A Dust Over India

The mistake the author made is that he lived in India for three weeks. Had he stayed for six months or a year, he'd have been able to figure out <i>what</i> makes India tick - India is the very embodiment of clever innovation to survive - it will ask you very tough questions and it will compel you to innovate, often rapidly, just in order to survive - not even succeed. This, in India, is known as "jugaad".<p>He missed the "jugaad" all around him - people, in their struggle for survival, do all sorts of things. Lying is jugaad, dishonesty is jugaad, the Cobra is jugaad, the marijuana in tourist places is jugaad, the beggar's strategic location is jugaad, the dump-heap is jugaad (not all jugaads are meant to make society better as a whole).<p>But maybe that's too naive. The most unfortunate in India are amongst the most fatalistic - they give up trying - after all, they never won the birth lottery by being born in Europe or the US, or even in a rich home in India - so why hope for social justice? Laws are meant to be broken in India, justice is meant not to be served (India is a study in legal arbitrage - it always has been). Life is meant to be tough in India, values are meant to eschewed. But even with all this, "jugaad" survives and serves its own brand of justice. The mistake most foreigners make in India is that they continue to believe in their ability to right the wrongs and make a change. A feeling of utter helplessness is very alien to them. It's coming to terms with that helplessness and digging out pockets of jugaad from that black mass of helplessness is what makes India tick.

People should be aware that this:<p><i>He said Indians will rarely, if ever, resort to violence. As a foreigner, you never have to worry about being robbed, or having a knife pulled on you, or getting beaten up by a gang of thugs and having your kidney carved out of you. And this is true.</i><p>Is not true.<p>It would possibly be true if he changed it to read "As a foreign <i>man</i>.."<p>A female friend of mine just returned from six weeks in India a few weeks ago. I'm fairly certain that if Sanjay had met her, travelling alone as OP was, he would've told a very different story. He would've said, as my friend heard from Indians over and over, "Leave. Now. Get on a plane and go back to the U.S. You are not safe here."<p>She was lucky, and only suffered gropings, attempted kidnapping, and attempted break-ins to her hotel room. But violence against foreign women is on the rise in India. The U.S. Bureau of Consolate Affairs cautions women not to travel to India alone[1]. And "alone" in this case means "in a party without men".<p>Of course, none of this would be visible to you as a foreign man... you just get treated completely differently. But it's dangerous to spread the idea that women can just go to India and "not have to worry" about violence.<p>[1] <a href="http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1139.html" rel="nofollow">http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1139.html</a>

<i>I watched the endless poverty scroll by like a demented video game. I had an overwhelming urge to stop at an ATM and withdraw 25,000 Rupees and start handing money out to people at random.</i><p>"Nothing should be given free. Anything that is given free has no value. " - Padma Venkataraman<p>In May of this year, I spent time in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.<p>The exchange rate during my travels was roughly 53 Rupees : 1 US Dollar. So I can definitely understand how tempting it can be to "do the math" and rationalize that giving X Rupees to random person will "help". But it's absolutely not a sustainable solution to the core and underlying problem, and might even be perpetuating it.<p>I <i>"get"</i> the concept of <i>jugaad</i>. My small solution was to not give Rupees away, but to tip well: anybody who seemed to be working on improving their economic situation. (Tipping is not normal practice for most Indians, but I figured it was better than handouts.)<p>This video can be hard to watch, but it's an interesting film about an organization called Rising Star Outreach ( <a href="http://www.risingstaroutreach.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.risingstaroutreach.org</a> ) that is working on helping of the "worst" of India's beggars, those who afflicted with Hansen's Disease (AKA Leprosy) <a href="http://byutv.org/watch/d0f942b2-6b4f-4923-9f88-7ad8fde4a01c" rel="nofollow">http://byutv.org/watch/d0f942b2-6b4f-4923-9f88-7ad8fde4a01c</a><p>Some interesting tidbits from the video:<p>- "70 percent of the world's leprosy is in India."<p>- "People with leprosy are treated as untouchables ... Every month, people from the leprosy colony travel to the city to beg. Once they have enough money to buy food and clothing for the month, they go back to the colony."<p>- "Begging reduces people to their lowest level. The worse you look, the better you're going to be successful at begging."<p>But the video has a somewhat happy ending: it is demonstrating a work in progress, and general proof that giving people a way to sustain themselves economically via microloans really does work.<p>As far as the general population goes, India is an amazing country: resourceful, intelligent. But its biggest challenge will be its ability to cope with population growth.

I am an Indian and I find this piece quite authentic. However, the OP and most of the other foreigners who visit India, visit places or deal with people that are known to be hostile.<p>I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown Detroit. Heck, there are more chances of getting mugged or shot in such ghetto. However, I will not visit such places as they are known to be hostile.<p>India is a weird place and to survive you need to live as Indians live. Some insights -<p>a) Yes, we have highest number of beggars. But most of them are cheats. Most of them will walk away if you offer them a job instead of money or food. Also, a lot of them work for beggar mafias.<p>b) They say that all of those 33 crore Hindu Gods, Buddha and Allah have left India ages ago. Religions are more customary than spiritual and Indians follow 'em just for the sake of customs. It's a common sight to see a young guy driving by a temple reciting a few shlokas while driving and offer a customary mini version of prayer.<p>People who come to India on a spiritual tour make me laugh. If you think that you can attain enlightenment or get more spiritual by travelling thousands of miles and spending a couple of weeks at a 500$/night resort near Haridwar, then you need some serious help.<p>c) Tourists buy "Indian" stuff that no Indian buys. The clutches or carpets or the wooden elephants are made specially for foreign tourists and are freakingly overpriced. The best way to buy Indian stuff, would be to go to regular markets with a local friend.<p>d) Garbage is a big problem. Its in our nature to litter. Take an Indian to US or Australia and he will not spit or litter. While the same person might even pee on a street back in India. The only option is to live/stay in relatively cleaner localities.<p>e) Drivers, hotel staff, guides, store keepers and public servants are dishonest because they are virtually unaccountable to anyone and the legal system ain't efficient enough to nab the dishonest. A "x" star restaurant can continue to function despite serving cockroaches or hair strands in their dishes. Apparently, identifying the trait of dishonesty is easier if you know the local lingo/culture.<p>People know a lot of about American culture because of Hollywood and American sitcoms. I am not an expert in American culture, but I can identify whether a person is playing me. I can not do that in any other country (say Italy).<p>Same logic applies to foreigners who visit India. You either need to know a few things about Indian culture beforehand or you need to spend some more time here.

