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Can we trust Microsoft with Open Source? (2021)

86 pointsby luu10 months ago

39 comments

audidude10 months ago
&gt; Yes, that is right, Visual Studio for Mac is a closed source version of the formerly open source MonoDevelop IDE after Microsoft acquired Xamarin.<p>Having all of my GPL code ripped out of MonoDevelop so it could become Visual Studio for Mac was the straw that made me write GNOME Builder, GNOME&#x27;s flagship IDE.
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486sx3310 months ago
Nope, and they’ve proven time and time again that we can’t trust them in any way shape or form
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zaphar10 months ago
The thing about open source is that you can just fork it. You don&#x27;t <i>need</i> to trust them.<p>If the question is actually &quot;Can we trust Microsoft with an Open Source Community?&quot; then it get&#x27;s more interesting.
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synergy2010 months ago
Microsoft embraced open source not because it liked it, but it had to, &quot;if you can&#x27;t beat it, you join it&quot;, it is a poison pill if history tells us anything.
nonrandomstring10 months ago
Trust is a complex thing. It&#x27;s much more than a rational, game-theoretic or economic equation, it&#x27;s emotional. Nobody &quot;trusts&quot; Microsoft.<p>People need it. People fear it, or fear losing it. People suffer it. Or they have no choice due to pressure or policy. Or they don&#x27;t know any better. Or they are tricked into believing something about it. But in the end, the often forced choice to use Microsoft is a strategically created imposition by a company with billions to spend on manipulation and political manoeuvring.
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ChrisArchitect10 months ago
(2021) put years on your submissions if they&#x27;re old please!<p>Some discussion then: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28968231">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28968231</a>
yoyohello1310 months ago
Can we trust Microsoft with anything? I certainly trust them to put profit above all else in every situation.
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mikerg8710 months ago
Can this be marked 2021 ?
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userbinator10 months ago
MS is still ultimately a company that values its profits, so &quot;open source&quot; to them is just &quot;free labour&quot;.
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bmitc10 months ago
More than who? Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, etc.?
masfoobar10 months ago
I have doubt for any of the big tech companies - not just microsoft.<p>Microsoft are profit driven and if any opportunity comes where they can trap you, they will. Same with Amazon. Same with Google. Etc.<p>I do not hate them... I accept the world we live in where they will dominate and control whatever they can. I just do my best to limit using their tools.<p>I work for companies using google or microsoft. At home, I keep to free software as much as I can.
jokethrowaway10 months ago
How much more do you need from Microsoft? The answer is no, it&#x27;s always been no and it will always be no.<p>They don&#x27;t see the value of OSS. Stop developing in M$ related technologies if you value your time and your DX.<p>I agree that C# is Java done well, but there are plenty of languages with feet on more solid foundations than a company with a track record of writing crap code and playing games with their developer community.
pjmlp10 months ago
Doesn&#x27;t matter.<p>Linux contributions, Github, node&#x2F;npm, Visual Studio, OpenJDK contributions to JIT and ARM, finally performance matters to CPython, Haskell,..<p>Turns out open source devs do have bills to pay, and Microsoft gives good checks.
grugagag10 months ago
You cannot trust Microsoft or any other big company with a similar track record.
tkubacki10 months ago
You can’t trust Microsoft about open source which has de facto monopoly on the desktop market with its closed operating system if you say it’s about ’values’.
recursive10 months ago
I&#x27;ve been using some of the most expensive Visual Studio subscriptions for probably decades. This thing is so jam-packed with features, I&#x27;ll probably never know what half of them do. But I definitely have access to hot-reload.<p>Anyway, it doesn&#x27;t really go to the point, but it&#x27;s funny to me that I&#x27;ve had this hot-reload feature the whole time, and just have never found much use for it. Or maybe I just don&#x27;t trust it.
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skeledrew10 months ago
The answer to that is in the number of community *GPL (not permissively licensed) projects they&#x27;re actively supporting.
jrochkind110 months ago
So, anyone in that community want to give an update of what&#x27;s happened since 2021, regarding what was discussed?
xet710 months ago
Microsoft is able to keep GitHub and npmjs.com online, despite all the DDoS attacks. It requires a huge amount of servers, bandwidth etc, to have all the repos, downloads, etc online. Having those online makes coding FOSS possible.<p>There are some FOSS alternatives to GitHub, but they have had more problems staying online.
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bb8810 months ago
Remember the quote from Steve Ballmer? &quot;Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!&quot;<p>Apple is winning, somehow.
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rvz10 months ago
Can you trust an alligator with your head in its mouth not to eat you?
cwales9510 months ago
No one company can be.
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cottsak10 months ago
`dotnet watch` works fine. Why is this current news?
lenerdenator10 months ago
Given some of IBM RedHat&#x27;s shenanigans, I&#x27;d say they can probably be trusted as much as anyone else at this point.
