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How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

633 pointsby olieidelabout 1 year ago

61 comments

nicbouabout 1 year ago
I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country.<p>Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark.<p>I cannot overstate how terrible German bureaucracy is, and how defeating it is to deal with it. A lot of people give up and leave the country over it.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;allaboutberlin.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;allaboutberlin.com</a>
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SeanLukeabout 1 year ago
For those of you griping about German bureaucracy I urge you to come to Italy to learn just how good you have it.<p>My wife is Italian and wanted to get married in her small home town. In order for her to get married to an American in her home town required paperwork that bordered on the Kafkaesque. We had to show up at the Italian embassy in Washington DC (fortunately we live there!) with proof and witnesses that I was not already married, plus another ten pages of forms. We had multiple stages of notorization. And we had to have forms signed by <i>other witnesses</i> vouching for the truthfulness of our witnesses. In Italy we had to draw up a long declaration of vows in italian -- in Italy, a wedding is a contract -- and then even though I wrote the vows <i>myself</i> in Italian, just because I am American we had to have it translated <i>by someone else</i> back into English, by hand, just so I understood the vows I had myself written. We then had to contract someone to read the vows out loud in English at the ceremony so I understood my own words.<p>At every step on the way, the bureaucrats apologized for the bureaucracy and asked us the same question, over and over and over again: &quot;Why don&#x27;t you just get married in the US?&quot;<p>Don&#x27;t get me started on the *hilarious* complexity of getting a Permesso di Soggiorno (sort of an Italian Green Card) this year. I applied this past July and there are still more steps to do.
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xxmarkuskiabout 1 year ago
To be honest, I don&#x27;t think much of notaries and believe that they stifle innovation and harm the German economy, especially SMEs, but also clubs and citizens. For example, the purchase or sale of a property can only be carried out with a notary who reads the purchase contract for both parties. For this service, he charges a fee of around 1.5% of the sale price. The entire profession is strictly protected by law and there is no competition.
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fxtentacleabout 1 year ago
This article seems to be new, but the info in it appears to be very outdated.<p>1. Most startups now create an UG which has most of the GmbH benefits and protections, but only negligible cost.<p>2. The handelsregister website is deprecated. It&#x27;s replacement is quite nice and fast.<p>Their section 2b also doesn&#x27;t apply for UG because it&#x27;s so cheap there is no need for trickery.<p>Their section about issues finding a bank seem weird to me. I just took the paper slip from the notary office and walked over to Deutsche Bank (the largest mainstream bank) and it took them only a few minutes to set up the account. Then after the card arrived in the mail, I walked back there, paid in the money and gave the paper confirmation from them to the notary guy. I&#x27;m not sure how you could make it any easier.<p>The only thing where I agree is that the spam is a problem.
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robert_fossabout 1 year ago
Having founded a company in Germany, I would never under any circumstances do it again.<p>Notaries should not exist, and could be replaced by a simple website.<p>It&#x27;s all incredibly tedious and slow, and there are lots of reoccurring work and fees. Closing a company takes 2-3 years too, even if there are no irregularities.
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branczabout 1 year ago
Having gone through this a couple of times, I&#x27;ll say that all of this is true, but in practice, I find the actual founding process not very complicated with neo-banks that understand the founding process well. I just founded a new GmbH last week, and it took 2 days in total.<p>One more thing I&#x27;d recommend doing before going to a notary though is get a &quot;Vorabstellungnahme&quot; from IHK to ensure that they won&#x27;t reject your company name which would create delays and additional notary cost. It costs some money, but is worth ensuring it doesn&#x27;t cause chaos afterwards.<p>1. Get &quot;Vorabstellungnahme&quot; from IHK, takes a few hours.<p>2. E-mail notary (yes I&#x27;ve worked with them a couple times, that might speed up their response time), get pre-fab founding docs within a few hours, appointment next day. Digital version of the founding docs will be available within a few hours.<p>3. Create account with Qonto or something equivalent, there&#x27;s an explicit configuration for your notary email, so they will take care of providing proof of the starting capital.<p>4. Transfer starting capital.<p>5. Notary hands in Handelsregisteranmeldung, sends you a copy and upload it to your bank.<p>In practice, I find the founding process not complicated, but the day-to-day operation, bookkeeping, taxes, etc. way more painful.<p>Founding a GmbH wholly owned by a Delaware C-Corp, however, is intensely painful, practically no bank wants to work with you, and notaries aren&#x27;t enough, you need to work with apostilles (international notaries). I highly recommend working with a law firm to set this up correctly but expect easily upwards of $10k between lawyer, apostille, and bank account costs.
