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TED and inequality: The real story

471 pointsby Duffabout 13 years ago

41 comments

nkurzabout 13 years ago
The response is eloquent, but I think it sidesteps the point that concerns me and many others. Yes, for the reasons stated, this talk is not the right one to be highlighted on Ted.com. It's not censorship, it's a valid editorial decision.<p>But I think the real point is this quote from the NJ article: "But even if the talk was rated a home run, we couldn't release it, because it would be unquestionably regarded as out and out political. We're in the middle of an election year in the US. Your argument comes down firmly on the side of one party." (attributed to Chris Anderson)<p>Is this quote accurate, and does Ted have an official stance of avoiding controversial issues? The fear is not that Ted is in the pocket of any particular party, rather that the bounds of public debate are being set by parties (plural) who benefit from the absence of debate. If Ted isn't independent enough to start this discussion, who is?
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klochnerabout 13 years ago
If true, the aggressively planned PR campaign indicates that this was more than just a politically-sensitive topic, but rather a politically-motivated talk:<p><pre><code> He had hired a PR firm to promote the talk to MoveOn and others, and the PR firm warned us . . . </code></pre> TED should allow sensitive topics, but to allow others to use TED manipulatively as a pawn in the larger political debate subverts their mission and damages their credibility.
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rexreedabout 13 years ago
Maybe I'm politically tone deaf, but the talk didn't seem particularly partisan at all. Sure, it had a particular perspective more in alignment with one party than another, but wouldn't this talk be just as relevant in India and the UK as it is in the US, and in which case, not particularly partisan at all? Don't all TED talks have some bias to one perspective on the world or philosophy or another? I don't get why there's such furor over this.
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patdennisabout 13 years ago
As someone who writes Democratic talking points for a living, I would like to point out that the original TED talk sounded like something I would write for work.<p>I do wholeheartedly agree with the central thesis, but if I were to put together a (nonpolitical) TED talk on the subject I would've been a lot lighter on the rhetoric and heavier on the case studies.
brudgersabout 13 years ago
I wouldn't call this "the story behind" but rather "she said."<p>While I find it interesting that the author does not dispute the accuracy of the emails describing the talk as too controversial, what I find troubling is that the author insinuates that hiring a PR firm calls a person's character into question.<p>In 2010, the Sapling Foundation which owns TED spend more than $100,000 on PR:<p><a href="http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/943/943235545/943235545_201012_990PF.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/943/943235...</a> [page 7].<p>See also "Who Owns TED?" <a href="http://www.ted.com/pages/42" rel="nofollow">http://www.ted.com/pages/42</a>
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sams99about 13 years ago
I find it tragic that this "storm in a teacup" instigated by a very rich and powerful person even happened.<p>Saying TED shy away from controversy, or even defining this talk as huge controversy is tragic.<p>Take this talk for example: <a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/bryan_stevenson_we_need_to_talk_about_an_injustice.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ted.com/talks/bryan_stevenson_we_need_to_talk_abo...</a> -- stop reading this comment -- AND GO WATCH IT. It touches on many very critical issues in our society and the USA in particular that are marginalised and forgotten. If this talk was "censored" due to the fact it deals with "minority issues" I would understand a "censorship" claim.<p>The "tax the mega rich" talk was not powerful enough and did not properly deal with all the surrounding issues. As a person who watched <i>many</i> TED talks I also feel it was not at the right level. I also find it very disingenuous that the speaker did not tell anything about <i>his</i> story, what is he doing to change the state of affairs (besides talking at TED).
aleccoabout 13 years ago
Released video. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI</a><p>"This idea is an oracle of faith for republicans and seldom challenged by democrats." Clearly against bi-partisan and not pro-democrat.<p>Very bad move by TED. Also, the quality of <i>many</i> TED presentations is a joke so they can't pull that card.
