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Everything we can't describe in music

139 pointsby anarbadalovabout 1 year ago

25 comments

elihuabout 1 year ago
&gt; &quot;Timbre’s role in music has always been underrated, or even ignored, probably because it is an intangible that’s difficult to describe, hard to categorize, and so far, immune to measurement. &quot;<p>In the mid-to-late 1800s, Herman Helmholtz was building spectrographs of musical sounds by listening to them through a bunch of resonators of varying sizes that acted as band-pass filters, and recording how loud each harmonic sounded.<p>His writings are still relevant today.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Sensations-Tone-Dover-Books-Music&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0486607534" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Sensations-Tone-Dover-Books-Music&#x2F;dp&#x2F;...</a><p>I&#x27;ve heard that the Sethares book (which is much more recent) is really good too, but I don&#x27;t have a copy of that one.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Tuning-Timbre-Spectrum-William-Sethares&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1852337974" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Tuning-Timbre-Spectrum-William-Sethar...</a>
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giraffe_ladyabout 1 year ago
I&#x27;ve gotten a lot of use out of thinking of genre in relation to timbre. Not as the only relevant thing, but part of a constellation.<p>In most genres you have a palette of timbres to work with for each instrument based on the genre conventions. You can push at the edges or add things in, but have to balance audience expectations carefully as you do it. So for example the way an electric bass sounds in contemporary metal is just not normally going to &quot;fit&quot; into a chicago blues band, even though both are heavily dependent on the sound of electric bass.<p>Different genres have different relationships to this constraint, for example western classical has a huge palette available in an orchestra but is relatively averse to using instrumentation outside of that collection. Except in percussion, where there is a lot more flexibility! Jazz has a fairly small &amp; rigid set of acceptable timbres for its core instruments, but is fairly tolerant of experimenting with new instrumentation.<p>So then the two genre-timbre relationships I find most interesting are electronic and pop. Pop is, more than any other genre I think, curious about how timbre effects emotional response in music. An album by the same artist could have a huge range of different sounds for recognizable instruments, using the tension between them for different effects.<p>And then large swaths electronic music are built largely around active change of timbre over time through a piece. Something you see used conservatively and carefully in most genres becomes almost the central practice.<p>IDK it&#x27;s hard to articulate and I&#x27;m not trying to set a reductionist framework about how music sounds or anything. Just a line of musical thought I&#x27;ve been exposed to and found valuable.
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Barneyhillabout 1 year ago
I went to a interesting hackathon the other day focused on building tools for exploring timbre in sound <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;comma.eecs.qmul.ac.uk&#x2F;timbre-tools-hackathon&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;comma.eecs.qmul.ac.uk&#x2F;timbre-tools-hackathon&#x2F;</a>.<p>Was brilliant, a lot of groups focusing on the use of ML to characterise the &quot;unexplainable&quot; in sound synthesis.<p>We ended up submitting a tool for interacting directly with Ableton using LLM agents after becoming disenchanted with text2audio models, wrote about it here - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;montyanderson.net&#x2F;writing&#x2F;synthesis" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;montyanderson.net&#x2F;writing&#x2F;synthesis</a>
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pushedxabout 1 year ago
The lead developer of Melodyne, Peter Neubäcker, has one of the most precise and concrete understandings of timbre. He used that knowledge to create software which changes pitch without changing speed or timbre.<p>There&#x27;s a neat documentary floating around which includes some scenes where he explains how he increased his understanding of waveforms in the frequency domain by physcially modeling them in the time domain.
muxatorabout 1 year ago
The way a sound evolves in time contains a lot of timbrical information.<p>Different harmonics have different ADSR curves (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release).<p>Above all, one cannot overstress the importance of the attack transient. There are famous experiments in psychoacoustics that show that, when deprived of their attack transient, the sounds of two different instruments may become hard to tell apart.<p>Personal anecdote: as a classic guitarist, it took me three years of experimentation to find the right way to cut my fingernails in order to have a better sound. The Electronic Engineer in me says that those were three years spent to look for how to improve 0.1 seconds of noise at the start of each of my notes.
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navaneabout 1 year ago
Timbre is what makes the violin sound different from the bassoon, what makes the strings in general gives them their sound, and brass theirs. Timbre is what makes a singers voice unique.<p>Classical composers had a set of fixed timbres to play with, each instrument having their own. With synthesizers everything is possible.
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wordsinalineabout 1 year ago
I&#x27;ve always thought of Jimi Hendrix as an example of timbre used for revolutionary purpose. A lot of what he acheived he acheived with timbre.
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tech_kenabout 1 year ago
&gt; A vocal timbre can also reveal economic and cultural background. Some singers...were encouraged to either accentuate their timbre...or to abandon what occurred naturally for them<p>Vocal timbre is a big identifier of different rap subgenres and artists, seems like. Certainly seems like much of the vocal delivery on a track explores fluctuation of the timbre, even when the pitch is constant or has little dynamics.<p>It&#x27;s interesting to think how the timbral effects of a regional accent would interact with the beat construction&#x2F;development. Is the trap hi-hat a result of the Southern drawl?