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weinzierlabout 1 year ago
As a German I agree with the gist: Germany is overly buerocratic and not startup friendly.<p>When it comes to founding a company the author overcomplicates things, however. This is OK when you want to study the process, or want to become an expert in this and maybe make a business out of it.<p>If you just want a company get started, just buy a ready made one. There are specialized lawyers that always keep a pool of freshly founded companies to sell - exactly for that purpose. These companies are brand new, usually just a couple of weeks old and have no significant history. They have generic names and you can decide on a proper name later.<p>If you don&#x27;t have anyone to advise you and insist finding a suitable lawyer on your own: Go to Germany&#x27;s central company register (Handelsregister) and research startups in your field. The lawyers and law firms specialized in selling new companies will stick out pretty quickly to you.
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chironjitabout 1 year ago
Having lived here for 1.5 years, I can say that beraucracy in germany basically works in the sense of how bureaucracy in other lesser third world countries work.<p>Basically, the system works in general for the average population but is broken such that it affects most those at the margins (for example, the rich, the poor, those entrepreneurial, etc).<p>In other countries, when this happens, you see the rich paying their way to access while the poor generally suffer until some populist movement comes and promises to save them.<p>It&#x27;s thus really not that surprising, I just had yo change my view on where I placed each country in this developed&#x2F;developing country mental model
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bouncingabout 1 year ago
Not to brag, but there are so few things to actually feel some civic pride for in America, and business registration is one of them, so I guess we have that.<p>I can get an IRS EIN (tax ID), register an LLC, obtain a sales tax license (only required for selling stuff), and open a business checking account in about 2 hours in Colorado. Someone who knows what they’re doing and doesn’t spend time researching banking options could probably get it all done in 30 minutes.<p>Alternatively, a legal services company will do it all for you for about $500. If you have partners and want multiple shareholders, the price jumps to about $1000, but you can also do that on your own.
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rsp1984about 1 year ago
The worst part of being a founder in Germany is not even the bureaucracy (even though it is just as bad as described), it&#x27;s that everybody wants money from you <i>all the time</i>:<p>- For services that you never signed up for (there are certain institutions in Germany that can bill you for stuff you neither want nor need but they have the full force of the government behind them): IHK, GEZ (Rundfunk), Verwaltungsberufsgenossenschaft (in case white collar workers hurt themselves by typing on the keyboard...). If you refuse to pay, they can literally put you in jail.<p>- For services whose necessity is entirely generated by the government: 1k EUR for the Notary to read you some boilerplate text. 500 EUR per month for bookkeeping services (govt creates all these arcane rules to make sure you never want to do it yourself). Plus many legal bills because German business and employment law is a minefield and you don&#x27;t want to blow yourself up.<p>- For tax on imagined revenue that you didn&#x27;t even realise yet. Yes, the govt. literally makes things up and says &quot;that&#x27;s probably going to be your revenue this year and you owe us tax on that&quot;.<p>If you&#x27;re a big company with large predictable revenue and departments of people to deal with this, I guess it&#x27;s tolerable, but there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever why the vast majority of successful startups exist outside of Germany.
hnhgabout 1 year ago
There is also a brutal and inflexible exit tax. Should you decide to leave Germany, even temporarily, you will be faced with a tax of ~30% of the current valuation of your worldwide shareholdings (in companies in which you have &gt;1% ownership). I commented on this in more detail in another post a while back:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39786934#39788110">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39786934#39788110</a><p>In the author&#x27;s case, because he is using a holding company, his exit tax burden will be doubled!
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OtherShrezzingabout 1 year ago
Minimum initial share capital of €12,500 to found a company where liability is limited to the firm seems like a very regressive impediment to business. For comparison in the UK, there&#x27;s a £12 registration fee, and a £1 (one pound) minimum initial share capital. It must put limited liability out of reach of so many people.