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bgilroy26about 13 years ago
If you place the non-TED talk's transcript next to Hans Rosling's discussion about Global Poverty [1] it's easy to see the differences.<p>Mr. Rosling made a seminal talk that is one of the 3 or 4 that I think of when I think of TED. It was data-driven and multi-dimensional. At the same time, you're learning about the content -- global poverty through the eyes of a top UN advisor -- you're watching world-class data visualization.<p>Since their inception, TED has done a tremendous job staying on message. Most talks are given by people who are up to their elbows in the subject matter that they're talking about. This entrepreneur works in the business community, so there's relevance there, but that's pretty abstract. I would much rather this point be made by a union organizer.<p>The core message of the non-TED talk is a good one. That is the problem. The entrepreneur and the internet grassroots that have followed him are over the moon for it and are happy with the implementation that have here. If they were a bit less resistant to the criticism they've received, they could probably find a better way to get their message out.<p>For instance, how much more credible would it be if there were an enterprising union leader who could talk about his or her chapter's strategies, and who has measured the boost that their union members' employment has brought to their local community? In this age when many employers can't afford to invest in training employees who will leave their firms in 5 years, a union that provided job security to its members through training partnerships with local community colleges, and provided quality assurance to employers through licenses, and certifications in order to close the skills gap would be an inspiring organization. If they were providing each other with unemployment insurance and allowing the federal government to spend less money, that's a bi-partisan win!<p>An approach like that works at TED. One that can't be cobbled together in a weekend. These talks are almost always personal, representing years of on-the-ground activity. If they aren't given by <i>the</i> leader in the field they're given by someone with a unique perspective, like Jill Bolte Taylor, the stroke victim/neuroscientist who talked about the stroke she had.<p>This entrepreneur has a compelling message, one that I agree with, but his standpoint isn't special and his content hasn't progressed further than a well fleshed-out idea.<p>1. <a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_on_poverty.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_o...</a>
thaumaturgyabout 13 years ago
I watched the video after reading TED's response, and I'm skeptical of some of their claims, but I can also see why they didn't initially choose to publish it on their site.<p>The video is at <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI</a><p>Since it's short, I'll go over it point-by-point.<p><pre><code> 1. "It is astounding how significantly one idea can shape a society and its policies. Consider this one: if taxes on the rich go up, job creation will go down. This idea is an article of faith for Republicans, and seldom challenged by Democrats, and has indeed shaped much of the economic landscape." </code></pre> The first line of his talk is a bit fluffy, but I don't see anything else here that isn't objectively true. Supply-side economics and increased benefits for the rich are a major part of the Republican platform, and because this idea has been accepted as true by society at large, it is not being directly challenged by the Democrats. (Who, arguably, want just as much to protect the interests of the rich &#38; powerful as the Republicans do.)<p><pre><code> 2. "But sometimes the ideas that we are certain are true, are dead wrong. Consider that for thousands of years, humans believed that the Earth was the center of the universe. It's not, and an astronomer who still believed that it was, would do some pretty terrible astronomy. Likewise, a policymaker who believes that the rich are job creators and therefore should not be taxed, will do equally terrible policy." </code></pre> This is just bad rhetoric and bad logic, IMO. I get the point he's trying to make, but he's not making it well -- and this is where I begin to really understand TED's decision not to highlight his video on their front page.<p><pre><code> 3. "I have started or helped start dozens of companies, and initially hired lots of people, but if there was no one around who could afford to buy what we had to sell, all those companies, and all those jobs, would have evaporated." </code></pre> I can't agree more with this. I think this should be obvious to anybody that thinks about economics at all, and I think this is the absolutely massive achilles' heel for supply-side economics, the elephant in the room that people don't want to talk about.<p><pre><code> 4. "That's why I can say with confidence that rich people don't create jobs, nor do businesses large or small. Jobs are a consequence of a circle-of-life- like feedback loop between customers and businesses. And only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring. In this sense, an ordinary consumer is more of a job creator than a capitalist like me. That's why when business people take credit for creating jobs, it's a little bit like squirrels taking credit for evolution. (audience chuckles) It's actually the other way around. Anyone who's ever run a business knows that hiring more people is a course of last resort for capitalists. It's what we do if and only if rising consumer demand requires it. And in this sense, calling ourselves job creators isn't just inaccurate, it's disingenuous." </code></pre> Again, the delivery here is terrible, IMO, but I think his overall point is largely correct. But, there are exceptions. It would be hard to argue that PG, for example, isn't a "job creator" -- or at least a wealth creator. He, and others like him, are lowering the barriers to opportunity for many people and businesses. However, there still needs to be demand for the products and services those businesses offer -- as PG himself would tell you.