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Let's get a little louder

151 pointsby SeanOCalmost 13 years ago

26 comments

stfualmost 13 years ago
Somehow I see no causation between a conference and the drunken comments by its attendees at a bar. Trying to argue that a conference organizer should hold some moral responsible for the people attending seems to me just ridiculous. <i>He looked at me and sighed, confessing that he never should have allowed this guy to come to the conference.</i> Here the <i>Wait. What? Really?</i> seems to be better placed - is there somebody really demanding the banning people from conferences who potentially may or may not be saying stupid things while being drunk at a bar?<p>Apparently the world is full of idiots, but it makes a difference if something is said/done/etc in a closed work environment or at some random bar among random people who just meet at some random event. Just because they like the same kind of things (music, coding languages, other "stuff") doesn't make them having some supreme ethical and moral standard. Demanding stronger sexual harassment laws is a legitimate request, but trying to paint the tech community as misogynist because of some random bar encounter is in my opinion unacceptable.
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dpeckalmost 13 years ago
Maybe I'm missing something but why not handle it with the safeguards at the venue? The conference is not in the business of protecting its attendees from unwanted advances, especially outside of the conference areas/sponsored events.<p>Why not speak to the manager of the bar and have him escorted out? If it happens at the hotel, do the same with the hotel manager. People in the service/hospitality industry know how to deal with these situations and do so all the time. If it happens again call the law.<p>There are much better mechanisms for dealing with harassment than a conference organizer.
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lambdaalmost 13 years ago
I am really quite disturbed by all of the people who are responding something along the lines of "this isn't the conference organizer's problem, it's happening outside of the conference." I've seen several such replies, so rather than responding to one, I'm responding to the whole sentiment here.<p>At a conference, there is a lot that goes on during unofficial off-hours, that is really an integral part of the conference. We shouldn't consider it acceptable for women to feel unsafe going to such off-hours events. If there is someone who is a guest at that conference, and showing up to off-hours events associate with the conference, that is still the conference's problem, as it significantly negatively affects an important part of the conference, and could be avoided by making that person unwelcome at the conference.<p>And this is not a court of law. We regularly ban people from online communities with a much lower bar of proof than would be required in a court of law, because those people are harmful to the community. Yes, any particular process could, in theory, be abused. But that isn't, as far as I know, a problem here. I have never heard of someone being banned from a conference unjustly. And we have a lower bar in these cases because the consequences are not as severe as criminal sanctions. We are not trying to lock someone up. We are not trying to get them arrested. We are just saying "this behavior is unacceptable, and you are not welcome in our community if you are going to behave this way."<p>All the original post is asking is that conferences have a clearly defined policy on what is unacceptable, and what will happen if someone crosses that line. It doesn't sound like there's any dispute about what happened. It sounds like the person in question had a history of problems, as the organizer said he shouldn't have allowed this person to come to the conference.<p>There isn't a problem here of people being unjustly accused and cut off from conferences because of it. There is a problem of women being harassed, seriously creeped out, feeling unwelcome and unable to do anything about it because of the actions of a few, and the lack of any clear policy or action on the part of conference organizers. And heck, a clear policy can help. Perhaps it can specify that the first time, someone will be warned, and only banned if they have already been warned. Perhaps it can specify a dispute resolution procedure. A clear policy will help everyone. We need to do better, because this keeps coming up and it is a serious problem.
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jnolleralmost 13 years ago
This sucks, period - there's no two ways about it. Things like this are why I am glad PyCon (us.pycon.org) has a code of conduct in place (<a href="https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/" rel="nofollow">https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/</a>) which is enforced by staff. There is no place for this type of behavior, anywhere.<p>I am sorry this happened to you Julia, it should not have, and the conference organizers should not have blinked before ejecting the responsible party from the conference.
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xutopiaalmost 13 years ago
I've gotten into a bar fight to protect a woman I did not know. I almost got into a fight in the subway for the same reason, twice. However I can't stand these kinds of stories. All I hear is one socially awkward guy trying really hard in the worst possible way.<p>I'm conflicted because on the other hand the guy seemed like an asshole but I have only one side of the story and feel like it would be jumping to conclusions to judge this guy just from this.