This is a fairly honest unflinching piece. A visit to India can induce severe "Cognitive Dissonance" in the unprepared. There is obscene display of super affluence right next to shocking Poverty. I see this every single day -<p>A beggar &#38; her naked child begging at the window of an Audi R8.<p>The salesman in a high-end TV shop taking the bus to work.<p>The Marriot main-gate where super high priced cars drive out to be greeted by a forest of beggars.<p>Mumbai City simultaneously houses the most expensive residence in the world [1] and the largest slum in the world [2]<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_%28building%29" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_%28building%29</a> [2] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi</a><p>and so on and so on...<p>The leaders and the bureaucrats of the Govt. of India deserve to be shot in a public square for their sheer corruption and incompetence. They rob the country blind; feather their own nests and manage thru coercion to get elected (or posted to plum postings) over and over again.

Sorry about the long post. The post by the author stirred up a strong emotion from me.<p>The author is right. It's an extremely honest account of the state of chaos that is India. There has been a culture of dishonesty that has grown over the last few decades, because that is the only way many people can afford to live middle-class lifestyles.<p>If you take an auto-rickshaw or a taxi, the only thing that goes through the drivers head is, whether he can scam you for more money, and if so how. It's quite sad, because on one hand dishonesty is the norm, but on the other that's the only way he can feed his family, send his kids to school, take care of his ailing parents and drink away his miseries at night. The middle class ignore this because they know it's all a game with winners and losers (even if by pure chance). They would be better off trying to achieve a comfortable standard of living, than to try and reform India. But these people are often really honest, and as courteous as the average busy employee in nyc.<p>Then you see the rich folks who live in walled gardens (literally and figuratively). They have comfortable lives and are protected from the stark realities by security guards whose sole job is to prevent beggars from entering places where they live.<p>The police here do not have resources to work on most of the civil problems that happen here. On the plus side, they are less corrupt than what they were before, maybe because of the fear of irrelevancy. The politicians care more about the gold in their coffers, than to try and find ways to reform society.<p>The authors' account, it seems, came from a person who expected India to be a basket of spirituality, but was then struck in the groin by reality. It's all well and good. That is the real India, unfortunately. Not the Ashrams or the Taj hotels or the private resorts.<p>The situation is changing. The spending power of the middle class is increasing, along with the awareness that they are the ones who can and should start the change. The population needs to be decreased or the population densities should be more evenly spread. People living below the poverty line need to find some way to sustain themselves, and elevate themselves to a situation where they can think about tackling societal challenges. These are hard problems, and need capable minds to solve.

Reading this article reminds me a story from "The Great Indian Novel" by Shashi Tharoor that explains the present state of Indians -<p>"A man, ... a symbol, shall we say, of people of India -- is pursued by a tiger. He runs fast, but panting heart tells him he cannot run much longer. He sees a tree. Relief! He accelerates and gets to it in one last despairing stride. He climbs the tree. The tiger snarls below him, but he feels that he has at last escaped its snapping jaws. But no -- what's this? The branch on which he is sitting is weak, and bends dangerously. This is not all; wood-mice are gnawing away at it; before long they will eat through it and it will snap and fall. The branch sags down over a wall. Aha! Escape? Perhaps our hero can swim? But the well is dry, and there are snakes writhing and hissing on its bed. What is our hero to do? As the branch bends lower, he perceives a solitary blade of glass growing on the wall of the well.On the top of the blade of grass gleams a drop of honey. What action does our Puranic man, our quintessential Indian, take in this situation?<p>He bends with the branch, and licks up the honey. "<p>No matter how desperate the situation, Indians will always find a way to adjust, to live with it. So despite all the filth, over crowding, corruption, inefficiency, Indians have learnt how to live and enjoy.

Exaggerations abound. While I agree with aspects of poor governance and garbage accumulation and many other observations, I realized the author was out to represent a preconceived notion of a nation, when I read, "homeless people sleeping on the tarmac, the city is so crowded and disgusting that people decide they’d rather sleep on the airport runway."<p>I will pick on that lie to state my point. If you have been to any of the smaller metros in India, you generally get thru immigration at Mumbai before taking a flight from the domestic terminal. Getting to the domestic terminal from the international terminal is cumbersome. You are escorted in a bus operated by the Airport Authority of India, accompanied by security personel.<p>The aspect of the ride that is of interest is the route taken by the bus. The bus operated within the premises of the airport often running along side the tarmac and taxi way thru numerous and repeated security check-points while it meanders to or from the domestic terminal. This gives you the best view of the runways at ground level in slow speed often around 15 kmph and includes a section of the ride around the cargo terminals.<p>Most international airlines operate to and out of Mumbai during the night often after 12 AM. I have taken this ride on at least 3 occasions and have not seen a single individual sleeping on the tarmac on even one occasion.<p>What the author might be referring to could be the people you find in a semi sleep state around the terminal, more so near the cargo terminals. These are employees in the cargo section often on a break. The employees are usually uniformed and any one can observe the security batches hanging around their necks.<p>You would then have to assume that the intent of the author is intentional mis-representation and sensationalism. Take everything written with a large serving of salt.