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mdekkersabout 1 year ago
I founded a business in Germany, and the tax departments decided to asses me for 2024 to an amount of 100% of my combined 2020-2022 turnover. Instopped trading halfway through 2023, abd there will be no turnover for 2024. I currently have a tax “debt” that is literally more money than the business ever _collected_ over it’s entire existence.<p>It is nearly impossible to find a tax lawyer that is willing to take on the case, and my accountant keeps telling me that there is nothing to do except pay up and then wait for the refund. I don’t now have, or ever had in the past, the kind of money they are demanding. The anxiety that this situation has been causing for the past year and a half (they did a similar stunt for 2023) has become unbearable - I am threatened with personal bankruptcy and jail time for taxes I don’t even owe - and I often consider the easy way out.<p>I recently had to appear, in person, at the tax office (I reside on the other side if Europe now, but was forced to make the trip). There are no options to send a representative. You must make declarations in person, like its 1734.<p>Living in Germany and running a business there is turning out to be the biggest mistake of my life.
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onnimonniabout 1 year ago
Thanks for the great blog post.<p>I&#x27;m very happy to be living and building business in Estonia instead. Establishing the company is easy and everything else except KYC meeting in bank can be done online. Also in Estonia companies don&#x27;t pay any taxes on yearly profits. Almost all of the government officials speak fluent English except in the case where I wanted to have company owned car. Would highly recommend this option for others too if you can relocate easily. They even changed the rules in 2023 and now even 1€ initial capital is enough.
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tdullienabout 1 year ago
I have founded a company in Germany in 2004 and sold it to Google in 2011. I started an AG in Switzerland in 2019 and organized a Delaware-Flip therafter.<p>Most of the described steps are also necessary for a Delaware incorporation, and I found the process of incorporating a nothingburger.<p>1) The choice between a limited liability construct or a pass-through construct exists everywhere. My advice was always: Separate the biz from you personally, always use the non-pass-through option unless you really know what you&#x27;re doing. Complexity and pain of a GmbH is identical to Delaware corp.<p>2) picking a new name that isn&#x27;t in any dictionary is generally good advice, no matter what your jurisdiction is. We originally incorporated as SABRE Security, then years late got into a trademark dispute and had to change names. The fact that the Handelsregister can reject particularly poor names shouldn&#x27;t be an obstacle.<p>3) I find getting riled up about the share capital a bit weird. I have never seen anyone struggle with that.<p>4) we can debate the utility of the notary public system in Germany, but this is hardly an obstacle.<p>5) Setting up a bank account with a GmbH iG in Germany is easy and quick with any of your local savings banks. These are non-profit banks with the explicit charter to help local businesses. Not sure what the author did wrong.<p>6&#x2F;7&#x2F;8) yes you need to pay in the share capital and prove you&#x27;ve done so, and get the reply from the Handelsregister.<p>9ff) yes you need tax and VAT IDs. Yes you need someone to do your books and taxes. True in Delaware, true in Germany, true in Switzerland.<p>All in all, the article reads super-whiny. I mean the author even complains that the notary uses your passport to authenticate you (?!).<p>I have been through a German GmbH, a Swiss AG, and a Delaware C-Corp with VCs, and I can tell you: The bureaucracy is pretty similar. And you will need help with taxes, accounting, legal compliance etc. And yes, it&#x27;d be nicer if all of this was simpler, fewer middlemen and lawyers involved, etc. - but this article paints things that are the absolute basics in any of the big jurisdictions as nefarious obstacles.
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blablabla123about 1 year ago
Fun fact, GmbH is not about protection of getting sued. (Because there&#x27;s &quot;Durchgriffshaftung&quot;) It&#x27;s useful for companies that trade physical goods and e.g. when a vendor that was already paid got bankrupt it won&#x27;t affect the finances of the founders. Although it shows to the outside world that 25 k€ have been paid and it&#x27;s not a 1€ company. But in case of impeding bankruptcy it must either be resolved or declared otherwise things go bad. (&quot;Insolvenzverschleppung&quot; - the punishments are a little draconic) GmbH is really a lot of effort to maintain and expensive. The paperwork for UG &quot;Mini GmbH&quot; is basically the same. If I would try co-founding again, I&#x27;d probably not do a UG or GmbH.
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RicoElectricoabout 1 year ago
I wonder: why EU did not try to somewhat harmonize company law? I can understand that things like tax code, penal code would not benefit from unification across disparate societies, but companies seem like a ripe target. This should have begun 20 or so years ago.