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tarentelabout 1 year ago
As a synth enthusiast I generally think of timbre in relation to &quot;real&quot; instruments, brass, strings, piano, etc. In the article they mention there are as many as 10 dimensions but don&#x27;t actually define what those are. Timbre is something I&#x27;ve thought about a lot but nailing down a more general classification seems pretty challenging.
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dtagamesabout 1 year ago
Synth players have studied and emulated timbres (and created new ones) since the pipe organ (an additive synthesizer). Many books have been written about timbre in electronic terms -- a combination of frequencies and amplitude envelopes that either sound to our ears like classical instruments, or like something else entirely.<p>I would go so far as to say understanding and selection of timbre is 50% of the work of a synth player.
snvzzabout 1 year ago
Tangentially, Sennheiser HD600 headphones are known as &quot;timbre kings&quot; for their ability to reproduce timbre accurately.
andoandoabout 1 year ago
Pitch is the frequency of the oscillation, timbre is the internal structure of what&#x27;s oscillating. Is that right at all?
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logrotabout 1 year ago
Timbre can vary a lot day by day on the same instrument.<p>Violin and the bow are both made of wood and a rainy damp day can easily sound different than dry summer&#x27;s day.<p>You can get good carbon fiber bows and they are much less weather sensitive.<p>You can also get carbon fiber violins but I haven&#x27;t heard one that sounds as good as one made from wood.
alana314about 1 year ago
We can get closer to the mathematical definition of timbre by talking about the strength of the harmonics <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VRAXK4QKJ1Q" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VRAXK4QKJ1Q</a>
Aidevahabout 1 year ago
A fine article on the role of timbre which is indeed discussed little compared to the focus on harmony and form for classical music. Charles Rosen gave one possible reason for this neglect in his book &quot;Piano Notes&quot;, where he traces it to a philosophical prejudice of composers from Hadyn onwards against variety in tone colour and in favour of more abstract qualities.<p>&gt; <i>The utility of the piano for composing was its neutral and uniform tone color: in theory (although not in reality) the tone quality of the bass is the same as the treble. In any case, the change in tone color over the whole range of the piano is, or should be, gradual and continuous (there are breaks, of course, when the notes go from one string in the bass to two and then to three in the treble). The monochrome piano might be used therefore just for its arrangements of pitches, and the quality of the sound could-absurdly in many cases-be considered secondary.</i><p>&gt; <i>What made it possible for composers to refuse to acknowledge the difference on the piano between treble and bass and leave whatever problems arose to be solved by the performer was the fact that the change in tone color over the span of the keyboard is not like the leap from a bassoon to a flute but continuous and very gradual when the instrument is properly voiced. These imperceptible gradations are the result of a deliberate policy of a unified sonority on the part of musicians and instrument makers. All attempts over the history of piano construction to incorporate anything analogous to the picturesque changes of registration in the organ and the harpsichord had little success, were not exploited by composers, and were finally abandoned. Radical contrasts of tone color were traded for the possibility of making a gradual crescendo or diminuendo. This was a decision that took place at the same time as the preeminence accorded to the string quartet over all other forms of chamber music; that, too, emphasized the importance of a unified tone color. Chamber music with wind instruments, while the occasion for several masterpieces, became the exception, an exotic form. That is why the use of colorful sonorities in the orchestra has so often been considered somewhat vulgar, as if calling attention to the sound were paradoxically to detract from the music. The prestige given to pure string sonority is part of the asceticism of nineteenth-century high culture. Contrasts of tone color were given a significantly lower place in the hierarchy of musical elements. This is one reason that only the piano repertory rivals the string quartet as the most respectable medium for private and semiprivate music-making from Haydn to Brahms.</i>
superb-owlabout 1 year ago
Highly recommend the book “Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale” for engineers interested in music theory<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sethares.engr.wisc.edu&#x2F;ttss.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sethares.engr.wisc.edu&#x2F;ttss.html</a>
odyssey7about 1 year ago
Arnold Schoenberg observed the deep connection between music, perception, and cognition; anticipated composers applying timbral control as is now commonly done with synthesizers; and apparently did not anticipate non-subtlety of the effect in EDM:<p>&quot;I think the tone becomes perceptible by virtue of tone color [timbre], of which one dimension is pitch. ... Pitch is nothing else but tone color measured in one direction. Now, if it is possible to create patterns out of tone colors that are differentiated according to pitch, patterns we call &#x27;melodies&#x27;, progressions, whose coherence evokes an effect analogous to thought processes, then it must also be possible to make such progressions out of the tone colors of the other dimension, out of that which we call simply &#x27;tone color&#x27;, progressions whose relations with one another work with a kind of logic entirely equivalent to that logic which satisfies us in the melody of pitches. That has the appearance of a futuristic fantasy and is probably just that. But it is one which, I firmly believe, will be realized.<p>...<p>Tone-color melodies! How acute the senses that would be able to perceive them! How high the development of spirit that could find pleasure in such subtle things!&quot;<p>-- Arnold Schoenberg, Theory of Harmony, 1911, toward the end of chapter 22.<p>Personally, I anticipate that if humanlike AGI is achieved, then it will understand the illusion of music. Not merely because music understanding is an attribute of <i>humanlike</i>, but because there must be something intrinsic in the process of human cognition that causes the illusion of music occur. Music understanding could be viewed as an essential waypoint on the path to AGI.
