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Launch HN: Sorcerer (YC S24) – Weather balloons that collect more data

365 pointsby tndl9 months ago
Hey HN! We’re Max, Alex, and Austin, the team behind Sorcerer (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sorcerer.earth">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sorcerer.earth</a>). Sorcerer builds weather balloons that last for over six months, collecting 1000x more data per dollar and reaching previously inaccessible regions.<p>In 1981, weather disasters caused $3.5 billion in damages in the United States. In 2023, that number was $94.9 billion (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncei.noaa.gov&#x2F;access&#x2F;billions&#x2F;time-series" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncei.noaa.gov&#x2F;access&#x2F;billions&#x2F;time-series</a>). The National Weather Service spends billions annually on its network of weather balloons, satellites, and aircraft sensors – generating hundreds of terabytes of data every day. This data, called observation data, is fed into massive supercomputers running advanced physics to produce global weather forecasts. Despite this cost, there are still places in the US where we don&#x27;t know what the temperature will be two days from now: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;climate-environment&#x2F;interactive&#x2F;2024&#x2F;how-accurate-is-the-weather-forecast&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;climate-environment&#x2F;interacti...</a>. And for the rest of the world that lacks weather infrastructure? There’s always the Weather Rock: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Weather_rock" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Weather_rock</a>.<p>The most important data for these forecasts come from vertical data ‘slices’ of the atmosphere, called soundings. Every day 2,500 single-use latex radiosondes are launched across the globe to collect these soundings. They stay aloft for about two hours before popping and falling back to Earth. Launch sites for these systems are sparse in Latin America and Africa, and they’re completely non-existent over oceans. This leaves about 80% of the globe with inadequate weather data for accurate predictions.<p>The coverage gap became painfully evident to Max and Alex during their time at Urban Sky. While building balloons for high-altitude aerial imaging, they kept running into a problem: no matter what weather forecast they used, they couldn’t get accurate wind predictions for the upper atmosphere. They tried all of the free and commercial forecast products, but none of them were accurate enough. Digging into it more, we learned that a big part of the problem was the lack of high-quality in-situ data at those altitudes.<p>To solve this problem, our systems ascend and descend between sea level and 65,000ft several times a day to collect vertical data soundings. Each vehicle (balloon + payload) weighs less than a pound and can be launched from anywhere in the world, per the FAA and ICAO reg. Here’s one we launched from Potrero Hill in SF, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;75fN5WpRWH0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;75fN5WpRWH0</a> and here’s another near the Golden Gate Bridge, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;7yLmzLPUFVQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;7yLmzLPUFVQ</a>. Although we can’t “drive” these balloons laterally, we can use opposing wind layers to target or avoid specific regions. Here’s what a few simulated flight paths look like, to give you an idea: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;F_Di8cjaEUY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;F_Di8cjaEUY</a><p>Our payload uses a satellite transceiver for communications and a small, thin film solar panel array to generate power. In addition to the weather data, we also get real-time telemetry from the vehicles, which we use to optimize their flight paths. This includes maintaining the optimal spacing between balloons and steering them to a recovery zone at the end of their lifespan so we can recycle them.<p>These systems spend most of their time in the stratosphere which is an extremely unforgiving environment. We’ll often see temperatures as low as -80°C while flying near the equator. Throughout the day, we experience extreme temperature cycling as they ascend and descend through the atmosphere. We’ll often encounter 100mph+ wind shears near the boundary with the troposphere (the tropopause) that can rip apart the balloon envelope. These conditions make the stratosphere a very difficult place to deploy to prod.<p>The real magic of what we’re building will come into play when we have hundreds of these systems in the air over data-sparse regions. But even now, we can do useful and interesting things with them. Some of our early customers are companies who fly very big, very expensive things into the stratosphere. They use our balloons to give them a clear idea of what conditions are ahead of their operations, and we’re working on a forecast product specifically designed for the stratosphere.