The market has changed a lot since this classic blogpost[1] on salary negotiation was written. With no specific numbers to back it up, it feels like demand for generalists SWE has decreased, while supply has increased by a lot.<p>In this market where every company out there tries to minimise costs, is there still room for salary negotiation for generalists that interview with non-FAANG? Do you have any industry insights or anecdotes to share?<p>[1] <a href="https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/" rel="nofollow">https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/</a>
Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff.<p>But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to match their former employer, rather than just ask for more money to cover the difference) or they’ll make demands for things we already offer if they had just paid attention and read the benefits packet we emailed them, and it takes a bunch of back and forth to figure out what they’re asking for (nothing, in the end). Or they’ll ask for weird PTO accrual and cash out schemes that just leaves us asking “why didn’t you just ask for more cash and more PTO up front because now HR is pulling people into meetings to try and figure out this demand”.<p>People need more than knowing to negotiate, they need to know how to negotiate, and that means partially knowing what is negotiable. (We’ll change a lot actually in negotiations, but not everything)
It's long for today's attention, but negotiation guides are fairly consistent maps of a territory. They teach you it is a way to relate and a perspective to start from. It's a way to protagonize yourself instead of competing to debase yourself more than the next person.<p>Focus on a high quality agreement and a process that feels good independent of the numbers and you will be happy with the result. My confidence comes from knowing I challenge myself to do hard things, can work effectively while relying on others to scale effort, and that I am a peer in high performance environments.<p>There's a shorter guide that comes from Pfeffer, which is the triad of Performance, Credentials, and Relationships, where each org weights these differently, and the people whose weighted score is highest will prevail. Know the weights in the place you're considering, and know how you rank in those areas. Use that as confidence to engage in a mutual process of discovery, where you are working together to find the best quality agreement possible. Maybe the best one you find is not what you're looking for, but by agreeing to work together to find the best possible outcome, you're already negotiating.
The most important part of negotiation: Having an offer in the first place.<p>Unfortunately, I and a dozen other software devs (all of whom I know personally, and all of whom are amazing) are not getting <i>any</i> interviews, much less offers.<p>None of us have ever experienced a drought like this before, either. So... ???<p>Thankfully, we're all still currently employed.
Just today a recruiter called me and told me about a job that I think could be a good fit for me, and I do intend to interview for that.<p>I hate negotiations. So I'll be frank. I was already frank with the recruiter today: I love my current job, on Mondays I can't wait to get to work. Moving to another company entails risk. I need to be compensated for that risk, so I don't intend to even interview if they can't offer me at least a 20% raise. Many think that this becomes the ceiling rather than the floor. But if I get the offer, I'll simply tell the guys that I am an honest person, and I don't play games, and I would appreciate them not playing games either. More precisely, I tell them that I am not interviewing with them in order to get leverage for a raise at my current job (lots of people do that). But, if my current company will make me a counteroffer, I will accept it and I stop there. I do not want to be the subject of a bidding war ( * ). In other words, they have only one opportunity to make an offer. The should think twice about making a low-ball offer.<p>That's it. That's my non-negotiation tactic.<p>( * ) Why not let people bid on your compensation? Because word leaks out. The new colleagues at the new company will think "who does this guy think he is?". I need to work with these guys, and I don't want to start from this position. The colleagues at the old company will think "what a prima donna". Plus, I think it's a better position from a game theory point of view, a-la Thomas Shelling. I did not study game theory, so I have no idea if this is true, but it's not impossible. More importantly, I just find the idea quite distateful. Other people might find it flattering, but to me it's just gross.
I usually did this in the past, and it has worked every time so far (four times). Not in the US, this from Switzerland.<p>I think of a number I want to earn in the new job. For example, if I would currently make 100k, I say I currently make 115k in my current role, and then they offer 120k. I accept, done.<p>I did this after a bad experience. Made-up numbers. They offer me 80k, I already make 90k, I say I already make more. They ask how much, I say 90k, they say we can match that and one more week of vacations. I give them a pass, they ask why, I say I got another offer for 110k, they say we could have given you 110k too.<p>If they are allowed to lie, I can too.