I don't know how much truth there is in this from the foreigner's point of view, but a lot of us believe (me and a lot of my friends included) that a vast majority of tourists who come to India want to witness this very same upon coming here.<p>It also fits one of the many reasons why the density of foreigners is maximum in areas like Pahar Ganj and Old delhi (the dirtiest parts of Delhi IMO). So when some "gora" (typically white people) complains that Delhi is so dirty the biggest wtf going on in my head is.. then why the hell are you staying near Pahar ganj or traveling by a cycle rickshaw in 42 deg near Nai Sadak. The place near the Airport is cleaner than New York ( at least after the common wealth games) but nobody wants to see that. Who wants to come here all the way to see some old glass building in neat and clean surroundings. What's unique about that right?

<i>There was little else to do after nightfall in India but get drunk.</i> hmm... OK <a href="http://www.buzzintown.com/delhi/events/category--nightlife/id--1419.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.buzzintown.com/delhi/events/category--nightlife/i...</a> <a href="http://delhi.burrp.com/events/Film+and+Theatre#3" rel="nofollow">http://delhi.burrp.com/events/Film+and+Theatre#3</a><p><i>an Indian will lie to your face ... they’ll hand you fake business cards and offer to sell you something that they don’t actually have, so that you’ll voluntarily empty your wallet to them on your own accord.</i> As opposed to DecorMyEyes.. sure<p><i>A couple Indians stopped him on the street, and with perfect English convinced him they worked for a travel agency.</i> No shit. It's not like any Indian travel sites are listed on Nasdaq as MMYT right ?<p>Everyone of the problems has happened to me in various parts of South East Asia. India is not unique with these issues. With all due respect, I think the author had a "Gautama" experience. An experience of extreme helplessness when confronted with extreme poverty at a national scale. I completely empathize with him, but lets not get too hysterical with helplessness here.<p>It's hard to herd a billion people along... but we're trying.

I grew up in one of the biggest cities in India. If I was as good with words, this is exactly what I would write. Or maybe I wouldn't. The problem in discussing these issues with most Indians is that they quickly become defensive. Instead of acknowledging the facts (which is the fist step to finding a solution), the typical response you would receive is, "even in US there is poverty/crime/corruption... you are being hypocritical and should fuck off". I'm sure we will see a lot of it in this thread.

I double checked, and according to Wikipedia, he's right. The homicide rate is 3.2/100,000/year for the most recent year with data, compared to 5.0 for US. Although many countries do have lower rates, India is nowhere near the more violent South American and African countries, which are the worst.<p>There's so much more in this article to process, I don't think I'll post a reaction until I've had time to mull it over (at which point, this post will be dead, oh well). It did strike me that my cousin has been in India for the last few weeks, and hasn't mentioned the poverty once in her travel blog. I think I'll send this to her and see if she has anything to say.<p>Also, am I the only one that finds it weird that a piece with this level of nuance is on a site otherwise dedicated to dating advice for straight, cis men? The kind of advice that divides behaviors into 'needy' and 'not needy' and claims that your behavior will determine what kind of woman you end up with?

This brings to mind New York City's horse-manure health crisis in the late 1800's (even though that crisis wasn't directly comparable to this one). Back then, according to the New York Times, there were up to 200,000 horses living in the city, each one generating between up to 30 pounds of manure a day, for a total of up to 6 million pounds of fresh horseshit every day. It just piled up, attracting huge numbers of flies and posing a serious challenge to the city's Sanitation Department. The whole city reeked of it.[1]<p>[1] <a href="http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-posed-a-public-health-hazard/" rel="nofollow">http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-pos...</a>

It is hard to give a well rounded response to the post and yet keep it short. So I will not even try. A lot has been written about India, so people who want to know more will dig deep on their own, whereas many will be happy with <i>poverty porn</i>.<p>One thing that I do want to mention is that India is a very <i>high variance</i> country. For almost any statement one makes, there will be a un-ignorable part of the country where the statement is not true. To get a truer picture of India, always keep that in mind. A part of the variance is not only spatial but also temporal. Depending on the time you choose to travel, your impression of Mumbai's city train system can be poles apart.<p>In the post it was claimed that author felt safe in India. That automatically gave the author's gender away, especially given the names of the places he visited. India's capital and most of the north and western states (Gujarat excluded) are highly unsafe if you are a girl and alone. Even the locals will not venture out in the evening unaccompanied by the opposite sex. Sexual violence and molestation is a daily affair. It is even ethnically targeted. If you are a girl from the north-east, India's capital is not a friendly place.<p>On the other hand visit Chennai, Mumbai, Pune (by no means an exhaustive list) nobody will give it a second thought if an unattended girl has to travel in the wee hours of the night, even if wearing a mini fortune in jewelery.<p>Every so often in 7 years a north/west/central region of it will erupt in politically motivated inter-religion violence and riots of the worst kind. There would be thousands dead, injured, burned and raped (yeah, I am not making this up), but no one will get punished.<p>On the other hand states like Kerala, West Bengal havent had such violence ever since the creation of independent India. But measure them along the axis of economic growth, the latter will come up in very unflattering colors.<p>In certain regions of India, you will find bribes to be business as usual. In the south, (barring Karnataka) that is certainly not the norm. Sometimes the differences are so great that sometimes when you hear the stories from the other side you cannot help but wonder, "is it the same country !"<p>Some cities are poster-children of bad traffic, some are pretty decent compared to Indian average.<p>In some cities the form of the garbage disposal is that you throw it on the street, whereas in others you will have regular system that collects it off the dumpsters and empties it on the landfills. Furthermore it is not correlated with the perceived wealth of a city or town. Some of the poorer ones are cleaner and more organized.<p>Most of India is male-dominated and patriarchal whereas the north-eastern states are matriarchal. In many states it is still customary for the girl's family to pay huge amounts in dowry, and a matter of peer pride for the boy's family, whereas in many parts, (kerala, west bengal) dowry is frowned upon. It is not completely absent but when such a transaction does take place, it is sneaked in different ways and peer pressure works against it.<p>In the northern and western states girl child foeticide is rampant, not so in the other states.<p>Lastly: Corruption is practiced differently in India and US. In US there is this revolving door between corporations and the govt that legitimizes corruption, whereas in India it is closer to cash under the table. Not claiming that one is better or worse than the other, just making an observation about how it is practiced.