<p>The combination of long duration and low cost is novel. We can theoretically maintain thousands of balloons in the atmosphere at any given time for a tenth of the cost of one useful weather satellite. We’re also using the data we collect to train AI models that produce forecasts with better accuracy than existing numerical (supercomputer) forecasts. Because we’re collecting totally unique data over areas that lack observation, our models will maintain a consistent edge versus models that are only trained on open data.<p>We’re really excited to be launching Sorcerer here with you! We’d love to hear what you think. And if you find one of our balloons in the Bay Area: Sorry! It’s still a work in progress (and please get it back to us).<p>I’ll leave you all with a bonus video of Paul Buchheit launching one of our balloons, which we thought was pretty cool: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=-sngF9VvDzg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=-sngF9VvDzg</a>

50 comments

jviotti9 months ago
Very cool! How are the balloons transferring telemetry back to earth for analysis, etc?<p>Asking because my research at the University of Oxford was around hyper space-efficient data transfer from remote locations for a fraction of the price.<p>The result was an award-winning technology (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jsonbinpack.sourcemeta.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jsonbinpack.sourcemeta.com</a>) to serialise plain JSON that was proven to be more space-efficient than every tested alternative (including Protocol Buffers, Apache Avro, ASN.1, etc) in every tested case (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;abs&#x2F;2211.12799" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;abs&#x2F;2211.12799</a>).<p>If it&#x27;s interesting, I&#x27;d love to connect and discuss (jv@jviotti.com) how at least the open-source offering could help.
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johnsillings9 months ago
This is one of the most fascinating Launch HNs in a while. Excited to follow your progress and congrats on the launch!
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firesteelrain9 months ago
Very Cool! We have made and built many PicoBalloons that have circumnavigated the globe. No weather reports - just WSPR reports. We can detect spots in the world where GPS spoofing is happening.<p>“ Each vehicle (balloon + payload) weighs less than a pound and can be launched from anywhere in the world, per the FAA and ICAO reg”<p>Florida recently passed a law that does not allow PicoBalloon or your weather balloon type launches from Florida soil. It will result in a $150 fine.<p>HB321<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.flsenate.gov&#x2F;Session&#x2F;Bill&#x2F;2024&#x2F;321&#x2F;BillText&#x2F;er&#x2F;PDF" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.flsenate.gov&#x2F;Session&#x2F;Bill&#x2F;2024&#x2F;321&#x2F;BillText&#x2F;er&#x2F;P...</a><p>Article<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbsnews.com&#x2F;miami&#x2F;news&#x2F;floridas-balloon-ban-will-protect-sea-turtles-birds-and-other-marine-life&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbsnews.com&#x2F;miami&#x2F;news&#x2F;floridas-balloon-ban-will...</a>
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simjnd9 months ago
&gt; These conditions make the stratosphere a very difficult place to deploy to prod<p>This sentence is legendary
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tagami9 months ago
For those interested, check out Bill Brown, the grandfather of lightweight modern ballooning. Multiple circumnavigations have been achieved with his equipment. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.stratoballooning.org&#x2F;membership#!biz&#x2F;id&#x2F;5f4d7b97c79e8d2604025a39" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.stratoballooning.org&#x2F;membership#!biz&#x2F;id&#x2F;5f4d7b97...</a>
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reachableceo9 months ago
Happy to discuss super pressure &#x2F; float in depth.<p>Can help with the federal contract side and mass manufacturing etc.<p>Charles@turnsys.com
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pagade9 months ago
To a layperson like me, could you explain how these balloons will be cleaned up &#x2F; collected after their life? What material are they made up of?
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aflukasz9 months ago
&gt; In 1981, weather disasters caused $3.5 billion in damages in the United States. In 2023, that number was $94.9 billion (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncei.noaa.gov&#x2F;access&#x2F;billions&#x2F;time-series" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncei.noaa.gov&#x2F;access&#x2F;billions&#x2F;time-series</a>).<p>Does that surprise someone? I think I would not have guessed this growth to be on such a scale. The chart suggests that severe storms are the main culprit.