<p>Would you, for example, deploy 100 times more servers than you thought you actually needed to meet demand for your SAAS or PAAS? No? Then why would somebody running a large corporation hire more people than they thought would be needed to meet consumer demand?<p><pre><code> 5. "That's why our existing policies are so upside-down. When the biggest tax exemptions, and lowest tax rates, benefit the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer. Since 1980, the share of income for the top 1% of Americans has more than tripled while our effective tax rates have gone down by 50%. If it was true that lower taxes for the rich and more wealth for the wealthy led to job creation, today we would be drowning in jobs. (audience laughter and applause) and yet unemployment and underemployment is at record highs." </code></pre> Again he kills an overall good point with a terrible statement -- unemployment and underemployment are high, yes, but nowhere near record highs.<p><pre><code> 6. "Another reason that this idea is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough super-rich people to power a great economy. Somebody like me makes hundreds or thousands of times as much as the median American, but I don't buy hundreds or thousands of times as much stuff. My family owns 3 cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and shirts a year like most American men, occasionally we go out to eat with friends. I can't buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new cars, any clothes, or enjoy any meals out. Nor can I make up for the falling consumption of the vast majority of middle-class families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs, and trapped by stagnant or declining wages." 7. "Here's an incredible fact: that if the typical American family still retained the same share of income that they did in 1970, they'd earn like $45,000 more a year. Imagine what our economy would be like if that were the case." 8. "Significant privileges have come to people like me, capitalists, for being perceived as job creators at the center of the economic universe, and the language and metaphors we use to defend the current economic and social arrangements is telling. It's a small jump from 'job creator' to 'The Creator'. (audience laughter) This language wasn't chosen by accident, and it's only honest to admit that when somebody like me calls themselves a job creator, we're not just describing how the economy works, but more particularly we're making a claim on status and privileges that we deserve." </code></pre> While perhaps true, I think that this part really detracts from his talk.<p><pre><code> 9. "Speaking of special privileges, the extraordinary differential between the 15% tax rate that capitalists pay on carried interest, dividends, and capital gains, and the 35% top marginal rate on work that ordinary Americans pay, is kind of hard to justify without a touch of deification." </code></pre> Man, this is just so bad right here. He really ruins his talk with this. Stick to the points, stick to the points, stick to the points.<p><pre><code> 10. "We've had it backwards for the last 30 years. Rich people like me don't create jobs. Jobs are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop between customers and businesses. And, when the middle-class thrives, businesses grow and hire, and owners profit. That's why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is such a fantastic deal for the middle class and the rich. So, ladies and gentlemen, here's an idea worth spreading: in a capitalist economy, the true job creators are middle-class consumers, and taxing the rich to make investments to make the middle class grow and thrive is the single shrewdest thing we can do for the middle class, for the poor, and for the rich. Thank you." </code></pre> I really think his conclusion here is a little bit overwrought. Again, I agree with what he's saying, but the delivery, especially the references to TED's "ideas worth spreading", is just unnecessary and superfluous.<p>As for TED's response, they justified their decision not to post the video with several points: that it was unnecessarily partisan, that it was unconvincing, and that it was mediocre.<p>I do not see that it was unnecessarily partisan at all. He mentions political parties exactly once, at the beginning of his talk, and I don't think he said anything there that wasn't true.<p>But, I could agree that his talk was unconvincing to anyone who steadfastly believes in supply-side economics. He didn't present facts well enough, and his talk was salted and peppered with too much opinion, hyperbole, and fluff.<p>And, I agree wholeheartedly that it was mediocre. Compared to the talks featured on TED's home page, it just doesn't have the substance, the impact, the original research, or the delivery that those talks have. It's just not good enough of a talk. He's got good points. He clearly has something to say, and I would love nothing more than to hear more discussion like this in our national politics, instead of continuing to take a cargo-cult approach towards heaping benefits on the wealthiest class. However, he's a terrible speaker, and his talk in general needs a lot of work.<p>(39 comments on this thread when I started writing this, and none actually discussing the content of the video -- tsk.)<p>(edit: formatting.)