I have spent years in India, and it's one of my favorite places on Earth. One thing I quickly discovered is how much Western visitors like to (ab)use their experiences to misconstrue a sense of superiority. Such a sense would immediately disappear, IMO, should they make an effort to overcome their own ignorance of the place.<p>The piece reads almost like a self-conscious parody of this usual Western tirade against India.

I spent three weeks in India last year teaching in a slum school, and this is the most candid and accurate description of the country I've read yet. Well done. I think some people are afraid to really be honest at the risk of being politically incorrect, and I appreciate the author's honesty.<p>I had the same reaction the OP did when I saw so many living side-by-side with the impoverished - especially children - and being so callused. But the reality is that poverty is everywhere in India, and because it's a way of live, people simply adjust.<p>But it doesn't make it any less sad. It's sad to see full-grown, gaunt men struggling to pedal their rickshaw in flip-flops over washboard roads for pennies. But it's devastating seeing small children who are really, truly famished.<p>We would buy food for hungry children whenever we could, and often they would stare at us blankly at first. They'd accept the food, but would have no reaction. I figured they simply didn't appreciate it or couldn't muster a reaction.<p>But then I started watching them after we left. And after they realized they weren't being had - and we really were giving them food with no strings attached - they were transformed. I looked back at one begging child to see him absolutely gleeful, grinning from ear to ear. Another child who I gave some candy and bit of money ran after our departing rickshaw - while holding his 1 year old sister - waving, smiling and dancing with joy. It almost most made me cry.<p>But I didn't cry, not until the night before we left. After three weeks in India, I was ready to to leave. But at the same time, I felt almost guilty that I was able to return to such a country of prosperity and wealth while the children I'd taught would simply stay behind. And while my wife and I had worked our ass off for 2 weeks to improve the school, the curriculum and the educational prospects for the kids, ultimately our effort wasn't going to move the needle, and few if any would ever leave the slums. They had almost no shot at making a life for themselves. With all these emotions stirring in my mind, my wife held me as I cried.<p>If you're living in the U.S. or any Western country, you are incredibly blessed / lucky. Don't take it for granted. If you haven't been to India, it's a trip that will forever change your perspective. Before leaving for India, I simply lived in a home. But I returned with the knowledge that I live in a luxurious castle.

Hey guys, I work for Postmasculine and just wanted to jump in quickly. First, thanks for sharing this Arun2009. I've been reading HN daily for the last 9 months and love it. Amazing to open up my computer today and see us as the number one link. I believe my reaction was something like this: <a href="http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/excited5.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/excit...</a><p>Anyway, I mainly wanted to ask what people thought of the site apart from that article. Did you read anything else and did you like it or dislike it? If so, what articles did you read?<p>Thanks!

Discussion on r/india <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/nmnzf/how_accurately_does_this_blog_post_describe_india/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/nmnzf/how_accurately_...</a>

I have not read the article yet but I am saddened by the fact that the discussion , yet again,has become a US vs Them discussion. Getting mugged in Detroit does not justify any behavior here in India. Just because the US has poor people does not mean we can too.<p>The problem with Indians is we will say "I am proud to be a Indian" one moment and litter the next. We believe we are perfect thus do not work to achieve more. Yes as Individuals we would have done a lot for the country but we as a people need to be more patriotic and literally uplift the nation.

This is a very accurate portrayal of the hard parts of traveling as a backpacker in India. I'm not sure it's a totally accurate portrayal of India itself. I spent six months backpacking around India. A lot of what he said in the article resonated with me, especially eventually losing it about a few dollars with a taxi driver, hands shaking with anger over $4.<p>The thing the author doesn't mention is that being a traveler affects what you see and who you meet. There are places you go as a backpacker: Agra, Rajasthan, Bodhgaya, Goa, Bangalore and so on. And there are people there looking for you, expecting you, or at least someone like you. If you only speak to people who approach you, then you will meet a lot of dishonest people. Things tend to look pretty rough from the banana pancake store.<p>This is true in any poor country that gets a lot of wealthy tourists. Most of what he said was true in East Africa too. It's really true of anywhere you can get that damn banana pancake.<p>So, I don't disagree. It was spot on. But it's also possible that the 100% accurate description of what a backpacker sees in India is not an accurate description of India itself.<p>Also, I'm not advocating "getting off the beaten path" or trying to critique the "authenticity" of his "Indian experience". I hate that shit. But there is a bit of an Uncertainty Principle to backpacking. In my experience, you can't both travel a country cheaply and observe it objectively at the same time.

As an Indian, I'd like to put in a word about spirituality and "seeking" : getting trapped by the spiritual tourism hawkers is the worst way to go about it. Please do not just land up and ask, "So where is the latest and greatest ashram?". You'll probably get scammed, or worse, physically or mentally abused. Do not underestimate the charisma and level of brainwashing techniques that fake gurus are capable of. Even level-headed people can be made to "give up this wretched materiality" (i.e., write away their property to the ashram) after a few sessions of strange chemicals in your food, and some effective brainwashing / hypnotic sessions.<p>Before coming to India, please have an exact idea of the particular person / people (guru, gurus, enlightened people, etc;) you are going to meet, what you seek from them, etc; Please spend time researching the person you want to meet on the Internet, YouTube, etc; Please try to have Indian friends, or just register with someone who will check up on you regularly (ideally a local, or at least by phone) who can help as an emergency contact in case of any disaster (malaria, hypnotised by the scammer-guru, etc;).<p>It is a sad fact that this country has some gems of philosophers, but is equally filled with scammers and worse.<p>Lastly, a personal opinion : just read Jiddu Krishnamurthi and think for yourself, you don't need a harrowing India trip! :-)

Why is this being upvoted and still on the front page? In addition to being totally irrelevant to the site guidelines: the guy goes to India, visits all the tourist hotspots, and eats at Pizza Hut. While traveling. In India.<p>Without accepting or denying any of the observations he makes, and at the risk of sounding like I "lack perspective," I humbly offer that if you travel halfway around the world and still eat at an American chain restaurant, your judgment of foreign culture is irrelevant.