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OhMeadhbh9 months ago
Cool Stuff. Sounds like you&#x27;re following your dreams and doing something that needs doing.<p>It would be very cool if you could do an open house for bay area geeks to come and just ooh and ahh at the gadgetry. Even a virtual open house would be cool. Something less than a full demo, and more focused on the story behind the gestation and launch of the project (and then a demo.)
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dev2point09 months ago
This is awesome, how do you manage climbing and descending with a balloon. Are you compressing the gas on board or using thermals?
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hubraumhugo9 months ago
Very cool to see more YC hard tech startups emerging [0]. These are the kind of moonshot projects I love to see getting funded (instead of just SaaS and AI).<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ycombinator.com&#x2F;companies&#x2F;industry&#x2F;hard-tech">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ycombinator.com&#x2F;companies&#x2F;industry&#x2F;hard-tech</a>
datageek_319 months ago
Since you are generating hundreds of terabytes of data every day, can we get some insight into what the data platform is being used here to handle such scale?
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xd19369 months ago
Very cool, congrats on the launch. You&#x27;re spending nearly all of your time in the stratosphere collecting data, but what correlation does that have to ground forecasts? Are your &quot;AI models&quot; that you&#x27;re producing forecasting stratosphere conditions, or more than that?
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gusgordon9 months ago
This is awesome, nice work! In case it&#x27;s useful, I made a Python package for calculating solar irradiance at altitude: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;gusgordon&#x2F;airmass">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;gusgordon&#x2F;airmass</a><p>Takes into account lots of stuff (e.g. attenuation from air, ozone, and water vapor) with the goal of estimating solar power at any altitude&#x2F;latitude&#x2F;day&#x2F;time.
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araes9 months ago
Your product idea is cool, the actual sell-able data to me, from a data scientist perspective, that is actually actionable (corp words!), is nil. I can&#x27;t even figure out what you actually collect.<p>Also, your website runs like a dog, and make me not want to find out. It runs like a dog displaying dots ... on a sphere. With like, four (4), other images of note. Seriously, talk to one of these WASM demo people, this is sad for a company that posts here. &quot;Book a Demo&quot; with somebody that can write WebGL. I booked and canceled an appointment on Thu (4) Aug (8) 22, 2024 8:00 on your incredibly vague G. Calendar signup. It&#x27;s a 42 joke. Learn WebGL.<p>And while you&#x27;re at it, stop making websites that write 1000x &#x2F; $ and &quot;Book a Demo&quot; without even vaguely mentioning cost. Give me a $100,000, I&#x27;ll give you a $100. This sounds like an excellent business from my perspective. How bout you hand me your bank account, and I&#x27;ll hand you $100.
bnycum9 months ago
Awesome project. I currently work on flight data recorders. As you are aware, weather plays a big part in aviation. We do collect some weather information and it’s always one of the more exciting topics in the work we do. Understand a lot of the pain points with data and satellite communication. Sounds like something to keep my eye on.
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justinl339 months ago
as someone who&#x27;s worked on a project involving weather data for agriculture over developing regions, I can&#x27;t explain how bad (sparse and inconsistent) the data is. Can I ask how you handled the regulatory aspect of launching from urban areas in SF? I can imagine the FAA would have given you some trouble?
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petervandijck9 months ago
When they said &quot;launch more often&quot; I guess you took that advice to heart :) Congrats on the launch(es).
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hyperific9 months ago
It seems to me there is a real application for wide area persistent surveillance (WAPS). This is a significant concern for civil liberties and WAPS is a largely controversial technology. To whom will this technology be licensed and what, if any, limitations will you impose on allowed payloads?
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DoctorOetker9 months ago
Is there a reason weather balloons can&#x27;t be designed to stay aloft for much longer? is it really impossible to miniaturize gas separators in weight to replenish the lighter fraction of molecules to compensate for the slow leakage?
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voxelizer9 months ago
Wow! I am surprised it is even legan to launch those ballons from SF, specially that close to the airport. What is the regulation? Is it based on the size&#x2F;weigth of the ballon?
