just not that much better IMHO. Not for most back office use cases, not for the complexity and time it takes to create modern apps.<p>Still, its very hard to go back. As much as &quot;You&#x27;re not going to need it&quot;, it&#x27;s hard to leave that flexibility behind, &quot;Just in case&quot;.
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fantasyui-comabout 1 year ago
In context of creating hyper useful applications low code means 5 things.<p>1 Process manager, where you think in terms of users. Each step is a state machine. Ex: Anonymous visit has signup and contact. Registered user has update profile, upload video. To understand what process management means read up on the Mechnical Turk that played chess, and understand that a self checkout machine occasionally backed by a cashier is the same thing. Then realize you can email people asking them to do a task. And now you are programming not just with a CPU, but AI, and Humans in the circuit as well.<p>2 Drag and Drop Web page designer, here each of the states above, are expressed as web pages, that can shift state via UI interaction. ex. Clicking update profile, or upload video buttons. Think HyperCard, and look at the modern Bento Box Web Page Builders.<p>3 Visual Relational Database Builder, here you define tables, and their relationships, the form designer below will use those to help you make forms. See File Maker.<p>4 Form designer, just think of the form as a complex UI component. But, the button here, does not immediately shift state. So signup, must not shift state to registered until checks are made. Here a drag and drop visual programming language comes in to picture.<p>5 Drag and Drop Visual Programming Language, the click of a button is interpreted as a source of an object stream. Think packet oriented programming, of reactive functional programming, or RxJs, or Node-RED.<p>To answer your question: you evaluate a low-code builder by the ease with which it can generate entire website applications. And by generate, I mean code generation as well, because you want these programs to emit beautiful code that is indistinguishable from hand made code. For code generation see yeoman, especially AST parsing and that nifty var function: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;yeoman.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;yeoman.io&#x2F;</a><p>And of course any one of the 5 above is a good test, but all 5 in harmony are better.<p>As to non-visual&#x2F;tui tools, its bash. shells are low code tools take a look:<p>AT&amp;T Archives: The UNIX Operating System: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0</a><p>See here maybe as well: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;topics&#x2F;visual-programming">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;topics&#x2F;visual-programming</a>
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matt_sabout 1 year ago
Any low-code backend builder implies there is code being written. Functions&#x2F;methods like the example you have are literally part of most Math libraries in whatever language is in the backend - Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, Perl, etc.<p>You should consider finding business problems that need solving with no&#x2F;low code solutions which will lead you to what might need to be built. For example, if I&#x27;m building a no-code app for a Realtor persona then I might want various features that do a mathematical average.
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willsmith72about 1 year ago
do people use &quot;low-code backend builders&quot;? i&#x27;d never heard of that concept at all<p>if you&#x27;re testing the builder, you could just see how it goes answering leetcode problems, that sounds like the kind of problem you&#x27;re talking about with the array average example.<p>are there any pre-existing low-code backend builders out there to compare to? i&#x27;m trying to think when i would use it. is it a code generator or will i just call the thing without reading the code myself?
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sirspaceyabout 1 year ago
Check out Xano, a very mature tool that tackles that. They found an early fit supporting front end platforms like Glide, WeWeb, etc.
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gitgudabout 1 year ago
&gt; <i>If you would evaluate a low-code backend builder, how would you do it?</i><p>Firstly I would check if it’s open source. There’s a reason companies &amp; individuals use open source programming languages… because it’s way less risky. The same is true for a low-code language&#x2F;system.<p>Can I version it in git? Can it be reliably tested? Can I self-host it?<p>As far as functionality of the low-code: is it expressive? Can I make loops, variables, conditions? Can I bundle things into reusable Lego blocks? Can I use libraries or make fetch requests? Can I add environment variables? Can I add authentication, users, permissions?<p>There’s a lot to evaluate with a new system, low-code or not
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Tabular-Icebergabout 1 year ago
Sounds like you just invented PHP.<p>Use cases range from dinky, spam riddled guestbooks to all of Facebook.
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gt41about 1 year ago
how to open the hacked account on Facebook