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The fanless heatsink: Silent, dust-immune, and almost ready for prime time

220 pointsby mrsebastianalmost 13 years ago

20 comments

ojbyrnealmost 13 years ago
"fanless" seems like unnecessary hyperbole. The heatsink is a fan, which is cool enough that it doesn't need to be oversold.
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jholmanalmost 13 years ago
Many of the questions in this comments thread (e.g. safety, e.g. vertical mounting, e.g. cost associated with the bearings, e.g. the basis of the 7% figure) are already answered directly or indirectly in a year-old Q&#38;A article that was linked from TFA.<p><a href="http://www.extremetech.com/computing/90272-the-fanless-spinning-heatsink-your-questions-answered-by-the-inventor?print" rel="nofollow">http://www.extremetech.com/computing/90272-the-fanless-spinn...</a><p>Not very good-HN-citizen-ish to post questions without putting any work at all into looking for the answers, is it?
moonbootsalmost 13 years ago
Does this heatsink work when it's mounted vertically? The "hydroplaning"/floating effect seems to suggest the heatsink must be resting on the base instead of suspended sideways.
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hetmanalmost 13 years ago
I remember seeing this a year ago. It's a bit worrying that in that time they still haven't gotten around to building a prototype that will be as quiet as the claimed final product. While that doesn't mean it can't be done, it may point to deeper issues in the project such as yet unaddressed technical challenges or lack of funding (which might in turn suggest lack of investor conviction).<p>Personally I'm curious what the failure rate will look like with these things. Given it will probably be higher than existing PC cooling fans which are moving lighter loads, this may indeed be a problem.
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robomartinalmost 13 years ago
From the article: "This centrifugal force is what gives the Sandia Cooler such massive efficiency, too."<p>That is not correct. The efficiency boost comes from the very efficient transfer of heat from the CPU to the spinning fan/heat exchanger by, effectively, using the very thin air-gap under the impeller. The rotation of the impeller breaks the boundary layer in the airgap and you get good heat transfer across a very thin gap.<p>The airflow over the machined aluminum blades and, in general, the rotation of the entire impeller assembly, serve to keep the heat exchanger free from dust accumulation (which restricts heat flow).<p>Of course, as many have pointed out, it remains to be seen how easily this concept translates to a mass-manufactured low-cost solution in terms of performance and reliability under varying conditions.<p>I've done a ton of heat flow FEA work when working on various approaches to cool a custom high-power LED array (1,500W power-in). We could get reasonable results with complex forced-air solutions and relatively expensive custom machined heatsinks as well as carefully modeled airflow controls. In these cases the solutions were always very large (volume).<p>When we switched to fluid-based cooling things changed dramatically. One of the design challenges was to maintain a narrow delta-T across the LED array. This is because thermal uniformity was required in order to have uniform performance across the array. The fluid solution, with some tricks, could easily achieve ten times better thermal uniformity than the air-cooled approach. And, in addition to this, cool the entire array to a much lower final temperature.<p>A fluid cooling system was constructed using only a small fluid pump and no air-moving fans at all. A passive natural convection radiator could easily handle the heat-load in a normal air-conditioned office environment.<p>While I have not looked at the specific case of cooling a CPU, based on my experience I have to say that far greater gains can be had by rapidly moving heat from the CPU surface using fluid-based cooling. This, effectively, creates the opportunity for much greater surface extension than can reasonably be applied to the small surface area of a CPU.<p>Again, I have never studied CPU cooling, but I am not sure that this 150W cooling limit applies to fluid-based cooling. I can see building a systems that can very easily move 150W, or even double that, using a relatively simple fluidic cooler. At some level it is a matter of how many molecules of the fluid you can move across the CPU-side heat exchanger per unit time. The answer to that is "a lot".<p>I can't see the Sandia or any other pure air-based cooling system used for CPU cooling at the extremes. The assembly would have to be very precisely manufactured and lots of work would have to be done in order to ensure that vibrations and harmonics of the motor drive system itself don't cause damage to the circuit board. If the system needs to have an impeller spinning at 2K RPM or more, lots of work needs to go into making it safe for servicing as a metal impeller like that can shred fingers in an instant.