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bnegrevealmost 13 years ago
Honestly, I don't think the conference should be in charge of this (specially when it doesn't happen where the conference takes place). This is a very general problem and should be handled by state/federal laws rather than arbitrary decisions taken by conference organizer.
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stdbrouwalmost 13 years ago
That really sucks, and maybe the conference organizers could have been better at coming up with a way to deal with this, but I don't know what a sexual harrassment policy would solve. Sexual harrassment is immoral and depending on the nature punishable by law. Spelling that out would be like spelling out that you'd prefer people not to defecate in the hallways. We need to find solutions, not add organizational scar tissue (see <a href="http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/dont_scar_on_the_first_cut.php" rel="nofollow">http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/dont_scar_on_the_first_cu...</a>).
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supernooneoalmost 13 years ago
Careful that she is making an accusation here, but it is not proven, and prior bad behaviour (that's also an unproven accusation) is not an indicator of present guilt.<p>I don't think we should ban people from conferences based on unproven accusations.
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bootyalmost 13 years ago
I've been in this conference organizer's shoes before.<p>On one hand, running a conference/convention is difficult enough without being asked to referee personal conflicts. It almost inevitably devolves into a he-said/she-said kind of argument.<p>But on the other hand, if we take that kind of an attitude, that's essentially a signal for predatory men to go ahead and harass women (or worse). That's pretty much what predatory men have been doing since the beginning of history - acting with impunity since claims of rape or harassment are almost impossible to prove if there are no additional witnesses or physical evidence.<p>What we've done is to stress proper conduct before the event, and if there are repeat complaints about somebody they're removed from the community permanently.<p>It's not a perfect process and we've given some "second chances" to people that we've later regretted.
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petercooperalmost 13 years ago
<i>it is clear to me that there is a definite lack of policies and procedures in place for sexual harassment at conferences and events.</i><p>FWIW, O'Reilly has had a policy - <a href="http://conferences.oreillynet.com/code-of-conduct.csp" rel="nofollow">http://conferences.oreillynet.com/code-of-conduct.csp</a> - for a while now. RailsConf also has one and I saw discussion about another Ruby event's policy recently on HN too (where people were saying 'is this really needed!?'.. answer is yes).
aardvark179almost 13 years ago
So, if the response from the conference director was that they should never have allowed the guy to come then it sounds like he was a known quantity in this regard.<p>When I've run conventions there has always been a note that the committee reserved the right to reject anybody's membership and did not have to give a reason. We've never had to use this but we've always had it as the nuclear option and had one person who we were ready to use it on.<p>If the person is already at the conference then you may need an acceptable behaviour policy that allows you to act, and you need it to be worded such that it applies to all conference attendees for the duration of the conference regardless of whether they are in conference facilities at the time. It's also best if it is short and broad, it's very easy to spot acceptable behaviour policies that have grown in response to specific events, and they are deeply discouraging when viewed by newcomers and outsiders.
breadboxalmost 13 years ago
If someone started a fistfight in the conference's bar after hours, would you be surprised if the conference chose to not invite that person back again, ever? Would you come to his defense by saying "It's not the conference organizers' responsiblity what happens in the bar afterwards!" Some of the commenters have this idea that if you behave like a jerk to someone, ONLY that person has the right to distrust you. WTF?
sneakalmost 13 years ago
&#62; Let's stop talking about apologies too. "After the fact" doesn't really do any good. Sexual harassment should not happen in the first place. There should be a clearly-defined set of standards in place to prevent it.<p>I'm not sure how standards in place at a conference can prevent individuals from deciding to break the law.<p>Sure, you might deter the weak-willed or fearful, but these sorts of asshole moves aren't generally perpetrated by those kinds of people.<p>Unfortunately, for a lot of this kind of stuff, after-the-fact is all we have. I would love a better solution but the items listed don't actually _prevent_ this.
Loicalmost 13 years ago
Excuse me but I am surprised. I read a lot on HN and on several planets (feed aggregation) about harassment, but in my field (engineering) I have never seen/experienced/heard about such cases even if the ratio female/male is pretty low is some of these conferences. Is it something specific to the coder community? Or maybe chemical/process engineers are just an exception? Or is it specific to the US in this field (I have been to a couple of coder oriented conferences in Europe without experiencing such cases but only engineering confs in the US)?