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rurbanabout 1 year ago
This is only about founding a GmbH. Only to avoid high liabilities. (&quot;beschraenkte Haftung&quot;)<p>A normal simple Einzelunternehmen is trivial. I needed about 2h just to avoid the trap of the Gewerbesteuerpflicht (tip: system software counts as freies gewerbe, application software development not!), went to the &quot;Steuerbehoerde&quot; (local tax office) and that was it. No &quot;buchhalter&quot;, just Online Elster 4x a year for the USt, and 1x a year for the ESt. Same as in the US or every other state. I did that in 3 countries so far. The US was easiest.<p>An engineering office is more complicated because of additional mandatory expensive IHK insurances and membership fees. TKK (Techniker Krankenkasse) is always better
4adabout 1 year ago
As an EU citizen, it&#x27;s easier to open an LLC in the US, without even stepping a foot in the US than opening an LLC in the EU.<p>The most depressing thing is that EU citizens don&#x27;t even see any problem with that.
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tymmabout 1 year ago
My primary concern with establishing a company in Germany isn&#x27;t the bureaucracy—it&#x27;s the unreasonable exit tax. This tax feels like a trap because it&#x27;s levied on the company&#x27;s valuation, not its revenue, effectively anchoring businesses to Germany. I&#x27;m curious about the preferred destinations for entrepreneurs looking to avoid this issue. Do most opt for the Netherlands or Ireland, or is there another popular choice?
deweyabout 1 year ago
I was talking with a friend yesterday who asked me about &quot;de-mail&quot; and &quot;gmx.de&quot;, both words I haven&#x27;t heard in many years.<p>Apparently if you want to contact the pension insurance (Rentenversicherung) and you don&#x27;t want to call them (Maybe because you don&#x27;t speak german), or send a paper letter you&#x27;ll have to sign up for this &quot;secure email, but not really email&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;De-Mail" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;De-Mail</a>) service. It costs a small fee to set up (10 Euros), or a bit cheaper if you are listed in the &quot;public de-mail phone book&quot; (6 Euros) and you have to verify yourself through a government ID.<p>If you are not a german citizen you of course don&#x27;t have this ID card and can&#x27;t do the verification online, that means that you now have to go to one of the few places in the city where you can verify yourself for the service. Some of them are just small corner stores that usually also do postal services.<p>Very bizarre experience, just to get some simple answers related to your pension.
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fl7305about 1 year ago
What does the opposite look like in Germany? Meaning, shutting down a Gmbh?<p>In Sweden, you can get this done in a matter of days, where you sell the shares of your corporation for the net value minus a fee of about $1000.
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heipeiabout 1 year ago
Everything written in this article is true, but there are as usual more nuances to all of these. One of the primary reasons for me to go with a GmbH (and a holding) was the expectation of excess profits that I&#x27;d want to reinvest instead of drawing a salary. The other neat aspect of stacking a holding company on top of the operating company is that capital gains are not taxed in the event of a sale. That goes for investing into ETFs for example, but more importantly if the holding company ever sells the operating company then that sale is tax-free for the holding company. The ultimate owner is then able to pay out the proceeds and only be taxed using his personal capital gains tax rate (25%-ish).
quititabout 1 year ago
When it comes to European bureaucracy:<p>If we put Germany on one end of the scale and put Estonia on the other end, most of Europe is going to be placed near Germany. Germany isn&#x27;t the outlier, Estonia is.<p>Also one would be mistaken to believe that these bureaucratic processes produce a better result - there&#x27;s already numerous examples where weaknesses in these systems have been exploited. One recent example exploits the requirement for applicants to supply their own photos. In this case people who looked somewhat alike used computer graphics to merge facial features to produce a mid-point headshot, resulting in one identity that worked for two individuals.
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drooopyabout 1 year ago
I&#x27;ve heard similar Kafkaesque stories from German relatives of mine. And from what I gather, most digitalization efforts by state and federal government essentially resulted in digitizing existing bureaucratic procedures.