Clickable link for the lazy <a href="https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/" rel="nofollow">https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/</a>
I am a generalist. Not once in my twenty years of experience have I met anyone like me. I can write firmware just as well as I can design and implement UX and UI. Heck, I can design circuits or even products in fusion 360. Where are all these so called generalists? If you mean “fullstack”, that is only a small fraction of software, and the bar has lowered a lot since JavaScript has become ubiquitous (so you only need to know TS/JS to call yourself fullstack…I don’t think you need to include even something like SQL).<p>As such, demand for me is so high that I’ve simply retired from all the money that was thrown at me (it’s also pretty easy for me to start my own business…although exiting is another story). I have no LinkedIn or other online presence and I still get headhunted despite having no interest.<p>Just remember your BATNA when you enter a negotiation.
I think the overall thrust of the article — "always try to negotiate, try to get better at it, it's low-downside and high upside" — is still very relevant and I frequently share it with friends interviewing even today.<p>Some specific things haven't aged well from this article in my recent experience:<p>1. Many companies have comp bands advertised and enforced by local law, and even outside of this many have implemented more regimented/structured comp in an attempt to reduce bias.
2. Relatedly I've seen more companies take a "no negotiation" policy, especially for more junior roles.
3. The market overall is much more an employer's market and is not growing as quickly, so the median SWE has less leverage.<p>I think the biggest impact of these changes is that the cost of not negotiating has become lower, and consequently the upside to negotiation is less, especially if you don't have competing offers or are more junior.<p>That said: competing offers is still the single most effective negotiation tool, as others have said. I've seen companies be relatively inflexible on cash comp but highly flexible on equity comp, which tends to not be required as part of job listing bands, and becomes the lion's share of comp as you get more senior. And often there are carve-outs of matching offers.<p>TL;DR: Still worth a read, but many of the specifics need discounting.
If you make it to an offer, it probably means you are the best of the lot. You can always negotiate somewhat. Unless your ask is outlandish, they can always say "no, but the offer stands". If you ask for 10x what youre offered / marker, that's different of course.
I can confirm - in the past three weeks, I requested a $5K raise in salary on offer and it was accepted in <20 seconds by hiring manager. This has a roughly $100K NPV. This is identical to the predictions in patio11's original piece.
I'd like to suggest an alternate method that worked for me. I only applied to jobs that 1) I thought I'd enjoy greatly, and that 2) I felt my skills could benefit the employer more than most other applicants. Generally I didn't get fantastic salary jumps but I chose jobs in good companies that didn't cause me too much stress. This let me be a better team player.<p>Over time it meant that I could study for my next job at night while still having a good work experience. I am paranoid so I always worked close enough to the job that I could bike there if necessary, and I saved money for a rainy day. I even chose to avoid Silicon Valley because I didn't like the ultracompetitive vibe.<p>I ended up with a big payout from one job that started on the path to my own long-term business, but all along the work/life balance was excellent.<p>I'm sure I could have negotiated higher but programmers tend to make good money anyhow. Never bothered me when I made $90K but it could have been $105K or whatever.
Leverage is also about timing your market which is a matter of local and overall trends. You can use google trends to figure out when the global market trend is in your favor: <a href="https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=ask%20for%20more%20salary&hl=en" rel="nofollow">https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=a...</a><p>Get a sense for how your industry is doing as well. Your best leverage is a competing offer.
I have negotiated every SWE offer I’ve had. It doesn’t “feel” good, but it’s helpful to know virtually all roles have wiggle room.<p>The truth is engineers are still being hired and it costs money (and time/money) to interview more people or continue interviewing people in the pipeline, so offering more to a good candidate is worth it for most companies.
> In this market where every company out there tries to minimise costs<p>That was always true. Guide reminds you that significant amount of money for you is a rounding error for most of companies, so negotiating is always a good idea.<p>Observations:<p>- posted salary ranges are BS. Companies are as likely to go significantly over the upper limit as to refuse to entertain anything remotely close to upper bound even with the most amazing of candidates. You won't know until you negotiate.<p>- vc backed companies are supposed to grow fast, not balance budget. if you can convince them you will help with that growth more than the next guy many limits become very negotiable<p>- some companies have fixed / very narrow ranges for roles except the most senior ones. usually they are significantly below market rates. if they straight up refuse to budge don't waste your time - same mechanism is going to manage your future salary increases
There is always room. If a company makes you an offer it means thyley want to hire you over every other candidates so far and their first offer is unlikely to be the best they can do.
Here is one top tip from the Chris Voss book: Don't ask for a round number. If you ask for a more precise number it sounds like you have done more research etc.<p>EG Not: "I've looked at my finances and similar roles, and I need $130,000 for me to take the role."<p>Instead: "I've looked at my finances and similar roles, and I need $133,700 for me to take the role."