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In Praise of Idleness (1932)

270 pointsby TotalCrackpotabout 1 year ago

27 comments

wencabout 1 year ago
I read In Praise of Idleness when I was 13-14 because an older person recommended it to me. Although the essay was written in the 1935, he convinced me this was the future, and that it foretold what European life was going to be. And indeed, modern Western Europe lives this way -- where leisure is accorded importance, hard work is not the highest virtue, and citizens were free to create culture and invent new ideas. As evidence, he pointed to all the discoveries made by medieval monks and people with idle time to play with ideas, as opposed to the proletariat who worked but did not have the luxury to think higher thoughts. Idleness was thus the pre-condition for great ideas.<p>In a sense, this is the vision of UBI -- where basic needs were met, and people were free to self-actualize.<p>This is also the happy version of tenure in academia -- where you didn&#x27;t have to worry about &quot;publish or perish&quot; but instead you get to work on really important ideas without showing results for years (multi year grants or being in a place like the IAS helps).<p>Google in some ways used to operate like this before the current pivot -- many googlers lived a life of &quot;resting and vesting&quot; while wandering about for years looking for a big idea with little pressure to deliver anything.<p>I definitely found this vision attractive, but as I grew older, I realized that it was not entirely tenable in it purest form. Yes, the best ideas certain came from having time to wander and work on different things (you get more creative working on multiple decorrelated ideas at the same time rather than one big idea), but in my experience, complete idleness without pressure to deliver anything does not work. I don&#x27;t know if I believe the premise of In Praise of Idleness any more. We no longer live in a simple world. In a complex world, great ideas come from incrementalism, and keeping busy and making progress seems to be necessary in many domains in order get to the big idea because all the low hanging fruit have been plucked.
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t43562about 1 year ago
I was thinking recently that there&#x27;s enough food to feed everyone but some people cannot afford to buy it. Hence there are food banks in an apparently &quot;first world&quot; country like the UK. Just to annoy some Americans...what&#x27;s with the worlds richest country letting people be homeless? I remember a beautiful park in San Jose that I went to was full of rough sleepers and wondering how that happened in the middle of all that tech wealth.<p>Why? Why are there men who demand 50-whatever billion payouts in a country where not everyone has a place to sleep?<p>It seems the same issue to me. We&#x27;re not on the earth to &quot;do great things&quot; or &quot;achieve progress&quot; or any of that crap. That&#x27;s for people who have some special enthusiasm which the rest of us need not share, or, as Bertrand Russell says, for the elite who want us to labor for them. If one builds one&#x27;s morality or sense of virtue on doing stuff one is a self-whipping slave and probably ready to become a slave driver for other people too.
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drsoppabout 1 year ago
In 1998 I found some articles online by Russell and put them here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;trondal.com&#x2F;russell&#x2F;russell.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;trondal.com&#x2F;russell&#x2F;russell.html</a>
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CobaltFireabout 1 year ago
I, through a combination of fortune and misfortune, was able to retire at 40.<p>I am trying to figure out how to employ my hands in ways I enjoy and that may be of net benefit to society at this time, and this essay touches on a lot of the concepts I&#x27;ve been thinking over. I&#x27;m actually surprised I haven&#x27;t run across it; I should probably start my search by reading a little deeper into some philosophy.
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kubbabout 1 year ago
&gt; In America men often work long hours even when they are well off; such men, naturally, are indignant at the idea of leisure for wage-earners, except as the grim punishment of unemployment; in fact, they dislike leisure even for their sons.<p>There will be hundreds of people here that fit this perfectly, or am I wrong about the demographics of HN?
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tracerbulletxabout 1 year ago
I think every discussion about this should focus on what exactly are the things that need to happen that no one would do if not coerced by either force or threat of destitution. How do we make sure those things get done and done well is a constraint of any economic changes we make to make things more fair. Also keeping in mind some of those things need to organize 1000s of people, how do you mine lithium in one place, and ship it across the world to 200 other places without financial incentives, how would you fuel the ships, load and unload them, track their location, repair and maintain them. I think it&#x27;s pretty obvious things could be MUCH better and our current solution is very sub-optimal, but also that the problem being solved is very complex and the solution we have mostly works, but also there is a lot of work that is not particularly fulfilling or attractive to do, and especially not going to self incentivize anyone to do it well. Also it&#x27;s clear markets are the best way to signal demand. So you really want to keep all of that, while getting rid of some of the biggest exploitative extractive inefficiencies in the current system.