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ffhhj10 months ago
Wait, they already ran away with it. ChatGPT.
trod12310 months ago
The problem with discussions like these, and one that goes nearly always unspoken, is the problem of credibility.<p>When you deal with deceitful people, credibility matters.<p>The only time credibility does not matter is when you can independently verify what is being said, such as through a framework like Descartes Rules of Method, Logic, or some other epistemological method that is appropriate. Only then does credibility not matter because you can judge for yourself because it has appropriate rational backing.<p>When you are solely down to an entity that does not use such a framework; credibility matters.. and by extension reputation and past actions take on more importance than hollow words.<p>Microsoft, especially when it was run by Bill Gates, was never a credible entity. Today, it is run by accountants seeking to ride the knifes edge of what the market will bear, and in the process provide as little value as possible for creations that were made decades ago, ride the gravy train until it goes into the ocean.<p>While the people at Microsoft certainly have come up with some neat features and projects, when looking at these features&#x2F;products and the history behind them (i.e. looking at Powershell), these were largely complete accidents, and&#x2F;or significant internal politicking that could have gone either way because there was little to no profit in it. Their engineers used to be some of the best, but it matters little when the Accountants are in charge and see everything in a risk averse lens.<p>Once you lose credibility, it is almost impossible to get it back because you have to do so much more than it would have cost originally just to tip the scales back to even. Perception is sticky like that.<p>To get back to the core question, can we trust Microsoft with Open Source... No you can&#x27;t, not ever, because they are solely concerned with making profit and stealing whatever they can under the color of law. Open Source doesn&#x27;t make profit.<p>The rise of open source is the natural outcome when barriers to entry in a market impose costs so high that you can&#x27;t do business without those features, (excluding participants from that market, monopolistic ally), and open source is exploitive free labor that&#x27;s been used to create an alternative to those products when no business can compete due to the simple mathematics of costs.<p>Even the big players can&#x27;t compete with free for long without diversifying which is why FOSS is still around today. Volunteers, and some non-standard funding routes which aren&#x27;t really all that viable at scale. This is also why Microsoft as an entity has been trying to poison pill Linux for awhile, they want to be the only game in town and read everything you write in Office; build a dossier, and sell it to the highest bidder. What could be more valuable then the thoughts of every single person using their product.<p>Of course they&#x27;ll claim they aren&#x27;t doing this (deceitfully), just like Google claims they don&#x27;t wiretap and listen to surrounding endpoint devices they don&#x27;t own to show you ads related to what you were talking about in your own home.
Dachande66310 months ago
(2021)
mediumsmart10 months ago
Absolutely and about as far as you can throw a Steinway.
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RadixDLT10 months ago
You can’t trust them as far as you can throw them.
Hackbraten10 months ago
My personal moment where Microsoft briefly showed me its true form:<p>Microsoft&#x27;s Python language server extension for VS Code (Pylance) has been crashing on launch on one of my machines for twelve months or so.<p>One day, I got fed up with it and opened the extension in a JS debugger to investigate. Immediately after opening it, the extension fully deliberately DoSed [0] the CPU core with a full-on ReDoS [1] attack, leaving it spinning at 100% forever.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;darmstadt.social&#x2F;@claudi&#x2F;112866065489514979" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;darmstadt.social&#x2F;@claudi&#x2F;112866065489514979</a><p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ReDoS" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ReDoS</a>
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ekvintroj10 months ago
No, just fork it.
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avidseeker10 months ago
Can we trust Facebook with Fediverse (2024)?
compiler-devel10 months ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...</a>
widea10 months ago
The question implies the answer...
pipeline_peak10 months ago
Microsoft still gets shat on for their 90s reputation, yet I rarely hear open source people complain about Google or Apple…
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trinsic210 months ago
Im not an active developer with Microsoft products, but I have questions. Why is this relevant now being this was written in 2021? Is something similar happening again?<p>Also I am confused, with many corporations getting into poisoning products for financial gains (enshitification) why are people still talking about engaging with companies that have a proven historical track record that they do not have good moatives?
RadixDLT10 months ago
Why don&#x27;t programmers like nature? Because it has too many bugs!
debacle10 months ago
Unfortunately, you can trust MS about as much as any company in 2024. The core ethos of OSS is, in many ways, a thing of the past.
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firesteelrain10 months ago
I know a lot of Microsoft people who work in Azure who are big on open source. They know all about KeyCloak, Kubernetes, HashiCorp Vault, Terraform, etc<p>It’s not your Dad’s Microsoft
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