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spacemanakiabout 13 years ago
What's up with the editorializing of the title? If you're going to post stuff that's on the edge of being too political for HN I think leaving the headline intact is the best approach.<p><i>edit</i> it's been fixed, but for reference the original title had something in it about "astroturfing in action"
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twelvechairsabout 13 years ago
&#62; The audience at TED who heard it live... gave it, on average, mediocre ratings.<p>Without disputing the 'ratings' (whatever these may be), its pretty obvious from the youtube video that the actual audience response is very positive rather than mediocre (the majority of the audience seem to give a standing ovation and there is pretty emphatic applause all around).
steve8918about 13 years ago
First and foremost, from the video that was posted, the talk in question was not good at all. As a speaker, Nick Hanauer is not very polished and has this halting manner of speaking that is fairly irritating. It sounds like a speech that a high school student would make.<p>This was too easy of a decision to not run this, because it was really terrible. Instead of bitching and moaning about censorship, get a better speaker to talk about income equality. Get a more dynamic speaker to present a better-researched and better written speech, and then see what happens. But THIS particular speech is not something that people should be rallying behind, because it's really bad.
dkhenryabout 13 years ago
Its amazing what a little truth sheds on an otherwise perfect angry mob. After hearing from both sides I hope those who accused TED of censorship will be kind enough to apologise.
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daenzabout 13 years ago
<p><pre><code> And we try to steer clear of talks that are bound to descend into the same dismal partisan head-butting people can find every day elsewhere in the media. </code></pre> I read that as "it is controversial, so we don't want to talk about that." If some new science showed that human consciousness begins at X days after conception, would that not be aired because it is a hot-button topic too?
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mcantelonabout 13 years ago
"TED: politically safe ideas worth spreading."
Tossrockabout 13 years ago
Relevant pg essay: <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html</a><p>The power of PR can be pretty amazing sometimes. Especially scary given the susceptibility of the masses (ie, the Reddit firestorm).
moleculeabout 13 years ago
Going out of the way to not seem partisan has the same effect as being partisan.
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smsm42about 13 years ago
As always, lie travels 10 times around the world while the truth is putting its shoes on. I've encountered dozens of references already that Powers That Be and their minions at TED were afraid to talk about something that might piss of the all-powerful 1%, and that of course proves all conspiracy theories out there and gives birth to a dozen of new ones. But I wonder if any of these people will ever hear the real story.
389401aabout 13 years ago
It's kind of funny to hear wealthy individuals complaining about not taxing their class proportionally. As if they are saying "This is wrong. But unless the government tells us we have to pay, we're still not going to pay."<p>Why don't these individuals, e.g. Buffett, this TED speaker, and others, just lead by example. Overpay their taxes to amount to whatever they think is fair.<p>Why do they have to wait for the government to tell them they must pay?<p>Or they say they will pay more only if other wealthy individuals do the same.<p>Either they believe in paying a bigger share or they don't.<p>This "I'm not going to do it unless he does too" attitude is child-like behaviour.
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hristovabout 13 years ago
Here is a wonderful little quote from the article:<p>"Also, for the record, we have never sought advice from any of our advertisers on what we carry editorially. To anyone who knows how TED operates, or who has observed the noncommercial look and feel of the website, the notion that we would is laughable."<p>For anybody that knows how to read press releases, this speaks volumes. It is indignant and righteous and yet at the same time it clearly leaves a loophole one can use to back out of the statement at a later date. Hint: one does not always have to seek advise to receive it. Sometimes the "advice" just comes to you.
pippyabout 13 years ago
Both parties are at fault here.<p>* The attendee for hiring a PR firm to create commotion<p>* TED for not being transparent<p>TED's decision, based on the elections or quality is superfluous. The fact is they weren't up front about it. If TED took its reputation seriously it would be transparent in all aspects of video selection. If it isn't censorship, they wouldn't be in this situation. Personally the slides I read were thought provoking, which is what TED was about (despite some graphs not labeling their Y access correctly).<p>Hiring a PR firm for a smear campaign on a non profit is simply a dick move. I shouldn't have to elaborate on that.
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perspectivelessabout 13 years ago
Ted is a circle jerk for rich people of course they don't want to hear about inequality.