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kaashifabout 1 year ago
&gt; And then, if you pay it out from Magic Holding GmbH to you personally, then yes, you pay ~26% capital gains tax – but the huge benefit here is that it could accrue investment returns in the meantime!<p>This isn&#x27;t an optimisation and doesn&#x27;t matter unless I&#x27;m misunderstanding what is being suggested. Multiplication is commutative so it doesn&#x27;t matter if you pay the taxes before or after accruing returns, as long as your goal is to get that money to you.<p>$100 * 0.5 (for 50% income tax) * 2 (for 100% investment return) = $100 whichever order you do the multiplication.
sliqabout 1 year ago
German here. The example with the Kebap owner is -probably- not like it seems, because there are usually two ways how it works:<p>1. these kind of stores are technically owned and legally run by somebody who just made the paperwork and gave the finances. The people working there dont do any paperwork, and of course they cannot as they often (like in the vietnamese produce stores) dont speak german on a level that would allow to fill out paperwork.<p>2. Lots of smaller business actually didnt fill out anything, and surpprisingly it somehow works for them, sometimes for years, even in busy areas, i mean they serve hundreds of customers per day but never filed any invoices, only accept cash, nobody speaks german and they dont have any documents. It&#x27;s fascinating. There are a lot of rules in Germany (of course) when you serve food or alcohol or operate at night or have tables and chairs, and i can tell you it&#x27;s not even legal to NOT have toilet or to not have prices on the menu, but well, they still run the business, probably without even knowing all the rules.<p>We can learn from them I think, just SHIP IT!
stevoskiabout 1 year ago
I lived in Germany for years. I listened to Germans gripe about how bureaucratic it was to do things there like open and run a business.<p>Then I moved to Spain and started a company there.<p>Germans, your country has NOTHING on Spain when it comes to pointless, confusing bureaucracy.<p>Your country, your laws and rules and the application of them are BLISS compared to Spain.
yieldcrvabout 1 year ago
&gt; Two important points on how to save time here!<p>&gt;. International “startup” banks like Wise generally don’t support this, so don’t even try! You’ll lose multiple days going back and forth with their support, like I did. You can open a Wise bank account later when you’re properly incorporated.<p>The real optimization is not using Germany companies to begin with.<p>I&#x27;m a US citizen and US resident, I had some German limited partners in a small hedge fund several years back. The offshore feeder was in the Cayman Islands, alongside the Master Fund. Both had bank accounts only in US banks. (All forms with IRS and other regulators filed no problems there, good to have a business bank familiar with these things.)<p>Now to those particular investors, wiring money to a foreign bank with foreign transaction needs was too much for them. The US being a foreign bank from their perspective. They just wanted to use SEPA transactions and transaction instructions that they are familiar with, which are (potentially) instant.<p>This US citizen was able to sign up the Cayman Islands feeder into Wise for an EU bank account no problem, had SEPA details no problem. Makes it super easy to swap over to USD with few fees and wire it to the primary bank account.<p>Its also important to note that Wise has high transaction limits. Like $1,000,000 per transaction is the limit, its not a daily limit. so even if you get a large LP its not really a limit just multiple transactions. Not perfect, but way better than many other fintech app solutions for casual use.<p>Before Wise it was nearly impossible for an American to get real Eurozone banking easily after FATCA treaty was ratified. But with Wise it was pretty quick maybe 1 business day with support in their business sign up.<p>One point against Wise is that their Terms of Service are very restrictive. There are lots of legal activities you&#x27;re not supposed to do with them.
Major_Groovesabout 1 year ago
I experienced the same thing, and wrote nearly the same article two years ago: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;major-grooves.medium.com&#x2F;just-how-complicated-could-it-be-to-register-a-german-company-e5eb6e50db79" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;major-grooves.medium.com&#x2F;just-how-complicated-could-...</a><p>Yes I know we can register a UG, but in the end you don&#x27;t. And it is not just the share capital that is annoying it is <i>everything</i> else.<p>It literally costs 10x more to do the bookkeeping for a German company vs a UK one. Plus getting investors is much more difficult because of the notary requirements.<p>We used a SPV for our first round, but even that is annoying. I had some angel investors pull out purely because we are a German GmbH.
anovikovabout 1 year ago
What is the upside of opening a company there if you can incorporate in a EU country with much much lower taxation say Cyprus or, you have a EU citizenship and the company is in IT field, Malta, and pay just 5% tax (and 0% tax on dividends from it if you move there and become a tax resident)? It effectively means increasing your income 2x-2.4x depending on how high the revenue is, vs paying 30% profit tax and then on dividends, 45% personal income tax in Germany. While still enjoying all the same access to funding and open EU market as in Germany.<p>Another much closer and cheaper to run option is Hungary where company profit tax is 9% and personal income tax is 15%, still providing up to 2x higher net personal income on same revenue vs Germany.