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to.<p>Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization.<p>Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of the year and without planning and infrastructure to enable it, there would be very little food available during the winter. In the US the infrastructure is a requirement for even moderate population growth.<p>The same applies to shelter. In India, a hut made of newspaper is adequate shelter year round. Try that in the Northern US and you'll freeze.<p>The result of this is that there are more poor people who do not rely as much on large scale planning and infrastructure for their basic survival.<p>Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government.<p>If you want to talk about rights for the poor, in India if someone isn't using land and you set up a tent on it and start living there, you can't be evicted. The shantytowns that the author found so disturbing are actually a side-effect of India's weak property rights laws, which themselves are a result of democratic pressure from the poor to continue living where their families have lived for generations. Contrast this to the genocide the US conducted against native Americans who were in the way.<p>Basic infrastructure (roads, sewers) is lacking in India, but those are not easy projects to bootstrap. Bangalore has a massive sewer construction project going on now.<p>Frankly, it's not all that bad. Sure the garbage smells bad, but it's mostly just a matter of learning not to keep inhaling after you catch a whiff of something rank on the breeze.<p>If you are concerned about India's political infrastructure, notice that India's rulers are forming alliances with the US to help thwart Pakistan's nuclear ambitions. Note that once the US has a stake in one ruling party it tends to do much to prop up and empower that party, even if there are horrible human rights consequences.<p>When I go to India I notice the energy. People sit happily beneath a dirty tarp in a roadside food stand, enjoying Manchurian Gobi... sometimes 4 or 5 people sharing one bowl of the delicious spicy food. Smiles everywhere. These are extremely poor people. Also I notice the tiny businesses, some retail locations are only a few square feet in size but sell a variety of goods and are staffed by a single motivated shopkeeper who works 18+ hour days.<p>India is full of hard working people and ingenuity. I found the author's generalizations about dishonesty, etc., quite offensive.<p>Consider how much effort is undertaken in the US to hide poverty from view. Sadly the US ends up putting a very large percentage of its poor population in prisons and has relocated many to horrific housing projects, where the violence and horrors are contained away from view.<p>Consider how much effort is undertaken in the US to present the appearance of legit, non-corrupt institutions. Yet fraud abounds at all levels of government. The stuff Wikileaks exposed about the US is nothing more than fraud, dishonesty, and corruption.

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When making judgements like this, it is good to remember that your experience of a place depends not only on that place, but even more so on your own state of mind. When you see confusion all around you, you should honestly ask yourself how much of it is coming from your side.

I once took my client who was visiting from US to a city tour of New Delhi. It was routine India Gate, Red Fort, Jantar Mantar stuff. She seemed unimpressed. But we happened to pass through a slum area and her eyes just lit up. She was shocked and amazed, but happy that her trip was now complete. It was disgusting.

As an Indian who has lived in North India for the entire 23 years of his existence, I can say that every single word that the author has reported is true, except one. It is not safe to roam about in wee hours not even for men. Except may be in Mumbai and a few more cities. I would advice any other visits against it.<p>Oh and people who have praised the word 'jugaad', in most cases it is a illegal-immoral solution. I hate it when people glorify the act. It is a reality and it is present everywhere in India - but I hope that we grow out of it.<p>You can divide the country into three parts: (A) The Powerful (who are always rich) (B) The not-so-rich and not-so-powerful (C) The poor and powerless. People of class (A) are leaders, businessmen and politicians who are also lawmakers. Class (B) is the middle to high income families who think political dialogue is a stinking business to be a part of. Class (C) is the overwhelming majority who vote and get paid for it - either directly or through improper political practices from caste/region/religion based arguments.<p>We have a huge population with few resources. We don't have enough fuel to dump our waste, not even enough ground to dump them on. We have very high unemployment and low literacy. Even the education system that we have is largely of very low quality. Cross Border Terrorism that is so not a daily part of western life is now too boring to be covered on Indian television. North India is so accustomed to it that people have even stopped demanding action - we don't think our government can take any. We also face Naxalism [1], a reality that a lot of us don't understand as it is largely based in Southern/Eastern India.<p>We regularly see large scale corruption ($1B+), as frequently as once every year. The culprits come back to power in a few years (An example: [2]). And people vote for them, because there is no better choice. This is unlike say USA when similar things would have been ends of political career for people involved.<p>BUT, please stop commenting on India as a comparison to the US and the rest of the western world. We get it, you have cleaner cities, healthier people, lesser discrimination and no unhappiness. We know it well, we live by it every day. These commentaries just seem unnecessary. We are innately handicapped in the race of development. We have started off late [3]. We have started off behind [4]. It is also very arrogant to impose your morality to the ancestors of others [5] as even if they may agree to what you say, they cannot comment on the situation in the previous era as they are unaware of the context themselves. It is very rude to use it as an argument against the present.<p>And let's make it clear. India is no more spiritual than any other country on earth. We just have a lot more temples and monasteries than most places. And they are also old and diverse. These exact things that attracts most westerners to India - the ancientness and the abundance, are also very closely related to what westerners hate about India. You cannot have orthodox, untainted and non-commercialized establishments without the perils of unorganized, corrupt and ill-managed institutes. Remove both, and you have a country that is working just as vigorously towards modern (and very western) ideologies and standards of living.<p><pre><code> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fodder_Scam [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Independence [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#Economic_impact [5] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214998 [Sec: Sati]</code></pre>

As they say: "travel to a place for a day, write a novel. Travel there for a month, write an essay. Travel there for a year, write nothing."<p>This post, while certainly an honest account, is rife with generalizations and does not acknowledge the author's own cultural biases in the slightest.

