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Another burnout post

87 pointsby gushogg-blake7 months ago

29 comments

tombert7 months ago
My life got much better when I realized that I actually don&#x27;t like &quot;programming&quot;.<p>I like solving problems <i>using</i> programming languages, and like designing large systems with computers, but I don&#x27;t actually enjoy the programming itself. Programming without the designing part just feels like data entry to me. There&#x27;s nothing clever, or creative, or interesting about it.<p>For years I&#x27;ve dealt with severe burnout because I had been lying to myself and taking jobs that where I didn&#x27;t really have to &quot;think&quot;, and I had no fun doing it, leading to me feeling like I had really chosen the wrong career path and that I was stuck feeling bored for the rest of my life.<p>Once I realized that programming for the sake of programming isn&#x27;t fun, I started putting my attention to jobs where I made it clear that I&#x27;m going to be involved in the design and decision-making process, and almost immediately I actually enjoyed working again, after many years of not.<p>I&#x27;m not saying this is universal, if you like writing Java for the sake of writing Java, don&#x27;t let me take that away from you, it&#x27;s just not something I enjoy. Figuring out what you <i>actually</i> enjoy doing is deceptively hard, but a worthwhile goal.
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eweise7 months ago
Work is named &quot;work&quot; for a reason. Its a lot not fun. I&#x27;ve been slinging code for 35 years. It pays the bills, sends my kids to college etc. Of course i&#x27;m burned out but I would be tired of anything after this long. Trick for me is to not to make work my purpose. Instead I bike, hike, make music, raise my kids, etc. I also don&#x27;t work overtime or weekends even though almost everyone else on my team does. They will not make it for the long run like that.
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ThalesX7 months ago
Disclaimer: nothing substantial, just a bit of trauma dump<p>I&#x27;ve been a developer for more than a decade. Body-shops. Founding engineer. Chief Technology Officer. After every job in my life I took 6 - 12 months off.<p>Usually my desire for programming comes back somewhere around the 5th month mark. I&#x27;m in such a &#x27;holiday&#x27; now, and just passed the 12 month mark. I don&#x27;t feel that desire coming back anymore.<p>I&#x27;ve been blessed to have a friend that had a gig where I can do some ETL and cover my monthly expenses, but whenever I start looking for new jobs, reading the ads, all those keywords, all those bullshit descriptions of what they expect, I&#x27;m starting to develop a physical repulsion.<p>I&#x27;ve done a couple of interviews, and the HR discussions and then the technical interviews have left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. I&#x27;m afraid I&#x27;ll hiss in the next zoom call. And it&#x27;s not even for not getting accepted, as I got an offer from all the talks. But the whole industry gives me a bad taste right now. Everything just feels futile and fluffed up. My last interview was for a hair &amp; beauty appointment app start-up where they acted like they cure cancer.<p>I&#x27;d like to be my old self, but I&#x27;m afraid I might not get that part back. I took a look at &#x27;regular&#x27; jobs and the idea of being a truck driver lit up something in me that programming hasn&#x27;t in a very long time. Even being a shop clerk makes me dream more than wrangling code.<p>I realize this is childish, and that the grass is always greener on the other side. I know that there are challenges in every profession and that I have a comfortable home office and get paid a shit ton of money for what I do and this is better than 99% of the planet.<p>I just hope to be able to get back on track mentally and not feel like this.
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smokedetector17 months ago
&gt; It doesn’t require the full engagement of your entire person, like psychotherapy or software engineering. A long career would be soul-destroying, for sure, but a day of driving can be ploughed through much more easily by physical brute force than can a day of software engineering.<p>I think this post comes across as unpleasant because it is so dismissive of other peoples struggles. If you just said, yeah software engineering isn&#x27;t for me, that&#x27;s one thing. But you&#x27;re saying software engineering is objectively the most difficult, soul-destroying, draining job, and other people have it easier in this respect. Im sorry but that&#x27;s just objectively not true.<p>I would push you to consider that, maybe, something else is going on for you individually, rather than write off the entire endeavor due to an objective analysis. I worked for years at a cancer center and while there were many times that the work was dry, lonely, alienating, at the end of the day I still felt I was doing something good for the world and that felt really good.<p>There&#x27;s a lot of ways to apply software, and, maybe more to the point, a lot of ways to integrate it into your life with balance. What about part-time work, so you have more space for other parts of your life you find satisfying? You may find that, with more balance, you enjoy what the work <i>does</i> have to offer, such as being part of a team, being needed, being well-compensated, using your whole intellect, etc.<p>Best wishes
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VyseofArcadia7 months ago
I think very few software engineering jobs are set up to be enjoyable (or even tolerable) to a large fraction of the people who are drawn to such jobs.<p>I&#x27;m self taught[0]. I was drawn to computers at an early age, and I was hacking little projects together in a couple of different languages by the time I was in middle school. This was a very solitary activity for a very introverted boy, and I loved it. I still love it. Nothing compares to sitting down at a computer and just letting the logic flow through me unimpeded and onto the screen.<p>My job is not like that. I have 2 - 5 meetings a day. I am constantly coordinating and brainstorming and just plain dealing with other people. That is more draining than the coding. Sometimes I have a decent chunk of time at the end of the day, but I can&#x27;t even bring myself to code because I am so drained by all of the non-coding stuff I had to do earlier in the day.<p>I love my job. I do impactful work for an impactful company that I think is doing actual good in the world. I work on an interesting project, and they pay and treat me well. But in my heart of hearts what I really want to be is not a software engineer but instead some kind of self-directed code hermit.<p>[0] By which I mean I learned from books and examples and experimentation. I did eventually get a computer science degree also, but I had been coding for years before I took my first class in it.