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caseysoftwareabout 1 year ago
That&#x27;s nuts. I created a pair of LLCs in Texas in &#x27;22 and the registration process was $300 (each), submitting one form, and saving the resulting pdf.<p>Starting their bank accounts was another matter though as they wanted the pdf from above and Articles of Incorporation and&#x2F;or an Operating Agreement, neither of which was required by the state. But the document itself wasn&#x27;t important as my banker googled to find a one-page version, emailed me the link, I filled in my details, and printed it. :|<p>Now once a year, I have to go online and report my annual revenue. And because I fall under the minimum, the rate is 0% unless I file it late, then it&#x27;s a $50 late fee.
khaomungaiabout 1 year ago
Yes, it&#x27;s really painful here in Germany. I&#x27;ve heard in Portugal it&#x27;s pretty easy.<p>Any recommendations what would be the best place to found a company for someone who&#x27;s living in Germany?
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type0about 1 year ago
The national slogan of Germans is &quot;Papiere, bitte!&quot;
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nforgeritabout 1 year ago
German solo-founder here who just gave up this shitshow and moved to Estonia:<p>&gt; Estimate your revenue at 0€ for now unless you have real reason to believe otherwise (do you have paying customers lined up already? probably not). That way, you only have to pay corporate tax at the end of the year based on your actual profit (vs. having to prepay tax every quarter).<p>This is funny. I tried to set my revenue to 0 in the beginning and the tax authority simply set it to 60k (they couldn&#x27;t even tell me where this number came from). After a couple of harsh phone calls (from their end, they were yelling) they simply kept it and told me I could file a &quot;Verwaltungsklage&quot;. Of course, they (and IHK) derive the quarterly pre-taxes from that and didn&#x27;t give a rats ass if I actually made any revenue. I got my money back a year later (which got worse and worse over time). Simply kills you, If you have to pay the bills and try to route your little boat through the stormy seas. Several times I spontaneously had to credit 2-3k EUR to get my customers to shorten the term of payment.<p>&gt; IHK: Domains are not allowed.<p>This is funny as well because my company name was a domain name. IHK noticed that and I told them (on phone w&#x2F;o any proof) that it&#x27;s mine and they were okay.<p>The rest, I&#x27;d say is batshit crazy bureaucratic but somehow manageable. Germany is just not a good spot for &quot;some SaaS idea&quot; or maybe not even for bigger ideas as well anymore. At least not until they radically streamline their bureaucracy (which depends on radically professionalized politics which is not realistic at this time).<p>PS: Founding a company made me stop believing in &quot;Social Market Economy&quot; (German self-label) since the taxation system and social systems allow for amazing things once you&#x27;re out of the employee system.<p>Edit: Typos and grammatical mistakes.
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frankjrabout 1 year ago
Not sure if that&#x27;s common in Germany but you can use services which offer &quot;empty&quot; but legally established companies and you just change the name.
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leonryabout 1 year ago
I like that the author gives a detailed step-by-step process <i>with caveats</i> on the way along. However, I believe it is slowly improving. Namely, there is an online service (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;online-verfahren.notar.de&#x2F;ov&#x2F;home" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;online-verfahren.notar.de&#x2F;ov&#x2F;home</a>) that may somewhat ease the process (steps 2–4 &amp; 8).
lifestyleguruabout 1 year ago
Founding a company in Germany?! Simply living there and working on employment contract is complicated enough. Do not attempt it without lawyer parents.
i_am_a_peasantabout 1 year ago
Literally the only good thing about germany are the salaries compared to the rest of europe but even that is becoming less great nowadays.
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earthnailabout 1 year ago
I have a German company. It&#x27;s driving me nuts. So much overhead for NOTHING. The bookkeeping and tax is insane. Tax system is so complicated only one dinosaur, Datev, works correctly, so you end up with 1990-era-style software (yes, that bad).<p>I currently have to change our address. Need to go to the notary. ~500€ for that. WTF...