Let me summarize the problems of India in my very limited capacity. 1. India is a very very old civilization. Hence, there are way too many ideologies, religions, castes etc in the way of a focused progressive thinking. 2. India ceased to be offensive long back - history is very clear about what usually happens with a non-offensive civilization - they get captured, robbed, systematically destroyed. It took 600 years to rob India from Moghuls to the British. In this very long process of invasions and slavery, something very critical to human survival broke down completely. We Indians do not care of our own well-being. We are happy with getting away with minimal suffering. We just do not care. 3. As India spent most of the modern time in slavery, India became fatalist - none of our actions are relevant - finally the destiny/wish of God/karma takes over. So, we do not care about our actions. There is no causality. 4. Post independence from the British, India fell into the hands of a very corrupt political system. Please understand this, to survive in power the Governments in India need poor people. How can you govern and control 1.2 billion people? - by keeping them in abject poverty. This is a very simple mechanism (read Orwell's 1984) proven and tested the world over. 5. India has a class of enterpreneurial people. They make money for themselves and help their own. India has no sense of public distribution of wealth or enterpreneurship. An Indian will NOT help a man living in his own street if the other guy is from a different caste/religion/etc. 6. Poverty is the worst form of violence - but India has no plans to eradicate poverty. Politics is usually the tool for the rougue to make quick money and loads of it and as I mentioned earlier, poverty is necessary for the political class to survive. I have 100 other points - perhaps I will write a blog about it and share with you people. This article talks about something that hurts me a lot on personal level - trust me, every Indian has tried atleast once to change things around him. Most have failed. Even Gandhi failed miserably - he never got the India he dreamed of.

This is why I have trouble relating to my friends' problems.<p>Oh someone at work got a bigger raise than you? Excuse me while I laugh in your face.<p>I'm not too good at parties. I don't know how to compartmentalize.<p>It also bugs me that talking about this seems like a status move when it generates negative things in my life.

I am from India..Things that have been described is absolutely true.<p>But do you know one thing. The actual situation is worse. The beggars author is talking about actually represts only indian middle class!!.. yes they fall in the top 50% in economic ladder. If you want to see real poverty go to kalahandi or vidharba region<p>Do you know in last 10 years 200,000 farmers committed suicide just out of poverty. Just imagine 200,000 people (larger than the population of many European capital) committing suicide just out of hunger..That too is the official number. Some suspect it is around 500,000..It is a human genocide of worst form..So many people committing suicide just due to poverty<p>And you know what..Giving those 25,000 is not going to help. Charity by Mother Teresa or Diana or Bill gates is not going to solve this poverty of continental level..They may satisfy your ego..Maybe you can win a nobel prize but it is not going to solve any problem.<p>If you really want to help those guys just do one thing..Support outsourcing from your heart..support any policy that helps transferring millions of jobs from west to India..In this world only one country is solving poverty of indian scale and that is china and you know how they are solving it..So next time you hear that a company is transferring its entire manufacturing jobs to China or india just support that..it is at least going to save thousands of poor people from this abject poverty

I spent 3 weeks in India in February and have a totally different viewpoint. Amazing people, true hope at the prosperous future and an incredible will.<p>All about seeing the glass half empty or half full

This is an uber linkbait article from a pickup instructor turned internet marketer. Nicely executed.

Yes - the most horrendous thing about India is take-your-breath-away poverty. Kid are dying of hunger poverty.<p>That is the only thing which I really really don't like about India. It just seems wrong - very very wrong. Especially because it seems like there is enough money around to help these people.<p>All other things are ok and you can see in other countries - traffic is terrible, corruption, trash, ethnic violence, etc.

As someone who lived in south India for about 40 years, I can tell you that spiritual tourism is a good source of money.There are too many godmen and godwomen (some of them hugs people and some more sophisticated ones speak in the U.N... You will not find true Gurus here.True Gurus don't sell their wares in shops).<p>What you mentioned about dirty garbage strewn over the streets is true in most Indian cities and towns.If you wake up early enough,you will find women sweeping the area around their houses.They will not give a second thought before dumping that swill on the street.The same people will complain loudly about the local authourities not doing enough to reduce the garbage problem. Travel to Kochi by road.It is one of the fast developing cities in Kerala.Coming from Trissur side,the first thing you will notice is the huge dumps(about 3-4 mtrs high) of garbage on both sides. The people living in that area are definite candidates for cancer.I wouldn't wonder if another Plague epidemic happens in the near future.

Its the attitude. And its not because of 'jugaad' as quite a few other comments make here. Its because of another attitude called 'chalta hai' attitude. Which simply means 'even <i>this</i> is Okay'.<p>The reason for this attitude, I think, is because of being one of the oldest civilizations. Which is a fact, and often it used as a ego-massage and as a strong point in several discussions.<p>The point to note is that <i>this building</i> was built thousands of years ago, and is in a natural state of decay.<p>On the other hand, a country like US being a country of migrants was forced to start everything on a relatively clean state. So sort of a natural call to action - to build their lives.<p>If one takes anecdotal examples of families one may know of, one will see that the best ones in the families move on to a different place. The laggards are left behind.<p>One idea, comes to me as I write this, is what if we just ask people from two nearby villages, to just move their huts and belongings to the other village, and vice versa. Will it bring about any change in the attitude?

This article is too close to home. I am in Chennai now (South India) and I see the sights mentioned in the article every day. Heck!, I got people sleeping on the streets right outside my parent's house doorstep. In the last 10 years or so, with new airports, 4 lane highways, new shopping malls and numerous kinds of cars, all these has made ZERO impact on poverty!.