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freeplay7 months ago
I feel this very deeply. At the same time, I feel shame for feeling this way. I have a very high paying job, excellent flexibility, and I work from home. It doesn&#x27;t get much better. Except that when I sit down at the computer, the actual work and meetings to talk about the work are unbelievably draining.<p>The shame is because I know others would love to be in my position and there is an almost endless list of jobs that are worse than this, but it&#x27;s brutal sometimes. I workout daily and spend the vast majority of my time away from the keyboard, outside.<p>The worst part is, it&#x27;s not just a matter of embrace the suck and push on. In a physical labor job, you can just command the body to move and push through it. In this line of work, you don&#x27;t really have that option. You can&#x27;t just command the brain to solve difficult problems and design complex systems.
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purple-leafy7 months ago
I think I’ve found the remedy to my experience of burnout.<p>I burnt out hard last year and earlier this year (frontend dev). Mental exhaustion, dissatisfaction with work and colleagues, and especially the boss at the time.<p>I made several major changes to fix this.<p>- Dropped to 32 hours in my contract (with pay cut)<p>- Requested to move teams (request fulfilled)<p>- Deep dived into my weak areas that were causing work stress<p>- A short holiday<p>Now I’m happy as can be. Sure I earn 20% less now, but it’s just money. I now have a 50% longer weekend (2 days -&gt; 3 days) AND a 20% shorter work week (5 days -&gt; 4 days)<p>This is the best move I have ever made.<p>Working 5 days a week is a grind, no matter which way you slice the pie. It’s a marathon that never ends. I think it’s okay for most jobs, but in dev jobs you can’t be on autopilot. So often I’m solving bugs that haven’t been seen before.<p>A 4 day week doesn’t seem much different on the surface, but it’s a major change. It no longer feels like a marathon. I actually get more work done comparatively, as I’m more focused and less stressed.<p>Furthermore, I’ve stopped doing projects that relate to my normal stack in my spare time.<p>In my ample spare time, I deep dive C programming and graphics.
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adbmal7 months ago
Meaningful jobs do exist and more can be created. You are a probably high-paid, skilled professional and, contrary to popular belief, you <i>do</i> have agency.<p>Quit your job and start doing something meaningful. Start a company or join one that makes a difference.<p>Take risks, it’s really rewarding.
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stefanos827 months ago
The problem with programmers is that the mind works non-stop while the body is completely still, which goes against its nature, in all respects. When the body is tired, at most a week of rest it recovers nicely and is full of energy! This unfortunately does not apply to the mind, I have tried it and unfortunately I suffer from long-term mental burnout. If I could find another job that wasn&#x27;t so mentally demanding and easy to do, then yes I would quit this field yesterday!
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JohnMakin7 months ago
Good analogy presented here, except some situations can be far worse - what he&#x27;s describing is <i>best</i> case scenario. You can very easily end up in toxic teams&#x2F;situations or with a toxic boss that makes every day miserable for absolutely no reason. Plus all that other stuff.<p>Burnout is real and if I get a whiff for it I immediately seek other options. Having experienced it before, it took about 6 months to recover. There are a lot of warning signs I had ignored when it happened.<p>Unlike the author, I don&#x27;t find any particular joy in programming for the sake of it. It is difficult though, sometimes you can have an extraordinarily complex task that requires a flash of inspiration to solve. The kind of rumination that leads to these flashes typically comes to me in non-working hours, so I feel like I am never &quot;off.&quot; You can&#x27;t just force that kind of thing. If you&#x27;re burnt out, that dynamic is even worse.