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trotskyabout 13 years ago
astroturfing (ˈæstrəʊˌtɜːfɪŋ)<p>— n a PR tactic used in politics and advertising in which actors are paid to display overt and apparently spontaneous grassroots support for a particular product, policy, or event
jonahabout 13 years ago
FWIW, Richard Wilkinson's TED talk "How economic inequality harms societies"[1] makes a far superior argument. It's laden with original research, data, and graphs, lots of graphs. :D<p>[1] <a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html</a>
sbierwagenabout 13 years ago
Why was he even pitching this talk to TED, a conference about rich people, for other rich people?<p>That would be like me pitching a show to Fox News about how white christian males are scum and should be burned for fuel. It's the wrong message, for the wrong audience.
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joejohnsonabout 13 years ago
It seems to me that TED was embarassed by this talk, not because they disagree with the conclusions, but just because the speaker was so unbearable to watch, and TED probably felt that he came off a little weird.
Aftershock21about 13 years ago
All this non productive discussion aside, Can Hackers solve this problem ? Entrepreneurs take risk and should be rewarded accordingly. However not all Rich people are Entrepreneurs. Some just keep their money in the bank and stagnate the economy.<p>How about creating Soft-Tax system, where Rich people are taxed Soft-Tax in addition to regular Tax. Soft-Tax would be a separate bank account where Rich must transfer their capital for Entrepreneurial work. If they don't use that money for funding new businesses Soft-Tax would turn into regular Tax after some deadline.
aaronhalmost 13 years ago
The abdication of duty to truth in favor of balancing competing ideas is a disease. Sometimes some ideas are just empirically more correct and some are just empirically more incorrect. If some partisans happen to hold the more correct view, and others happen hold the more incorrect view, then to speak the correct view cannot avoid being incidentally partisan. To therefore preclude that speech as "partisan" is ridiculous.
johngaltabout 13 years ago
I didn't think the talk itself was needlessly partisan. Only reason I'd say it shouldn't be posted is that a basic intro to keynesian economics isn't particularly new or noteworthy.<p>If I gave a TED talk that just was a fisher-price version of Bastiat's broken window, should it be aired? Should I call it censorship if it wasn't?
alan_cxabout 13 years ago
Isn't it up to "me" to decide what is partisan and what is or is not convincing?<p>Heh, I suppose the devil's "quality" control argument slides right in.
mkopinskyabout 13 years ago
Youtube's slow update of view counts + a video that goes very and is very controversial very quickly =<p>303 views<p>2,115 likes, 837 dislikes
Codhisattvaabout 13 years ago
Brilliant move by both parties to make this talk more popular than if it had just been released normally.<p>Yes his presentation is not up to snuff as the typical TED speaker. So a quiet YouTube release and shitstorm of trumped up controversy work out great for getting the message out:<p>"In a consumption driven economy, the middle class is more important than the elite class."
sakura_kabout 13 years ago
This story is too hot for Safari on iPad. Every time I click the link, it crashes.
Lednakashimabout 13 years ago
$6000 dollar ticket price. That it is the real inequality.
Budabout 13 years ago
TED claims the talk in question was "needlessly partisan".<p>That's almost right; just change "less" to "full".<p>When a problem has overwhelmingly been created by one party, then yeah, of course you're going to have to be "partisan" to address it.
tallpapababout 13 years ago
tl;dr; Unpolished speaker is right.
malachismithabout 13 years ago
Censorship is censorship. End of story.
borismabout 13 years ago
<i>If taxes on the rich go up, job creation will go down.<p>This idea is an article of faith for republicans and seldom challenged by democrats and has shaped much of today's economic landscape.</i><p>What's so f*cking partisan about it?
horseheadabout 13 years ago
It sounds like a case of activist journalism, or a reporter got duped into thinking some injustice was carried out by TED. The power of media at play, folks.<p>Maybe i'll have to go back and actually watch the speech now. Funny, though, how this fellow, if he did feel slighted by TED and sought to get his speech publicized, is now getting all this attention ... Seems he's the beneficiary of a lot of interest at TED's expense.
wavephormabout 13 years ago
This sounds like the typical hogwash from any other politically aligned media outlet. Am I reading a Fox News editorial? Just post the video and let "the internet" make the decision. If you think you think you can censor opinion in the modern world then you are flat-out wrong.
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DavidAbramsabout 13 years ago
"Astroturfing"?<p>Come on, use real words that mean something.
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