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pkhodiyar9 months ago
curious to know how you guys store and process the data and make meaningful inferences out of the data collected. Redshift? BigQuery? Datazip?
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Prcmaker9 months ago
Nice one team, I like it. Anything a remote mech eng can help with? Not looking to be hired, but keen to help with something different.
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thoop9 months ago
Very cool and very useful!<p>&quot;Worldwide, most radiosonde observations are taken daily at 00Z and 12Z (6 a.m. and 6 p.m. EST)&quot; - NOAA.gov<p>I know we get more weather data from other sources, but it seems insane that these 2 launch times per day (per balloon location) are what make up most of our current weather forecasting data.<p>You mentioned solar. Do you have the capability (or plans) to run these over night as well?
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mbokinala9 months ago
Congrats on the launch! Seeing this reminded me of building and launching a high-altitude weather balloon with some buddies back in high school - one of the coolest projects I&#x27;ve gotten to work on.<p>If it&#x27;s not proprietary, I&#x27;d love to know - how do you &quot;steer&quot; vertically between different wind layers to move in the direction you want to go?<p>Can&#x27;t wait to see where you guys take this!
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mrandish9 months ago
Very cool! Seems like you&#x27;re leveraging some similar navigational ideas as Google X&#x27;s Project Loon. Loon was such a good fundamental idea, just a little too soon and not the right use case or business model. Initially operating on a smaller scale and focusing on less power-hungry data acquisition vs high bandwidth two way comms seems like a much more viable plan.
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ahaucnx9 months ago
Interesting. I have two questions:<p>1) What parameters are you measuring ? Did you think about also measuring gases?<p>2) What&#x27;s your business model?
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ramonyc9 months ago
Neat :) I&#x27;m involved in a few projects focused on vertical profiling in the coastal urban boundary layer.<p>I saw in a response you said the balloons will periodically return to sea level and ascend (which sounds like a fun design challenge by itself.) Will you be doing so near populated areas as well?<p>Good luck!
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bobbob19219 months ago
Very cool and wishing you all the best of luck.<p>One question that came to mind, and this applies to all weather baloons not yours specifically, with the large number of weather balloons launched daily, how is it That more aren’t sucked into airplane engines causing potential disaster for the airplane? Thanks
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zebomon9 months ago
This is awesome! Congratulations! It makes sense to me as a layperson that as more companies are doing more expensive things in the sky there would be greater value to high-precision weather insights. This seems like an exciting mission and well-timed business.
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plopz9 months ago
For your gridded data, what file format are you using, grib, netcdf, zarr?
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chasemgray9 months ago
This looks amazing. Super exciting to see how this project grows!
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cstasuik9 months ago
Incredibly cool, thanks for sharing. Are you planning on hiring any time soon? Also, if you don&#x27;t mind sharing, what designer&#x2F;firm worked on your web and branding?
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popctrl9 months ago
This sounds like super interesting and meaningful work. Are you hiring, or do you have any advice for your average software engineer on getting into this space?
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lispisok9 months ago
If this works this is huge. It will improve everything from knowing the weather for your weekend hike to hurricane evacuation order lead time and area
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h1fra9 months ago
Once in a while, a very interesting project that seems to be truly disrupting, congrats!
mnky9800n9 months ago
How many balloons do you have currently deployed? Do you have a data API for the balloons?