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chairmansteve7 months ago
When I was younger, I always had 6 months of living expenses in the bank, a cheap life style, and a willingness to work (and a lot of experience of) menial jobs.<p>That meant that going in to work every day was a choice, not an obligation. More than once, I quit a job and took a break.<p>These days, with mortgage, kids etc, I still maintain the escape hatch.
skrebbel7 months ago
Is this supposed to be some art piece?<p>&gt; <i>That is what professional programming is like. You don’t care about the goal to begin with, it doesn’t have any noticeable effect on the world once each Jira ticket moves over to the Done column, and you don’t have any ownership over the finished product. You just wait for the next Jira ticket.</i><p>Sure, there are jobs like this, but it&#x27;s super weird to claim that all programming jobs are like this.<p>Just.. don&#x27;t work those jobs! Find real jobs at real companies making real products for real people. Don&#x27;t stay at a job where all your work ends up in a black hole of nothingness until you burn out. The burnout means you quit too late.<p>I&#x27;m not saying it&#x27;s easy to find programming jobs that cure cancer, fix climate change or cause world peace, but it&#x27;s really not that hard to find programming jobs where what you make is used by real people and if you make the thing you make better, these real people will tell you that they&#x27;re happy that it&#x27;s now better (and, immediately after, what else needs fixing). This can be all the way from super challenging computer sciency shit to line-of-business CRUD app coding at a small shop in a mid size provincial town for regional customers. It exists everywhere.<p>ps. Personal context: Articles like these mildly offend me because I run a company and we try <i>very</i> hard to make everybody&#x27;s time at the company worth their while. The suggestion that business owners like me do not exist hits hard. In fact, we are many. There&#x27;s plenty bosses and entrepreneurs and managers out there who realize that the more motivated and involved and happy team members are, the better their work will be. Also being the boss of stressed out burned-out programmers sounds like hell to me. I&#x27;d much rather run a team of enthusiastic self-starters! Incentives are, actually, pretty aligned (happy people = great results) and companies where they&#x27;re not are just, in my humble opinion, badly run companies. Don&#x27;t work there.
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gushogg-blake7 months ago
Thanks for the comments. I wasn&#x27;t expecting this to get on the front page (although that is why I posted it, obviously) and kind of wish I&#x27;d spent more time thinking about what I actually wanted to say first. If I&#x27;m 100% honest I was mostly trying to get clicks, which is always a bad motivation and I am generally deliberate about this kind of thing, sorry about that... I don&#x27;t actually feel bitter, or particularly burnt out, with software specifically, it just feels like it&#x27;s not the career for me at the moment. The general point about it often being misunderstood is something I&#x27;ve wanted to articulate at various times though.
OldGuyInTheClub7 months ago
His response of switching to &quot;ancestral&quot; food and jawline modification is ... interesting.
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throwdotnet7 months ago
I agree with the effortfulness that he writes about here. Thinking involves an effort and concentration, that we tend to avoid if not necessary and use shortcuts. I started out enjoying coding a lot and enjoying the learning process that required the hard thinking.<p>For me, about a decade ago, it was going from working on a Winforms app to rewriting it to a web app. We went from about 4 layers to about 6 layers including a .net web api and javascript. Instead of creating business logic classes, most of the work went into plumbing the layers. Instead of being fairly simple, the UI became a slog to get right, and there were constant distractions of code design that looked sloppy in the new layers. Also I think the ASD (or is it ADHD) made it harder to overlook those messy layers. I&#x27;ve never had much patience for the boring stuff and those mental distractions made it harder to persevere through rewriting it.<p>These days I enjoy hobby coding in python and go, but I find it hard to imagine going back to it as a job.
didgetmaster7 months ago
I grew up as an introvert who liked solving puzzles and problems, so I gravitated towards computer programming. I retired a few years ago after a career of 30 years with seven different companies. I still have a personal project (a data management system) that I think about often and write code for new features.<p>Over my career, I had jobs that were interesting and I looked forward to each day (well...most days). I also had some that were soul crushing and I dreaded.<p>Looking back, I realized that the ones where I felt I was in control of my work product were the most fulfilling. I got to decide what to work on and how much effort and time to spend on each task. I wanted the product to succeed in the marketplace and I gave it my best effort.<p>The jobs where it didn&#x27;t feel like my ideas were valued or my work appreciated were the worst. Burnout happened very quickly and I moved on.<p>Interestingly, the ones that I controlled turned out to also be the most profitable for the companies.
djyaz12007 months ago
This says to me these people are working on projects that are not challenging&#x2F;interesting enough with people who don&#x27;t respect their intellect. That&#x27;s a solvable problem.<p>Anecdote... I function as a product manager, and I have a lot of fun with the developers I work with (and have a lot of respect for), and they enjoy working with me. I come to them with complex, interesting problems and my framework for potential solutions, and we talk through whether they think it&#x27;s the right direction and, if so, what I&#x27;ve missed... or they propose alternatives. It&#x27;s like a chess game where we can both win.<p>I hope the OP and anyone feeling this way tries working with other projects and people.