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johngaltalmost 13 years ago
Maybe the reason that there is no policy at the conference is that harassment doesn't happen as often as its portrayed?<p>Going to a bar and then being hit on is hardly the end of the world. Its one thing to respect office/professional decorum, its another to start setting rules where men can only speak when spoken to.
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Tichyalmost 13 years ago
Would a harassment policy spell out the appropriate ways to approach a woman? Or would flirting become some kind of Russian Roulette?
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nossealmost 13 years ago
I'd like to note that "groping" is not mentioned in the article. No other touching either. Just that some creep started to make "inappropriate sexual advances" towards the writer.<p>So it seems to be one time unpleasant conversation. I'd hardly call that harassment.<p>If one time unpleasant conversation with persistent person is harassment, then I was once police-harassed. This officer wanted me to go to police academy. I said no but he didn't stop. He was quite drunk. And last weekend I was oil-change-harassed, my dad kept insisting that I'd do an oil change to my car this summer. He was drunk too.<p>But I have to admit that this kind of behavior towards women should stop. What is causing it? Let's go after the source, not just try to heal the symptoms.
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jeremyarussellalmost 13 years ago
Since this does happen, (even if we don't <i>know</i> that this guy did anything to this girl.) then I think a bigger question to ask is pretty simple and will surely do better in the long run. When someone around you acts like a pig, girl or guy (I've seen some girls act downright crazy when alcohol gets into the mix, it's the thing to do when you want to act out your deepest desires, liquid courage I call it.) call them out at it. If you see someone groping someone else when they don't want, let them know it's not cool and you won't stand here while they do it. Same thing for any sexual advance that is unwelcome. You can usually tell when it's unwelcome when the receiving party looks nervous and tries to politely get out of the situation.<p>The below kinda-quote (it's disputed if it was Burke, or if it was said exactly thus.) comes to mind and rings pretty loud.<p>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - Edmund Burke<p>As an exiting thought, the pressure to be civil needs to come from peers. Meaning, guys don't let guy friends harass, and girls don't let girl friends harass.
tomjen3almost 13 years ago
That is a bit redundant, as it would fall under the general don't be an asshole policy.<p>Also this happened at a bar. So it would seem the problem is that the bar didn't handle it, not that the conference didn't.
s_babyalmost 13 years ago
Since when are "zero tolerance" policies a good idea. They always end up marginalizing someone.
roopeshvalmost 13 years ago
i am only here to look for a reference to "lighten up"
fezzlalmost 13 years ago
He must have been ugly.
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stefantalpalarualmost 13 years ago
If the lady says she was harassed we should totally ban the criminal from any future conferences, jobs and parties. Forget the due process, she was disgusted by everyone associated with the rapist. Disgusted! Zero-tolerance means we don't even need Obama to look over the kill-list. The pedophile must pay.<p>P.S.: at last year's EuroPython conference in Italy we were greeted by a menacing organizer threatening to call the cops if we make inappropriate jokes. I blamed it on the fascist ideology still present in this country, but it seems to run deeper. Let's see how it will escalate this year: <a href="https://ep2012.europython.eu/code-of-conduct" rel="nofollow">https://ep2012.europython.eu/code-of-conduct</a>
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sparknlaunchalmost 13 years ago
Unfortunate story and only recommend that others walk away sooner and try not to provoke the situation. Alcohol is a dangerous drug and can seriously impair people's decision making. It is always best to walk away.<p>I always wonder what would happen if a man was subjected to the same treatment. Sadly I doubt anyone would take them seriously. But we should...
ToesByNoonalmost 13 years ago
Everyone deals with / runs into assholes in their lives, this guy was just another one. If you politely told him to fuck off several times and he did not, why not call the cops rather than crying about it on the internet? Oh yeah, free publicity for your blog and business.
Daniel_Newbyalmost 13 years ago
Pics or it didn't happen.<p>Seriously. YouTube is worth a thousand zero tolerance policies.
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