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Faaak9 months ago
Check ou r2ho.me, I&#x27;m sure you could have great synergies for lowering price
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tomnicholas19 months ago
So the equivalent of these balloons in oceanography are called ARGO floats, which similarly cannot be driven laterally but can control their own depth like a submarine. So far millions of timeseries have been collected across the world ocean using these floats.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;argo.ucsd.edu&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;argo.ucsd.edu&#x2F;</a><p>One difference though is that the ARGO floats are unfortunately not recycled, and just wash up on various beaches. (I&#x27;m curious whether you think you can realistically collect many of these mini balloons?)<p>If you do want to control the lateral position of fleets of sensors, oceanographers also now have &quot;gliders&quot;, which are basically small powered drone submarines. These are used by a few groups, but most of the gliders in the world are operated by the US Navy, who launch them out of torpedo tubes to survey local ocean conditions (which is badass).<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;oceanservice.noaa.gov&#x2F;facts&#x2F;ocean-gliders.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;oceanservice.noaa.gov&#x2F;facts&#x2F;ocean-gliders.html</a><p>The recorded measurements present an interesting data assimilation challenge - they record data along 3D trajectories (4D including time), sampling jagged and twisting lines through the 4D space. But we normally prefer to think of weather&#x2F;ocean data as gridded, so you need to interpolate the trajectory data onto the grid, whilst keeping the result physically-consistent. Oceanographers use systems like ECCO for ocean state estimation, which effectively find the &quot;ocean of best fit&quot; to various data sources.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecco-group.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecco-group.org&#x2F;</a><p>Interestingly ECCO uses an auto-differentiable form of the governing equations for the ocean flow to ensure that updates stay physically consistent. This works by using a differentiable ocean fluid model called [MITgcm](<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;MITgcm&#x2F;MITgcm">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;MITgcm&#x2F;MITgcm</a>) to perform runs which match experimental data as closely as possible, and minimizing a loss function through gradient descent. The gradient is of a loss function (error) with respect to model input parameters + forcings, which is calculated by running MITgcm in adjoint mode - i.e. automatic differentation. Therefore this approach is sort of ML before it was cool (they were doing all this well before the new batch of AI weather models). See slides 9-18 of this deck for a nice explanation<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;firebasestorage.googleapis.com&#x2F;v0&#x2F;b&#x2F;firescript-577a2.appspot.com&#x2F;o&#x2F;imgs%2Fapp%2FTEGNicholas%2FS_5SIkF9wM.pdf?alt=media&amp;token=8754663d-ce5c-4dba-afd7-fb7ac2e390f2" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;firebasestorage.googleapis.com&#x2F;v0&#x2F;b&#x2F;firescript-577a2...</a><p>The trajectory data is also interesting because it&#x27;s sort of tabular, but also you often want to query it in an array-like 4D space. You could also call it a &quot;ragged&quot; array. We have nice open-source tools for gridded (non-ragged) arrays (e.g. xarray and zarr, and the pangeo.io project) but I think we could provide scientists with better tools for trajectory-like data in general. If that seems relevant to you I would love to chat.<p>P.S: Sorceror seems awesome, and I applaud you for working on something hard-tech &amp; climate-tech!
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lormayna9 months ago
As someone that is involved in catching radiosondes, this is quite cool!
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kyrofa9 months ago
This is a great idea. I had no idea about the single-use radiosondes.
nilaymodi1239 months ago
Congrats on launching. I love this idea. Makes so much sense haha
zuckerma9 months ago
This looks super cool
StanislavPetrov9 months ago
Sounds very cool.<p>Sorcerer was also an amazing Infocom game. Good company.
worldmerge9 months ago
This is incredibly cool!<p>Are you hiring? This is really exciting work.
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underdeserver9 months ago
How did you come up with the name?
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ptsd_dalmatian9 months ago
Very exciting, congrats on this! I’ve been watching numerous weather forecasts over the last couple of years because of my interests in mountain sports, and I am very very curious how will this improve forecast accuracy. Good luck worh everything.
supdudesupdude9 months ago
Cool stuff but i&#x27;ve never seen much come out of these kinds of things. Crowd sourced surface pressure application will bring in so many observations the forecasts will be improved 30%. Fuck no.<p>So you really think you can launch a giant network of balloons and have that data integrated into the NOAA&#x2F;NCEP model suite? Even if you get over the red tape it will take 10 years + to integrate this shit into the data assimilation program. You claim that you can input your balloon data into magical AI and it produces better forecasts than what the GFS? What is the standard of measurement I dont actually believe you at all
nojvek9 months ago
YC money well spent instead of the next LLM app.
PaywallBuster9 months ago
flying condom &#x2F;s<p>the idea sounds great tho!