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lo_zamoyskiabout 1 year ago
I would recommend Josef Pieper’s “Leisure: The Basis of Leisure” [0]. Leisure is not recreation. Indeed, the word “school” is derived from the Greek word for leisure, and the state of having to work was defined in terms of the lack of leisure, a negation of leisure. The leisure&#x2F;work distinction is also reflected in the classical division of the liberal arts and the servile arts. (The liberal arts were what free men pursued, for the sake of wisdom, virtue, etc. The servile arts were for the sake of practical ends.) Work was understood as something you did for the sake of leisure (but again, not leisure as we understand it today which is at best recreation), not as work for work’s sake.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Leisure-Basis-Culture-Josef-Pieper&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1586172565" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Leisure-Basis-Culture-Josef-Pieper&#x2F;dp...</a>
bogdartabout 1 year ago
I understand everything and maybe even agree with the main thesis. But the positive example that he gives is Soviet Russia, which that time (1932-1933) went through massive famine in literally the most fertile land in the world which was caused by completely artificial reasons. And Soviet workers were forced to work more than ever without any payment. So the solutions in the article cannot be taken seriously.
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Fezzikabout 1 year ago
One of my favorite bands, TTNG, has a wicked good song inspired by this essay. If you like math-rock at all I reckon you’d enjoy it: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=dCKXg2scb_s&amp;pp=ygUaaW4gcHJhaXNlIG9mIGlkbGVuZXNzIHR0bmc%3D" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=dCKXg2scb_s&amp;pp=ygUaaW4gcHJhaXN...</a>
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ckoabout 1 year ago
I like this essay but I&#x27;ve found it hard to be idle. I jumped aboard the FIRE train so I could coast the rest of my life, and quit my job once when I was 31 and then when I was 33 after working for a year.<p>Now I&#x27;m working the same dead end job again and I don&#x27;t mind it. When I&#x27;m not working I&#x27;m consuming YouTube, HN and reddit. Not sure how to love idleness again.<p>I used to be able to sit still for an hour at a time (meditation).
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mitchbobabout 1 year ago
Previous discussion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6513765">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6513765</a> (120 comments)
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malingoabout 1 year ago
Reminds me a little of hammock-driven development [1]<p>&gt; the background mind is good at synthesizing things. It&#x27;s good about strategy<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;matthiasn&#x2F;talk-transcripts&#x2F;blob&#x2F;master&#x2F;Hickey_Rich&#x2F;HammockDrivenDev.md">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;matthiasn&#x2F;talk-transcripts&#x2F;blob&#x2F;master&#x2F;Hi...</a>
kzz102about 1 year ago
If one works in a field where there is already an issue of abundance, which is (nowadays) basically any field that produce information, it&#x27;s better for the society to produce less, but higher quality, more meaningful work. Of course, it is hard to do so because the incentives are against it.
tim333about 1 year ago
Fun fact - if you search your file system for idleness.txt you&#x27;ll probably find it includes quite a few copies as npm&#x2F;node likes including it in its packages. I seem to have 30 on my macbook.
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quercusaabout 1 year ago
<i>If the ordinary wage-earner worked four hours a day, there would be enough for everybody and no unemployment -- assuming a certain very moderate amount of sensible organization.</i><p>True sensible organization has never been tried!
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hnthrowaway0328about 1 year ago
Indeed I can never enjoy Mediterranean sunshine idleness.<p>To me the sin is not to get the most out of life and especially not devoted most of life to a passion. To me the sin is to stop &quot;evolving&quot;. Getting sunshine is mostly for health benefit.<p>I keep asking myself: Did I learn more about the universe? Did I improve myself today? Of course most of the time the answer is no, but I still try to get some yes occasionally.<p>A bit of idleness for sure is an antidote for burnout, but the Mediterranean sunshine idleness is way way too much for my taste.
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xnxabout 1 year ago
Related: &quot;All of humanity&#x27;s problems stem from man&#x27;s inability to sit quietly in a room alone&quot; -French philosopher Blaise Pascal, 1654
leetroutabout 1 year ago
This made me think of this passage from &quot;Happy to Work Here: understanding and improving the culture at work&quot; which is on the web[0]:<p>The business of busyness is a contradiction in terms. The more politics forces you to look busy, the less time there is for real business. An old joke to set the tone for this section:<p>A group of excited young curates crashes into the office of the Archbishop at St. Patrick’s cathedral. “Your Eminence!” one of them cries. “Jesus Christ has just appeared in lower Manhattan!” “What?!” “He walked across the water and came ashore in Battery Park.” “Oh my.” “And now he’s headed up Fifth Avenue toward St. Patrick’s. He could be here any minute!” “I see.” “So, tell us, Eminence, what do we do?” The Archbishop thinks that over for a moment and finally says, “Look busy.”<p>An apparent busyness can be a sign of deep and very professional engagement in an important task, vital to the long-term interests of the organization. Or it might be a sign of something else entirely. In a fearful organization it most likely implies a worry that it’s downright unsafe to seem unbusy. The unspoken rule that governs people in this case is:<p>Look busy.<p>Of course, the fear itself has already done damage to the organization’s culture. But obedience to the unspoken rule makes the matter worse. The consequences of everyone trying to look busy include:<p>• No time for reflection<p>• No time to confer with colleagues (which might be interpreted as “chatting”)<p>• No time for lunch<p>• No time for training<p>• Nobody willing to be away from his&#x2F;her desk<p>• No off-site activities<p>• A general uneasiness with activities that might seem “passive” like reading, and research.<p>Most of the things that the rule makes impossible are culture positive. That is, they help the culture heal and improve itself. The more you find yourself and your co-workers compelled to look busy, the surer you can be that your working culture is damaged.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;systemsguild.eu&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;systemsguild.eu&#x2F;</a>
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user_7832about 1 year ago
A point that one of the comments here addressed but I think is worth re-emphasising - Russell isn&#x27;t talking about <i>not working</i>, but rather to not work in a way that&#x27;s not productive - which often occurs if you <i>need to be in office till 5pm because I told you so!&quot;</i>
azureumbraabout 1 year ago
Thanks for the awesome read! Sharing it with my UBI group now
rlhfabout 1 year ago
That&#x27;s true, maybe it&#x27;s the reason why short videos burst into exploding.