Bishonen88about 1 year ago
Waiting 2.5 years for an Einburgerung. Read online, that other people submitting papers now, get that done in 1-2 months. Supposedly there are people that contacted the government asking about that discrepancy (2+ years vs months) were told that they should re-submit their papers... Paying twice...
globalise83about 1 year ago
I know this is a tongue-in-cheek critique of the process, but it&#x27;s also a really handy guide! Good job author.
Aissenabout 1 year ago
And I thought France had it bad… There are a lot of hoops to jump through when owning a company in France, but the creation is the &quot;easy&quot; part. And we got rid of the minimum capital many years ago. A good accountant will even guide you through all of it (but it will be expensive).
yieldcrvabout 1 year ago
&gt; The drawback of holding construct is that you have to found your holding company first, so you have to go through all of this twice.<p>The holding company doesn&#x27;t have to be a German one<p>(and neither does the operating company, but you could follow this tutorial and have a holding company elsewhere)
hiAndrewQuinnabout 1 year ago
Come form a company in Finland instead! We&#x27;re quite a bit better on the margin in this regard.<p>Okay, alright, there are a lot of EU countries that are quite a bit better in this regard. More generally: Do your research, shop around, and move to opportunity!
jarek83about 1 year ago
The chicken-egg situation for bank accounts is the same in Poland - it&#x27;s funny how such fundamental thing haven&#x27;t been fixed even in Germany
silexiaabout 1 year ago
Government bureaucracy is not accountable like business. There is no bankruptcy mechanism and there are no competitors to choose from
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nickipabout 1 year ago
Researchgate might have a gmbh but technically is incorporated in the US. Maybe thats how they got their &quot;special name&quot;.
jFriedensreichabout 1 year ago
i could not find the most important question while skim reading: does it have to be germany. i would rather sit in boiling water than found a company there again. you don&#x27;t always have to move away completely to have a non germany company though i can also recommend that final step.
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limaoscarjulietabout 1 year ago
Missed the point on communicating with the Tax Govt people by snail mail - you want it that way. Working with them over phone or email will inevitably lead to you being hit with fines and other nasty scenarios.<p>Always get a lawyer to represent you when the Tax folks start an audit. Never tell them anything over the phone or email. Always ask for a letter and provide explanations via letter. Do record all communications with them. Never say anything they did not ask for.
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archi42about 1 year ago
Uh, yeah, this is all horrible. Even when founding a company makes sense, it&#x27;s sometimes difficult to justify - e.g. when we were buying a house I was looking at bigger buildings with multiple units, so having a estate holding company would have made sense: We&#x27;re already taxed over 30% and rents could have pushed us into the highest bracket, while most of the money (rents) in the holding would have gone into financing and maintaining the building anyway.<p>Don&#x27;t get me started on founding a company and then getting necessary loans (all while the loan market changes and suitable houses might vanish from the market). Some proper investor is probably now renting out a multi unit house we would have bought, making nice profits while we would have aimed at boosting our pension in a few decades.<p>But well: That&#x27;s the way it&#x27;s meant to be, else the rules would be different, or would they?<p>(We got an old SFH instead, and slashed energy consumption by ~80-90%. That&#x27;s not even accounting for PV. It&#x27;s nice to profit from that now and later in life, but I still believe that we, as a society, would have benefited more from improving a MFH and sharing the lower energy consumption with some tennants)
juliangmpabout 1 year ago
Haha actually everything here is that insane :)
harhaabout 1 year ago
Even more fun: how to get rid of a company
tietjensabout 1 year ago
My biggest complaint about German bureaucracy (reflected indirectly in some comments here) is that there is an insistence on following the rules, even while there are SO many rules and laws that officials very often give you wrong, incorrect, misleading answers.<p>I see this over and over and over again.<p>If you hit a bureaucratic wall in Germany you often can get over it, not by paying money like in some countries, but by paying with time from your own short life, and with your nerves trying to bend the system to your will. Is it worth it? No. Not in my opinion.
scurthabout 1 year ago
Awesome writeup, i did a similar years ago. One important thing you missed is VBG Berufsgenossenschaft. Mandatory to register within 10 days after the notary. Even as a one person Gmbh you need to register there. Running costs: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.on-promise.cloud&#x2F;en&#x2F;compendium&#x2F;01-how-much-does-a-gmbh-cost.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.on-promise.cloud&#x2F;en&#x2F;compendium&#x2F;01-how-much-does-...</a>
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jherikoabout 1 year ago
step 1: register a british company step 2: done...
