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Ibis: Federated Wikipedia alternative

209 pointsby mostcallmeyt7 months ago

33 comments

mzajc7 months ago
This points out several valid issues with Wikipedia, but does not explain how the replacement addresses them.<p>Centralized moderation, for instance, is replaced by moderating every instance separately. But doesn&#x27;t that simply shift the problem? The largest instance(s) can still moderate maliciously, while the rest are insignificant.<p>Also, are there any plans to import existing articles from Wikipedia? I find it hard to imagine an alternative gaining traction by disregarding decades of edits on Wikipedia itself.
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exitb7 months ago
I get the concerns towards Wikipedia governance, but this feels almost like slacktivism. It’s been done numerous times, to slap ActivityPub onto a communication mode and call it a „federated foobar alternative”. It never works, it always fails to gain meaningful adoption. The federated hosts end up in disputes between themselves and their users. It’s mostly a miserable experience.<p>There needs to be another way to increase accountability for critical online services.
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woodruffw7 months ago
I don&#x27;t have any particular trust (or distrust) in Wikipedia as an institution, but this seems to be putting the cart before the horse: is there a reason to believe that a federated wiki would be <i>more</i> accountable, rather than less?<p>(This isn&#x27;t meant to be a jab; I like federated stuff. But I&#x27;m also not sure the order of operations is right here.)
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fny7 months ago
Social problems demand social solutions.<p>If you&#x27;re skeptical about Wikipedia, you can easily create your own fork of Wikipedia: the data and code is open source after all. In the end, it’s all about whether you can keep a community alive and kicking. No one gives a damn about whether a wiki is built on ActivityPub.<p>There are many examples: Larry Sanger, who was mentioned in the article, created Citizendium after breaking from Wikipedia.[0] He was then involved with Everipedia, a for-profit venture built the original code base which later morphed into crypto nonsense.[1]<p>There are many examples of other wikis too. Some are focused[2][3], some are fun[4][5], some are revisionist[6][7][8], and some meet the requirements of totalitarian regimes[9][10].<p>If Wikipedia’s not your style, grab the code, rally a crowd, and make the encyclopedia you want to see—just know it’s the people, not the platform, that make it thrive.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;Main_Page" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;Main_Page</a><p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rosettacode.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rosettacode.org&#x2F;</a><p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;citizendium.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;citizendium.org&#x2F;</a><p>[3]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;iq.wiki&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;iq.wiki&#x2F;</a><p>[4]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;uncyclopedia.com&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Main_Page" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;uncyclopedia.com&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Main_Page</a><p>[5]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edramatica.com&#x2F;Main_Page" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edramatica.com&#x2F;Main_Page</a><p>[6]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.metapedia.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.metapedia.org&#x2F;</a><p>[7]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.conservapedia.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.conservapedia.com&#x2F;</a><p>[8]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;infogalactic.com&#x2F;info&#x2F;Main_Page" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;infogalactic.com&#x2F;info&#x2F;Main_Page</a><p>[9]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.qiuwenbaike.cn" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.qiuwenbaike.cn</a><p>[10]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ruwiki.ru" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ruwiki.ru</a>
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richardw7 months ago
If the top &quot;scandals&quot; in the article are considered reasons to change, just wait until the alt-crew get a hold of wikipedia. Medical, political, science, education, religion discussions would all be even more crazy when people can point to some wiki gospel as proof. We&#x27;d find the list of scandals grows a thousandfold.<p>Wikipedia is amazing, if imperfect. Make it better, don&#x27;t try to break it by splintering it into some weird &quot;whatever you think is right&quot; solution. That&#x27;s already what we have in social media. Truth is already federated enough.<p>Edit: what would convince me more is some demonstration article&#x2F;cluster of articles and maybe some math proof that shows how this is better, through faster convergence on truth, defence against rando&#x27;s etc. I think even getting a definition of &quot;better&quot; would be a bit of a battle!
pona-a7 months ago
See previous discussion<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39694045">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39694045</a><p>163 points | 252 comments
SuperHeavy2567 months ago
[flagged]
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nightpool7 months ago
I have the same problem with this that I do with &quot;federated forums&quot; or &quot;federated forges&quot;—what does it even mean for an encyclopedia to be federated? In fact, they already are—if I want to go look up information about Minecraft, I can use the federated internet to go to minecraft.wiki.<p>So what are these new &quot;federation&quot; features actually giving us? Is it just OpenID login reinvented?
somat7 months ago
I don&#x27;t intend to be mean but isn&#x27;t the federated wikipedia, the web.<p>Wikipedias whole value function, don&#x27;t get me wrong it&#x27;s a great value function, is that it is a curated centralized web.