naveen99about 1 year ago
Life is acting, choosing what to do and not to do. There is no idleness.
lurking15about 1 year ago
I read Intellectuals by Paul Johnson and it occurs to me that even generously doubting the book, Bertrand Russell comes off as a real scumbag, complete womanizer, generally untethered person and despite being prodigiously intelligent, simply unwise.<p>Also defending idleness seems like the sort of opinion the well-off espouse, Russell carried around accounting of every cent he made, just to cheer him up whenever he felt down.
readthenotes1about 1 year ago
He sure put a lot of work into this
alexashkaabout 1 year ago
A shorter version with much greater bite and wit by Nietzsche published in 1882:<p>329 Leisure and idleness. - There is something of the American lndian, something of the savagery peculiar to the Indian blood, in the way the Americans strive for gold; and their breathless haste in working - the true vice of the new world - is already starting to spread to old Europe, making it savage and covering it with a most odd mindlessness. Already one is ashamed of keeping still; long reflection almost gives people a bad conscience. One thinks with a watch in hand, as one eats lunch with an eye on the financial pages - one lives like someone who might always &#x27;miss out on something&#x27;. &#x27;Rather do anything than nothing&#x27; - even this principle is a cord to strangle all culture and all higher taste. Just as all forms are visibly being destroyed by the haste of the workers, so, too, is the feeling for form itself, the ear and eye for the melody of movements. The proof of this lies in the crude obviousness which is universally demanded in all situations in which people want for once to be honest with others - in their relations with friends, women, relatives, children, teachers, students, leaders, and princes: one no longer has time and energy for ceremony, for civility with detours, for esprit in conversation, and in general for any otium 2 ° For life in a hunt for profit constantly forces people to expend their spirit to the point of exhaustion in continual pretence or out-smarting or forestalling others: the true virtue today is doing something in less time than someone else. And thus hours in which honesty is allowed are rare; during them, however, one is tired and wants not only to &#x27;let oneself go&#x27; but also to lay oneself down and stretch oneself out unceremoniously to one&#x27;s full length and breadth. This is the way people now write !etters, the style and spirit of which will always be the true &#x27;sign of the times&#x27;. If sociability and the arts still offer any delight, it is the kind of delight that overworked slaves make for themselves. How frugal our educated and uneducated have become concerning &#x27;joy&#x27;! How they are becoming increasingly suspicious of all joy! More and more, work gets all good conscience on its side; the desire for joy already calls itself a &#x27;need to recuperate&#x27; and is starting to be ashamed of itself. &#x27;One owes it to one&#x27;s health&#x27; - that is what one says when caught on an excursion in the countryside. Soon we may well reach the point where one can&#x27;t give in to the desire for a vita contemplativa21 (that is, taking a walk with ideas and friends) without self-contempt and a bad conscience. Well, formerly it was the other way around: work was afflicted with a bad conscience. A person of good family concealed the faet that he worked if need compelled him to work. The slave worked under the pressure of the feeling that he was doing something contemptible: &#x27;doing&#x27; was itself contemptible. &#x27;Nobility and honour are attached solely to otium and bellum&#x27;22 - that was the ancient prejudice!<p>The Gay Science<p>Bertrand Russell did a great disservice to philosophy by reducing great minds and talent to what he understood of them. Philosophy departments haven&#x27;t recovered since and now we seem to be in full swing going back to... fucking <i>religion</i> for ethics and morality spearheaded by the likes of Jordan Peterson.
dangabout 1 year ago
We&#x27;ve changed the URL from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;libcom.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;praise-idleness-bertrand-russell" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;libcom.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;praise-idleness-bertrand-russell</a> to the original source.<p>Submitters: &quot;<i>Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter.</i>&quot; - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html</a>
firtozabout 1 year ago
The essay comes up every now and then in HN, 5 pages of it in search. I&#x27;m unsure if it reached the status of most shared essay yet. Does anyone know?
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