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SirMaster7 months ago
It&#x27;s hard for me as a software developer to understand how soul-destroying it is to work for someone else in this industry.<p>I have worked as a developer for someone else&#x27;s company since college, for 15 years now, and I don&#x27;t know how else to describe it other than I like what I do and find it fun and stimulating.<p>I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s strictly the profession. I think either the person doesn&#x27;t really like it as much as they think they do, or they work for a company that pushes them too hard and doesn&#x27;t treat them well.<p>I guess that&#x27;s obvious, but in my experience at least it doesn&#x27;t have to be that way.
uptownfunk7 months ago
I love how out there this guy seems and kudos to his courage for sharing his thoughts and feelings and being able to go and do something to the beat of his own drum.
naming_the_user7 months ago
&gt; It’s hard to explain to people who aren’t programmers just how soul-destroying it is to work for someone else in this industry. Maddeningly hard, in fact.<p>It&#x27;s hard for me to understand this _as a programmer_. I&#x27;ve been through burnouts and every single time it&#x27;s been a matter of me pushing myself too hard, the external pressure was never actually real.<p>From your blog post it sounds as if realistically you&#x27;re 40k in debt due to jaw surgery which really has nothing to do with programming at all?<p>I dunno man, with the greatest of respect (I appreciate that this is a serious health issue for you) the blog comes across as if you like mushrooms a bit too much.<p>&gt; My sense is that the constricting effect of modern narrow footwear inhibits proper tongue posture via this connection.<p>Seriously? 99% of people wear shoes, have a mouth and have no issues at all with... tongue posture? I don&#x27;t even know what my tongue posture is.
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tra37 months ago
Does burn out exist in other professions? I recall seeing something about doctors&#x2F;lawyers.<p>I know (distantly) some folks in the medical profession and it sounds way worse than what we go through. Not trying to diminish the real stress that we go through in this industry. Wondering if we can learn something from other industries in a similar (or indeed more difficult) position.
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jpcookie7 months ago
You know what? If you don&#x27;t like your job I&#x27;ll take it. Seriously that&#x27;s what I wanted to do since I was a teenager. Now I spend my time counting other people&#x27;s money. That&#x27;s an even worse life.
bdndndndbve7 months ago
Anyone in any profession can have burnout. Set money aside, set boundaries, have a life outside of work. It&#x27;s not exclusive to computer programmers, and there&#x27;s lots of worse burnout-inducing jobs that pay less.
david-gpu7 months ago
Good luck. Burnout drains your soul. It gets better, but it takes time. Exercising outdoors helps, even if it is just taking long walks.
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dougb57 months ago
&gt; &quot;You don’t care about the goal to begin with&quot;<p>This seems key. Are there options in your area for work with goals you do care about?
Arainach7 months ago
Burnout is awful, but this post seems preachy and out of touch.<p>&gt;It’s hard to explain to people who aren’t programmers just how soul-destroying it is to work for someone else in this industry. Maddeningly hard, in fact. Your profession involves hard mental work. You work at the limit of your creative, analytical and problem-solving abilities. You think and read outside of sessions to improve your craft. You bring your entire self to the task of healing someone’s trauma, figuring out what’s holding them back, or whatever. Now imagine it was all completely pointless.<p>What part of this doesn&#x27;t apply to every other discipline? Plenty of people feel that everything they do is pointless. Plenty of people spend their entire mental effort at work.<p>The Hacker News crowd has a higher than average fraction of people who think they have to never turn off and always be doing computer science work even when not at work. That correlates strongly with burnout, but that&#x27;s not a programming thing, that&#x27;s a personality type. Go outside and get some fresh air. Every day. Stop staring at screens 24&#x2F;7. That can&#x27;t entirely prevent burnout but it helps a lot.