ErrantX7 months ago
As with all Wikipedia competitors, this misses two key points<p>Firstly the most critical part of competing with WP is not the technology, it&#x27;s having the critical mass of people willing to write article. Scandals aside over decades hundreds of thousands of people have built out the content and continue to do so - that is not easy to emulate.<p>Also for all the scandals, the toughest problems in WP early days were spammers and trolls. Moderation is a niche community problem (which till you have a community is moot). Stopping bot armies and countless trolls is a day 1 issue.
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nobodywillobsrv7 months ago
The problem with wikipedia is capture. How does this solve issues like with the recent scandal involving the article on grooming gangs in the UK?<p>Wikipedia and anything that replaced it will simply be a target for aggressive activists.
jll297 months ago
It&#x27;s legitimate to create alternatives to anything, and to re-think what has been done already.<p>One thing that would be on my personal wish list for any Wikipedia alternative is ease of machine processing: the MediaWiki format&#x2F;mark-up and the templates are horribly inconsistent and a nightmare to parse. This should be done better by any serious successor. Wikipedia has got the excuse &quot;historically grown&quot;, any successor doesn&#x27;t.
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zozbot2347 months ago
&gt; This means the same topic can be treated in completely different ways. For example geology.wiki&#x2F;article&#x2F;Mountain may be completely different different from poetry.wiki&#x2F;article&#x2F;Mountain.<p>Doesn&#x27;t MediaWiki (and other common wikis) support this kind of thing already via the InterWiki-links system? You can set up a MediaWiki install such that [[geology:Mountain]] and [[poetry:Mountain]] go to the appropriate places. What does Ibis add that&#x27;s not accounted for by this?<p>Besides, these days you also have <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wikidata.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Q8502" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wikidata.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Q8502</a> - which includes links to the concept of &quot;mountain&quot; as represented in hundreds of sites. (You can use a browser-extension known as Entity-Explosion to make your browser aware of these links, giving you the ability to browse from any of the listed sites to any other with just a few clicks.)
kemayo7 months ago
It&#x27;d be more convincing if the &quot;problems with Wikipedia&quot; section referenced anything from the last decade. (Also, one of the three things that apparently warranted being called out as an example was pretty petty -- the ArbCom member&#x27;s on-wiki job didn&#x27;t have anything to do with how they misrepresented their credentials.)
openrisk7 months ago
Some sort of federation has already been discussed in the Wikimedia universe [1]. It aims to operate at a lower level, federating <i>structured</i> data between different specialized wikibases [2]. AFAIK it has not (yet?) seen much development and&#x2F;or traction.<p>ActivityPub style federation opens up some interesting technical possibilities for exchanging data but if the main motivation is to &quot;fix&quot; the consensus&#x2F;moderation processes of Wikipedia one should start with outlining how <i>that</i> would work.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mediawiki.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikibase&#x2F;Federation" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mediawiki.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikibase&#x2F;Federation</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wikiba.se&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wikiba.se&#x2F;</a>
schoen7 months ago
It&#x27;s super-cool to see an alternative approach to dealing with Wikipedia content disputes.<p>In the past, when there have been Wikipedia forks, they haven&#x27;t generally tried to stay in sync with Wikipedia, at least not in both directions. Do we have an example of long-term forks of collaborative software or text editing projects that did manage to keep sharing productively in multiple directions? Maybe the BSDs to some extent?<p>I wonder how much work people are willing to do to keep actively collaborating with people whom they have big ongoing disagreements with (at least in areas where those disagreements don&#x27;t have an impact). Or can such collaboration be made relatively seamless with appropriate tooling?
0xDEAFBEAD7 months ago
I believe this effort is well-intentioned.<p>But, if it is successful, I suspect it will drag us farther towards a &quot;post-truth&quot; society, where every niche political view literally has its own encyclopedia by which it understands the world.<p>My take: Wikipedia&#x27;s problem is that it was not set up to moderate factual disputes or identify truth. See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tracingwoodgrains.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;reliable-sources-how-wikipedia-admin" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tracingwoodgrains.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;reliable-sources-how-wik...</a><p>What we need is something more like: a hybrid of Wikipedia as it exists now, and Community Notes. Try to build in some mechanisms to keep the forces of partisanship at bay.
linmob7 months ago
To me, looking at Ibis as a piece of software, it seems way more attractive as an alternative to wikia&#x2F;fandom, niche wikis about a topic.<p>It seems to be selfhostable without massive resources and more modern, than, e.g., MediaWiki. (Also, say about Lemmy what you want, but using it feels lean and quick.)<p>It&#x27;s especially attractive if the topic you are targetting also has some fediverse presence.