throwaway220033about 1 year ago
Germany is a cult, not country.<p>The whole system is designed for slavery. Never question anything here, just obey the rules, give up your individuality and live without a soul.<p>The new European way of freedom is not building your own life; you must let government take care of you, and in return you do what they ask. The best part is they think they are free and afraid of their privacy.<p>If freedom is not thinking for yourself and building your life, then what it is? The answer is; partying, drugs, alcohol, orgies. And complaining about other countries issues. Textbook cult patterns.<p>German news are full of other countries’ problems, they will discuss racism in US for weeks and months meanwhile Nazis are burning Turkish families once a year alive, murdering ordinary people. You’ll see how they write the softest article about burning immigrants alive in 2024 their own country but they will happily go out to the streets and protest for US or Ukraine.<p>How are you going to convince any immigrants to live here and work with you? None of the immigrants who live here say good things about Germany or Germans.<p>Investment scene is also pretty much depends on your race. Unless you’re already profitable or white european, they won’t fund your startup. They rather fund some grow-carrot-in-balcony startups instead of investing in your company.<p>I’m hoping to get out of this shit show soon and almost everybody around me consider the same.
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justadolphinnnabout 1 year ago
How cute, he thinks the kebab shop is registered and paying tax LOL
dappermannekeabout 1 year ago
germanys most important role is to stop people from noticing the actually good countries around it
lynx23about 1 year ago
Wow, I love this thread. Tons of expats talk to each other how bad the country they choose for living actually is. And on top of that, words like legally entitled fly by. If you don&#x27;t like Germany (who is?) then move on. It was never a country particularily friendly to expats. Berlin might be different if you find your flock... Heck, I had friends from .at move to .de and totally fail to connect with people. Really, if you can move out again, go for it. But whining about the paperwork is pathetic.
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Wris1951about 1 year ago
As of my last update in January 2022, I cannot access or retrieve specific articles or content from external sources like eidel.io. However, I can provide you with a general outline of the steps typically involved in founding a company in Germany based on common procedures. Here&#x27;s a simplified guide:<p>1. *Choose Your Business Structure*: Decide whether you want to establish a sole proprietorship (Einzelunternehmen), a partnership (Gesellschaft bürgerlichen Rechts - GbR), a limited liability company (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung - GmbH), or another legal form.<p>2. *Business Name*: Choose a unique business name and check its availability. You can do this through the German commercial register (Handelsregister).<p>3. *Articles of Association (Gesellschaftsvertrag)*: Draft and notarize the articles of association if you&#x27;re forming a company with others.<p>4. *Capital Contributions*: Determine the initial capital required for your business structure. For example, a GmbH requires a minimum share capital of €25,000.<p>5. *Register Business*: Register your business with the local trade office (Gewerbeamt) if it&#x27;s a sole proprietorship or partnership. If you&#x27;re forming a GmbH, you&#x27;ll need to notarize the articles of association and register the company with the local commercial register (Handelsregister).<p>6. *Taxation Registration*: Register your business for tax purposes at the local tax office (Finanzamt).<p>7. *Obtain Necessary Permits and Licenses*: Depending on your business activities, you might need specific permits or licenses. Check with the relevant authorities.<p>8. *Social Security*: If you plan to employ people, you&#x27;ll need to register with social security agencies.<p>9. *Employment Contracts*: Draft employment contracts if you&#x27;re hiring employees.<p>10. *Open Business Bank Account*: Open a business bank account to manage your finances.<p>11. *Insurance*: Consider necessary insurances such as liability insurance, health insurance, etc.<p>12. *Data Protection Compliance*: Ensure compliance with data protection regulations, especially if you&#x27;re handling personal data.<p>13. *Employer Obligations*: Understand and fulfill your obligations as an employer regarding taxes, social security contributions, etc.<p>14. *Ongoing Compliance*: Stay compliant with ongoing obligations such as filing annual reports, tax returns, etc.<p>Remember, these steps may vary depending on the type of business you&#x27;re starting and your specific circumstances. It&#x27;s advisable to consult with legal and financial professionals to ensure compliance with all legal requirements.