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kaffekaka7 months ago
It seems to me that many people dislike their software developer job not because they don&#x27;t like programming but because the programming they get to do at work is not like the ideal world of an interesting hobby project where you alone decide scope, stack, deadline etc.<p>Meetings can suck. Design by committee. Scope creap. Crunch time. Lack of respect. Constant distractions. All this sucks but is part of many jobs, many workplaces. Expecting work to feel like a hobby is admirable but sets you up for some disappointments.<p>I see my job not as the programming part, but the part of making myself and my team experience the hobby project state as much as possible, against all odds. The job <i>is</i> the struggle.<p>Edit: I realize I might come off as insensitive. Burnout is a real thing. However at most jobs that sweet hobby project feeling is basically unattainable. I try to manage my energy so that I have some left after work to do stuff purely for my own enjoyment. I still enjoy my office job more than a I would a similar job outside tech
Bobaso7 months ago
find a meaningfull programming job. Here are quite a few on, but it&#x27;s not the highest paying job.
nonameiguess7 months ago
I try to keep perspective, anyway.<p>My first real job while living away from my parents was being a performer at Disneyland. It was actually fun as fuck, but they scaled back the entertainment department after 9&#x2F;11, laid off a bunch of people, and that included me. In a relatively low-paying job with no savings, I couldn&#x27;t make rent and had to live out of my car for a month and rely completely on the kindness and generosity of others to get back on my feet.<p>Right after college, I managed a bar for a while. Again, very fun, but it&#x27;s hard not to drink too much, especially when very young and very stupid. I woke up one morning blacked out with a dent in my car and still have no idea what happened. I got to witness women I hired being pressured into shooting for a swimsuit calendar I could tell they didn&#x27;t want to do. Rich kid assholes utterly ruin people&#x27;s lives out of pure spite. The owner made me fire a woman for theft when I knew she was innocent.<p>I eventually joined the Army. Again, quite a bit of fun charging around on top of tanks, firing a .50 caliber machine gun and standing on top of a cannon, in a vehicle that can go right through 6-foot diameter trees like they aren&#x27;t even there. But my buddy&#x27;s gunner got hit by a rocket and he had to spend two days cleaning barely differentiated guts off of everything in the conex. Guy in my platoon shot himself on the last day of deployment because his wife was leaving him and he didn&#x27;t want to go home. I was in the last unit to leave Iraq, and seeing what happened after, and then adding Afghanistan on top of that. Man, if you feel like you suffered for nothing, this was just next level &#x27;what the fuck did we do all this for?&#x27; 20-hour shifts with 30 minutes of sleep a night if you got lucky. Zero days off for months on end. Marriages ruined left and right. I even got my own thankfully amicable, no kids at least divorce out of it.<p>I ended up with pretty horrible chronic spine problems that led to multiple interbody fusions, a whole lot of titanium hardware, and years being barely able to walk, often in enough pain that my entire personality palpably changed and I felt powerless to stop it. When the Army tried to treat me, they put me in traction to the point that it herniated worse, I passed out on the machine, and fell so hard onto the hospital floor that I got a TBI bad enough that I wasn&#x27;t allowed to drive for two months until I could prove I was able to stand straight and touch my hand to a moving pencil. I went back to my hometown and totally forgot entire people existed who had apparently been huge parts of my life. I have no idea how many memory holes I have as I continually discover them talking to my family. Got 0% from the VA for that one.<p>I&#x27;m not here for the pain Olympics or anything and don&#x27;t want to downplay the struggles of others, but being in software is the cushiest, easiest shit I could ever have imagined. I&#x27;m paid more than I ever would have thought possible without running my own business or being a surgeon when I was a kid. I work from home with all the free time in the world but still travel enough that I&#x27;m not just sitting in the same room every day forever. I very rarely work more than a 40 hour week or 8 hour day. The vast majority of what I work on goes nowhere and ends up abandoned or canceled, but every now and then, something makes it to fruition and I get to see it used and feel legitimate pride knowing I made it happen. People nominally above me in an org chart are deferent, polite, constantly asking if they can do anything for me. People just believe me when I say something.<p>Contrast this with the Army where it&#x27;s legal, in-line with normal culture, and all but expected that bosses will publicly humiliate you, yell at you in front of your coworkers, you&#x27;re constantly under a spotlight, stack ranked annually against your entire battalion by people who don&#x27;t even know you. You&#x27;ll get fired if you can&#x27;t run fast enough or get fat. I got yelled at and censured once for not returning a call from my commander within five minutes when I was mowing my damn lawn and didn&#x27;t hear the phone ring. You have literally no time off, whether or not you&#x27;re home or out of town. Continuous mandatory recall. I was called in to bail guys out of prison at 3 AM on a Sunday morning. You rotate through 24-hour shifts called &quot;staff duty&quot; once a month because someone has to always be present in the headquarters. You don&#x27;t get a day off the next day.<p>Software developers have absolutely no appreciation of how good they have it.