Levitating7 months ago
How ironic that the link to the mentioned article by Helen Buyniski &quot;Wikipedia: Rotten to the Core&quot; is the victim of link rot.<p>You can find the article reposted here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helenofdestroy.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;49-wikipedia-rotten-to-the-core?utm_source=publication-search" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helenofdestroy.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;49-wikipedia-rotten-to...</a>
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groceryheist7 months ago
This is the latest in a long line of attempts to make a non-centralized Wikipedia. A Wikipedia (not me) maintains a record<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;User%3AHaeB%2FTimeline_of_distributed_Wikipedia_proposals?wprov=sfla1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;User%3AHaeB%2FTimeline_of_dist...</a>
qwerty4561277 months ago
Sounds great. I want an openly opinionated wikipedia where a supposed fact is acknowledged as known to possibly exist even when the source is not known (but this should be indicated), where it is Ok to mention an opinion (also labelled) and where nobody deletes &quot;unimportant&quot; pages&#x2F;facts others write.
rapnie7 months ago
Federated Wiki by Ward Cunningham deserves a mention here:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;fed.wiki.org&#x2F;view&#x2F;welcome-visitors&#x2F;view&#x2F;about-federated-wiki" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;fed.wiki.org&#x2F;view&#x2F;welcome-visitors&#x2F;view&#x2F;about-federat...</a>
foxhop7 months ago
If the maintainers are reading this is cool. I would start with an exporter&#x2F;importer for pages from Wikipedia format into whatever format you use, it should also deal with the media. This is no small task but what you need.
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sureglymop7 months ago
ActivityPub federation, while maybe a little complicated, seems to be well thought through.<p>I think many platforms would benefit from implementing that. Especially git forges, though I think <i>someone</i> is already working on that.
hiAndrewQuinn7 months ago
This alternative doesn&#x27;t load with NoScript on, so I think I&#x27;ll pass.
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iterance7 months ago
Federation of a wiki is... well, it&#x27;s a bit strange, isn&#x27;t it? Imagine if only one library at a time held a copy of a given book you need, and the only way to access that book was via an inter-library loan via library partnerships, or by visiting the library that has the book. This is assuredly the situation many academics are in for key reference texts, but it is not what I&#x27;d call ideal. It is in fact very fragile at times. There is a book I need right now, for example, but if I want to read it I will have to drive to see it... The library that has it won&#x27;t send it for ILL. In a physical sense they &quot;declined to federate.&quot;<p>The difference between a wiki and a social media network is that anyone can spin up a template social media site; the fundamental <i>user-side</i> barrier to entry is pretty small. The same is not true of wikis - at least not high quality ones. Documentary standards, tone, quality, reviewership, consistency, policy, moderation, accountability, leadership, thoroughness, these are all qualities that take time and commitment to develop. They are hallmarks of centralization for a reason: arguably the innovation of human governance is centered around qualities like these. They take a long time to develop.<p>As a counterpart to Wikipedia, well... fragmentation is often a death knell for efficient knowledge transfer. We are already losing massive swathes of our early Internet history due to fragmentation, attrition, and destruction. The thought that any piece of knowledge stored in a safehouse could go offline at once, without replication or warning, it scares me a bit. The thought that we don&#x27;t really know who we&#x27;re trusting as stewards of human knowledge in a federated model disturbs me too. You can have your issues with Wikipedia but at least you know who they are. You know their biases.<p>That&#x27;s not to say there aren&#x27;t use cases for this... but man, this seems like an easy way to lose or destroy important parts of our shared history on accident.
paulnpace7 months ago
I hope it attracts more developers and I look forward to seeing it evolve!
shortformblog7 months ago
Citing a litany of stuff that happened as far back as 15 years ago and raised alarm bells way back when is a sign that the governance model of Wikimedia works, not that it’s broken. Governance is not about bad things happening; it’s about having set practices in place to manage the organization, including having ground rules when things go wrong.<p>That this project tries selling these warmed-over scandals as basic reasons for its existence shows that it’s not serious.<p>Every online collective eventually fosters corruption. The difference between this group and Wikimedia is that you know what you’re dealing with when it comes to Wikimedia.<p>EDIT: Since the link is broken on the site, I will make the case that the cited “investigative journalist,” Helen Buyniski, is less than convincing, using her role to criticize Wikipedia’s stance on alternative medicine, just as an example: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20240521014407&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;helenofdestroy.com&#x2F;index.php&#x2F;exposing-wikipedia&#x2F;49-wikipedia-rotten-to-the-core" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20240521014407&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;helenofdes...</a><p>Citing an apparent conspiracy theorist does not a convincing case make.
highwayman477 months ago
What does this term “federated” being thrown around in tech lately mean?
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lemiffe7 months ago
Ibis is a hotel chain, not the best name to pick in my opinion
anthk7 months ago
The only wiki I like it&#x27;s the rational wiki.
Log_out_7 months ago
The hotel chain has a wiki?
blackeyeblitzar7 months ago
How does this overcome power struggles and bias? That’s the most important question for me, as bias in Wikipedia is rampant these days, and even acknowledged by its founder.