The problem he outlines about India are real and are serious ones. But the article is a shallow one and the author makes grand sweeps of imagination to make some crass generalizations.<p>Consider a few of these:<p><i>Indian culture itself is quite disorienting. The people can be incredibly warm and hospitable, or cold and rude depending on the context and how they know you. The conclusion I eventually came to is that if they already know you, or if they’re somehow benefiting from you, then they can be incredibly warm and open people. But if they don’t know you, or if they’re trying to get something out of you, then they are a prickly, conniving bunch.</i><p>Is this a specific Indian behavior ? You can find sycophants in any part of the world. It is not that Indian culture is wired to sycophancy.<p><i>But what Sanjay told me about Indian people is bizarre but true. He said Indians will rarely, if ever, resort to violence. As a foreigner, you never have to worry about being robbed, or having a knife pulled on you, or getting beaten up by a gang of thugs and having your kidney carved out of you. And this is true.</i><p>Except that it isn't. Cases of foreign tourists being robbed,threatened at knife point, mugged aren't rare. As a tourist one has to exercise caution in India as much one would do in any other country as a tourist.<p><i>BUT, Sanjay said, an Indian will lie to your face. He’ll say anything to get what he wants from you. And most of them don’t see it as immoral or wrong. So on the one hand, they won’t stick a gun in your face to take your wallet. But they’ll hand you fake business cards and offer to sell you something that they don’t actually have, so that you’ll voluntarily empty your wallet to them on your own accord.</i><p>Won't any conman from any part of the world operate the same way ? The author is stereotyping just because his Indian friend told it to be so.

being an indian and learning a lot about world, history and origins of modern society from the great gift of internet and spending entire 21 years of my life in a chaos like new delhi. i conform this article carry a lot of truth. after advent of capitalism india is just a place for corrupt and greedy entreprenuers , politicians and government employees who will go to any extent to be evil and take it all for themselves leaving rest of all the population to suffer. poor people not having anything to do fuck each other all day making such a rise in population and middle class or lower middle class people just prepare there whole lives to be slaves of some company or organisation. single truth that i discovered being a middle class indian is that india needs a sexual revolution and more freedom for women. because you cannot get a productive and creative society when most of the people who run it doesn't get a good fuck all there lives!

The problem that India faces are summed up quite nicely in towards the end:<p><i>Obviously, I’m no Mother Teresa. And it’s just as well, Mother Teresa couldn’t save this society from itself. Sometimes human systems become so large that they hurt people, not by design, but by inertia. And it’s beyond any of our ability to grasp, let alone control.</i>

Interesting responses.<p>I urge fellow Indians to check out theuglyindian.com. A bunch of guys (some are friends of friends) have got together to make an impact. These little grass roots efforts are working.<p>Lets participate and clean things up.

Looks like a lots of people from West (US and Europe) and many Indian's who were once in West have lots of Issues with India, primarily because of Out-Sourcing. Westerners, because they are loosing a lot of jobs to the ones in India, plus the "dusty" economy of West! Indians, because they were forced out of their beloved Work-Land, i.e the West, to move back to India. Grow-up hackers...

Oh Jesus Christ... Not another one of these posts. Guys, why do you write posts like this knowing the end result?<p>Someone brings to light an obvious flaw in <i>someone else's</i> country, people from that country feel like it's a direct attack on them and come up with bullshit excuses, the bullshit annoys people and the whole conversation spirals into denials, "I'm not in denial"s, "what about your _____"s, and "that's not the same as ______"s being thrown back and forth.<p>Person A: Your country is shitty!<p>Person B: You don't understand us!<p>Person A: You're in denial.<p>Person B: What about your country?<p>Person A: At least we don't _______!<p>Person B: That's not the same as _______!<p>This is the worst way to criticize someone's country/behavoir/business. It's all logic, no emotion, and humans do NOT respond well to it.<p>When criticizing some else's country always, ALWAYS, <i>ALWAYS</i> include an equal list of good and bad otherwise it <i>feels</i> like an attack on that person's homeland. The whole point of criticizing someone is to help them see their flaws (which they've normalized to and are oblivious to) and get better, but they can't get better when they aren't listening to you, and they aren't going to listen to you if they feel you are attacking them, they will attack back.

By being a foreigner and by travelling to touristy places the author is immediately in the high risk category. There are a lot of people trying to fleece tourists, especially foreigners. This colors some of his prespective, for eg.<p>&#62;But with only a couple hundred dollars lost, I got away fairly unscathed..

Ironic that a follower of Buddha's path saw and felt exactly what Buddha saw and felt thousands of years ago yet failed to recognize it.<p>More ironic is how Buddha's lifeboat for the poor and hungry turned out to be intellectual's tool for enlightenment.

Slightly different perspective on poverty, happiness and cultural diversity in India through the lens of music. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/show/soundtrippin?s=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/show/soundtrippin?s=1</a>

People allow it to exist because they choose not to think about it, although perhaps "choose" is too strong a word. It takes initiative to escape your local worldview.<p>Great article, btw.

I don't know where the author is from, what I want remind him is - "Open your mind, you are blind". Your are seeing what you would like to see, it's your problem.

Is it just me or does any other Indian find the Pizza Hut - "You've made an excellent choice" funny? I've never understood it to be honest.