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joebergeronabout 1 year ago
This is tangential to much of what this article discusses, but I&#x27;ve had this idea kicking around in my head for a while, that, to some degree, the artificial imitation of acoustic instruments using synthesizers is to music what skeuomorphism is to design, and I (generally) dislike it for all the same reasons. This isn&#x27;t to diss synthesizers on the whole - I unequivocally love them, and they really opened up my musical world by a wide margin. Nor am I saying that there is no place for synth patches that attempt to &quot;sound like&quot; &quot;real&quot; instruments (for lack of a better word; I consider every &quot;model&quot; of synthesizer to be its own very real and distinct instrument).<p>Skeuomorphic design, to me, largely feels lazy and unattractive; rather than designing for the new, maybe unfamiliar, medium you&#x27;re working in, you attempt some facsimile which inevitably cannot live up to the original, either out of lack of ambition, or lack of faith in your audience to understand or appreciate without the anchor of a common metaphor. It lacks idiomaticity - there are particular details, quirks, associated with different mediums that lend themselves to different sorts of designs, and a skeuomorphic design language ignores these. (The same is true of musical instruments. A piece written for the lute, say, played on piano, would feel very different than a piece written for piano, played on piano; what is easy, or possible, on one instrument, is not necessarily as sonorous on another.)<p>To me, the use of synthesizers to emulate acoustic instruments, where the express intent of the composer&#x2F;producer&#x2F;whatever is to evoke the sound of that acoustic original (read: where the creator would <i>prefer</i> the sound of the real instrument), is, at its most generous, telling of a lack of creativity and at worst laziness. (If what you want is expressly the sound of a synthetic imitation for the purposes of your art, none of this applies.) It is a lack of creativity in the case where the creator simply does not have access to &quot;real&quot; instruments they&#x27;d rather use, and it&#x27;s laziness where you have access and ability but opt for something you yourself deem inferior.<p>Of course, this all presupposes that there is something lost when say, a synthesizer plays a violin patch in an earnest effort by the creator to emulate a violin - where a real violin is actually what&#x27;s desired. I think this isn&#x27;t controversial to say, but of course it&#x27;s a spectrum; I have much less of a problem in cases where the delta is smaller; e.g., simple legato harmonies from a string section can be emulated more convincingly (by orders of magnitude) than some virtuosic cadenza by a solo instrumentalist.
JALTUabout 1 year ago
At least this article will reinforce the concept, and the correct spelling, if not any appreciation for the quality!
Illiana_adamabout 1 year ago
Everything we can&#x27;t describe in music&quot; is a thought-provoking statement that highlights the limitations and strengths of music as a medium.
taco_emojiabout 1 year ago
&quot;Terroir&quot; is a terrible way to metaphorize timbre. The only similarity is that they&#x27;re both hard to describe. Terroir is there before the wine is made and can&#x27;t really be controlled by the winemaker (except insofar as they choose where to plant or what grapes to blend). Timbre is absolutely under the control of the musician.
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hnthrowaway6543about 1 year ago
&gt; Another way to think about timbre is by comparing instruments. In an old stand-up bit, Steve Martin strummed the banjo and mused, “You just can’t sing a depressing song when you’re playing the banjo . . . You can’t just go, ‘Oh, death, and grief, and sorrow, and murder.’<p>Anyone who&#x27;s played Outer Wilds should disagree with this.[0]<p>To say we <i>can&#x27;t</i> describe timbre is a bit misleading, because there are concrete mathematical ways to analyze sounds; they exist in a three-dimensional space of frequency, amplitude and time. But that&#x27;s helpful in the same way that describing programming languages as collections of 1s and 0s is.<p>What&#x27;s lacking for describing timbre, I suppose, are the steps between &quot;this sound is a sum of a particular arrangement of sine waves&quot; and &quot;this sound is a piano&quot;. There are common terms such as ADSR or &quot;brightness&quot; and &quot;warmth&quot; but those don&#x27;t tell the full story.<p>The question is, how valuable is that intermediate step when you could just say &quot;this is a piano, this is a banjo&quot;?<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=YR_wIb_n4ZU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=YR_wIb_n4ZU</a>
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crowcroftabout 1 year ago
Tone is in the fingers, as they say for guitarists. Different woods, magnets, strings all impact tone for sure, but at the end of the day Jimmy Page sounds like Jimmy Page and Hendrix sounds like Hendrix cause tone is in the fingers.<p>That’s what stops music from being math.
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deltasepsilonabout 1 year ago
This story was <i>not</i> submitted by tintinnabula.<p>I&#x27;m scandalized. &#x2F;s
cainxinthabout 1 year ago
tldr: Timbre, the unique quality of a sound that distinguishes different voices or instruments from one another, is complex to define and measure and is often overlooked in music theory, which tends to focus more on pitch, rhythm, and harmony.