<p>Finally, there's the question of the mass of the spinning impeller. In order to transfer heat into the impeller blades you are limited to certain geometry. If the spinning base and/or the blades get too thin you simply won't be able to move the heat out no matter how well it can move from the stationary plate up to the revolving disk. This is critical and it means that there are certain minimum geometry constraints that are likely to make the impeller somewhat massive. From my FEA work on heat transfer I know that you can only go so thin on blades before they become useless past a few millimeters above the heatsink base-plate. The same is the case here.<p>What I can see is the use of this concept to create a fluid based solution that uses a liquid to quickly move heat from a CPU to a much larger heat exchanger that uses the Sandia heatsink to move heat into the surrounding air, and, thereby, cool the CPU. Even at that, I'd like to see data comparing conventional forced-air convection cooling of the external heat exchanger and even a comparison to a natural convection solution.
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stevewilberalmost 13 years ago
The video mentions that transferring heat to the impeller is a challenge, but it wasn't clear to me how they overcame this. Is the space between the CPU and the impeller so small that heat can be transferred efficiently?<p>If that is the case, I wonder how cheaply these could be produced given the incredibly tight clearance.
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johnpmayeralmost 13 years ago
I'm somewhat confused; do demonstrate how quiet it is, they turn off the loud motor that keeps it running?
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tadfisheralmost 13 years ago
I'm not sure what problem this is trying to solve. I have a truly fanless heatsink [1] that is ducted to a 120mm case fan at 1000RPM, which is guaranteed to produce less noise than a 2000RPM rotating metal disaster. A plus is that there is no air gap necessitating such a high rotation speed.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/cpu/hr01plus/product_cpu_cooler_hr01plus.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/cpu/hr01...</a>
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tedunangstalmost 13 years ago
<i>if every conventional heatsink in the US was replaced with a Sandia Cooler, the country would use 7% less electricity. For the most part, these savings would come from air conditioning and refrigeration systems</i><p>How does that work? Is the same amount of heat not being expelled from the chip into the room? Does transferring the heat with a smaller fan somehow make it smaller heat?
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Uchikomaalmost 13 years ago
The fanless heatsink is a fan. Duh. YMMV but I'd not call it fanless.
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jmsduranalmost 13 years ago
This is a very interesting heatsink design. That said, having a finned heatsink spinning at 2000+ RPM seems potentially dangerous, especially if someone were to touch it with their bare fingers while it's operating.
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Tooalmost 13 years ago
Last time this was one hacker news someone suggested mounting the chip onto the heatsink and spin the whole thing, without any thermally conductive bearing. Still an awesome idea imo.
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bltalmost 13 years ago
That part looks really expensive to manufacture. It's machined. Can they make it out of molded plastic (like fans) or sheet metal (like CPU heatsinks)?
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dfreyalmost 13 years ago
If this ever makes it to mass market, there will be some bloody knuckles on people who are trying to make small adjustments to the inside of their computer case while it is running. It's basically 100 butter knives spinning at 2000 rpm.
gourangaalmost 13 years ago
I was hoping to see something like a peltier heat pump which has no mechanical parts.
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hexagonalalmost 13 years ago
Previous thread: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2754725" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2754725</a>
mrgreenfuralmost 13 years ago
This is a year old. Why did slashdot move here?
simonbarker87almost 13 years ago
Simple idea, seems obvious when you think about it. Glad this wasn't just a Peltier device
dazmaxalmost 13 years ago
I'm hoping Apple is waiting for this to be ready before they update the Mac Pro hardware.
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excuse-mealmost 13 years ago
I wonder how cheap and reliable are the bearings needed to run a 2000rpm 'fan' 1/1000" above a heat pipe, while being vibrated by hard drives and PSU fans, shaken around in laptops.<p>Generally you can have bearings that are small/fast/precise or cheap - generally not all 4.
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