India doesn't just have the best and worst of humanity in it. India puts a real mirror to you on what you think you know.<p>We live in a bubble. Trying to change our world with startups is quite different than trying to change the conditions 1 billion people live in.<p>The spectrum of good and bad in first world societies isn't as side as third world country. It's maybe why the good isn't good enough in our lives. Anything we experience in a foreign land as being shockingly bad, or good, can show how out of touch we are with humanity, and our own humanity.<p>This begs a deeper issue. Everyone likes looking outward, trying to understand the world, not themselves. We don't like righting with how little we actually know, or, more importantly do.<p>This article in many ways mirrors my experience of India. It's real. Sorry the education from TV makes it a bit shocking. That's what happens when we take someone's word on how good things are in another part of the world. There's a reason people want to leave and get out. Are Americans and Canadians desperate to leave?<p>This 0-star India is the majority's India. Not the 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 star India we can buy and hide in while visiting pretending to take in the foreign eat pray love exoticness of it all. They say you can tell the true state of a country by the numbers + health of their poorest. Similar experiences exist in other countries too. The money at the top does not find it's way down. The rich build themselves skyscrapers to live in so they don't have to deal with anything beyond their 4 walls. When the majority is not enjoying the advanced civilization, is it advanced, or civilized?<p>These are two good questions and ones worth not shying away from. They only provide us with more understanding of ourselves, and with dots connected, more determination to go make your startup fly. If we can't buy our self-worth and esteem from commodities, brands, and experiences, how can we judge anyone who's in such a harsh place of life not to improve their own life? Herein lies the quagmire of duality.<p>India suffers. From the shadow of it's dark past of brutal oppression of the masses by Indians themselves -- the masses were forbidden from education, learning trades, defending themselves from invaders and left to a life of subservience and suffering. This has carried through far too many generations, over 600 years. Still I hope is humanity can find some way to correct itself by the harshness of the original 1% in India.<p>If you go there, or anywhere, find your one corner of someone else's universe to make a dent in, whether it's a school for orphaned girls in India, or helping a homeless person in our own towns that everyone else sees as invisible and shower animals with more care. The hunger in someone's eyes is no different than mine when I have to drop what I'm doing and find some food.<p>When we give up on humanity towards others, we give up on our own too a little, and feed the monster ourselves. The moment we dare to take a minute to make strangers into real people, we become more human.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)</a>

Interesting. One note though: I wouldn't put Bill Gates and Lady Diana in the same league as Mother Theresa.

If you found this interesting, you might want to read "The White Tiger: A Novel" by Aravind Adiga.

Really good article. In India you don't 'live' you 'survive' every day. Hehe. (I'm an Indian btw)

Rich. No other adjectives can convincingly describe the plethora that is India. It is an experience that will kill you, and leave you discovering life – discovering you. Take your senses on a ride with its varied geographies that will raise you - with the tranquility to numb your thoughts - above the highest Himalayas and send you dipping to the complex of seas - angry some and transparent the others – not before it coats a layer of earth with the never ending plains on your humility and etches the burns of beauty on its deserts delving into the east so green as though you have travelled through the womb of nature. And all that changes the way your body smells, your senses perceive, your brain thinks. The sheer variety of a cocktail of experiences that is shoved towards you – from the dead stone caves of the Deccan to the fragrances of spice bazaars fighting among themselves, from the historical makeup of its traditions to the coexistence of its diversity layered with the shine of modernity all glued together by the religious cores of its life, from chaotic noises of it populated cities to places pure virgin, unexplored, from the finest of luxuries that the world has to offer to the free meals of a temple, from the complexity of languages to the simplicity of the hearts of its people – jostles your entire being. You learn that taste of food is not by its ingredients but by the hand that cooks it, that vivacity of culture is not in the art but in the artist that practices it, that the law of the land in not by civilization but by the embedded civilization, that modernity is not evolved from the old but that new is just a function of time and that time has varying speeds &#38; that it can even stand still or fly by - that relationships do not necessarily need people to know each other. You may spend all your money but might not be able even cover India’s peripheries or you may travel all of India for almost no money. You may be astonished by the dynamics of families; be warned - strangers may seem too eager to help. You may follow the trails of most ancient of religions or you may stroll through shiny city culture. India doesn’t need a preparation. Indian accepts you as you are. Sometimes India will scare you. Sometimes India will confuse you. Sometimes it will demand patience and sometimes it will test your sense-of-humor. Other times, all of it would get so overwhelming that you would want it all to just stop. And yet there will be times when you will let the experience flow through you. Most people come to India in search of peace, some inner philosophy or finding religion. You will be escorted to the most tranquilizing places on this planet, to the most psychedelic aura that the nature has to offer and to the most comprehensive of eastern philosophies. But that will not quench you. And then, in the busiest of the moments, amongst the crowded of places, you may discover ‘it’. Leaving India, it may not be certain that you will have your answers but it can be assured that you will be at peace – with yourself. Incredible. Absolutely unforgettable.

awesome article<p>some of my best friends come from India. it's an interesting place.

all the debate aside, lets face it India has way more social problems than most of the other countries in the world.

I'm searching for the tl;dr?

after read this article, I wish I'd better never go to India from now then.

"[India's] not a pleasant place to be"<p>What a stupid and close-minded thing to say.

I think I understand now why India has historically been the place that produced enlightenment, at a greater rate than other countries have.... Out of necessity.<p>It's hard to live in an environment like that without witnessing the game of life (the suffering), and hopefully, existing out of it.<p>And I don't mean the suffering of the poor, but also of the rich, the middle class, and everyone else there, that's a piece on the gameboard.

Many in north-east feel they are not Indians. <a href="http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-china-shelters-ulfa-leader-as-reply-to-dalai-lamas-base-in-india/20111101.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-china-she...</a>

For a westerner, the easiest way to understand is <i>Caste = Corruption</i>.<p>For e.g.<p><pre><code> 1. If you kill somebody, you should be **hanged**, if you're NOT from my caste. 2. If you kill somebody, you did it in **self-defense**, if you're from my caste.</code></pre>

why the hell did OP post this old ass december 2011 article to HN?

<a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/kmu/kmu03.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/kmu/kmu03.htm</a>

You haven't seen india fully,not even 10%. You cant blindly say the whole india is a shit hole. come to south india.It will be much better.