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How the Ivy League Broke America

69 pointsby yarapavan6 months ago

17 comments

lordnacho6 months ago
Long essay, but I agree with a lot of what&#x27;s said.<p>I think a lot of quality time is wasted due to the rat race starting in early childhood.<p>I live in a bit of a bubble in the commuter belt around London (ie not the US), but I observe some of the same obsessions here as well. In particular, I started to notice that my kid&#x27;s friends suddenly had a lot less time for playdates in the year or two leading up to the 11-plus exam, which is a selective school thing. There are similar exams for the private schools in the area. Of course what was happening was that their parents would hire a tutor to help them pass the tests.<p>The effect of this tutoring is on the whole negative. Obviously, it costs money. It also costs time that your kid would have to do other things. But also, it gives the kids the impression that school is super important, and they will be valued based on the outcome of this test. You end up with a few percent who get into the top selective schools, and everyone else is left with low expectations.<p>Inevitably, it also means that it becomes a game for rich parents. I went to the induction day at the fancy school, and guess what. The parents are a bunch of professionals, virtually nobody doing anything else, and most kids went to private primaries + got tutored. We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school.
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neilv6 months ago
&gt; <i>“Number one people go to number one schools” is how one lawyer explained her firm’s recruiting principle to Rivera.</i><p>What a load of number two.
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achow6 months ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;J7JOs" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;J7JOs</a>
Hilift6 months ago
Something missing is deindustrialization following WW2. The US northeast (where &quot;Ivy League&quot; schools are located) shifted a huge amount of industry to other parts of the country, where factories had been established during the war. A few years later, the south had more electoral votes than the northeast and midwest. The votes determine leaders, not educational institutions.<p>Look at the electoral votes from 1956:<p>NY: 45 PA: 32 TX: 24 FL: 10<p>Today:<p>NY: 28 PA: 19 TX: 40 FL: 30<p>Texas and Florida doubled their influence.
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FooBarBizBazz6 months ago
I&#x27;m really sympathetic to the impulse that led to this article, but I think it&#x27;s missing something central: The structure of the economy.<p>The word &quot;inequality&quot; (&quot;inequalities&quot;, actually) appears only twice, in one short paragraph, and it&#x27;s to unfocus the emphasis, away from just wealth, to also include respect.<p>Then the article, which bemoans an overemphasis on IQ and on the individual, suggests a variety of alternative measures by which we can determine which individuals get a slice of the decaying pie. There&#x27;s something self-contradictory about this.<p>We are witnessing a terrible arms race all throughout society, so that a smaller and smaller number of people can have a larger and larger share of desirable things. We&#x27;re fighting over who gets to extract value. Meanwhile, so much else is left to be undesirable. To be truly a bit shit. The largest firms are getting larger and larger, and you have to get into them if you want to get anywhere. Inequality between firms is way up. A handful of East India Companies is conquering all.<p>This &quot;Tiger Mom&quot; phenomenon is just the prisoner&#x27;s best-response to the situation.<p>The solution has to be a more broad-based cultural and material plenty. We have to have enough to go around, and we have to have nice things. People wouldn&#x27;t be gouging each others&#x27; eyes out if they didn&#x27;t think their peers were just competitors for scarce resources.
IceHegel6 months ago
The idea of building new institutions is basically right. You can’t fix Harvard.<p>But can you really build new institutions without a new civilization? The point of Harvard is the golden ticket to the upper class. The upper class now sucks (imo), so you can’t just have a better school with the same function.
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aboyko20006 months ago
Discussed previously: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42136210">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42136210</a>
Animats6 months ago
There&#x27;s a much better discussion of college admissions in Malcom Gladwell&#x27;s new &quot;Revenge of the Tipping Point&quot;.
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sapphicsnail6 months ago
It&#x27;s very strange to read an article complaining about the homogenization of the cultural elite that name drops the university of every author of a book&#x2F;article that supports his opinion. David Brooks himself is part of the very same cultural elite that he&#x27;s complaining about.<p>If someone really wanted to bring about a culture with leaders drawn from different economic strata the first step should be addressing people&#x27;s material needs. Parents can&#x27;t help their kids if they&#x27;re spending all their time working multiple jobs only to live paycheck to paycheck. It&#x27;s also hard to take risks or cultivate different skills when you&#x27;re saddled with college debt you can&#x27;t get rid if, and when healthcare and rent are taking up a large chunk of your income. People voted for Trump because neither side is willing to do anything to actually help people. That&#x27;s why people don&#x27;t trust institutions or &quot;the establishment.&quot; For all his faults, and least Trump is willing to lie to his base and promise some sort of change.
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keiferski6 months ago
I think this is fundamentally about the obsession with meritocracy, and not just the Ivy League. The Ivy League is merely the &quot;best&quot; system that subsequently became the obvious choice for a meritocratic filtering process.<p>Which means that this issue will arise in any social structure that is attempting to optimize for merit. There have been many books critiquing this idea, but one that is both old and has stuck in my mind is from T. S. Eliot&#x27;s <i>Notes Towards a Definition of Culture.</i> His basic point is that in a hyper competitive society driven by tests, evaluations, etc., basically no one is incentivized to preserve cultural practices – unless they somehow help one succeed in the new meritocracy. This functionally is a defense of the aristocracy, or of entrenched power that doesn&#x27;t need to &quot;earn&quot; its wealth by competing. I&#x27;m not sure how much I agree with Eliot, but I think this is a pretty compelling point that, a hundred years later, seems quite obviously to have been accurate, if we look at the loss of knowledge traditional art forms.<p>The problem with my comment here, though, is that is assumes the Ivy Leagues are <i>now</i>, currently meritocratic. It seems pretty obvious to me that they aren&#x27;t - which makes this an even more complex situation.
harvardTest16 months ago
Throwaway here with a side question:<p>Turns out, we have money. My spouse&#x27;s side did very well. We should have about 55M by time our kids get to college.<p>As long as my kids don&#x27;t do something stupid, the money will outgrow them. Like, they have &#x27;made it&#x27;, by all my definitions, at least.<p>So, my question: Do I bother with this rat race for my kids? I was part of it, I hated it, but it did turn out well enough for me (minus marrying well). We have access now to the best tutors and can more than afford great schools and programs and the like. Not a worry at all now. So, do I bother to do it?
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anonnon6 months ago
As a great counterpoint to this thinkpiece (which argues the meritocracy is working as intended but having <i>unintended</i> consequences for society and thus fails to make any mention of quotas or the college admissions scandal from 5 years ago), consider this one: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theamericanconservative.com&#x2F;the-myth-of-american-meritocracy&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theamericanconservative.com&#x2F;the-myth-of-american...</a><p>The author found evidence of widespread quotas restricting the admission of Asians (no surprise, at least not anymore), but more scandalously, also evidence of affirmative action benefiting Jews. (The author is himself Jewish, and at least back then, probably couldn&#x27;t have gotten away with writing it had that not been the case.)<p>Brook&#x27;s premise--that we did away with a nepotistic aristocracy (the &quot;evil&quot; WASP will-o&#x27;-the-wisp) and replaced it with a meritocracy--is false.
corimaith6 months ago
The biggest problem I feel with &quot;meritocracy&quot; is that we&#x27;re incurring huge costs on society all to pick up the best and brightest, but with very little returns in terms of societal benefits.<p>I don&#x27;t care about the guy who is higher up in the ladder than me, what I care about is the guy who builds more ladders, shorter ladders, elevators or such. And I think that most of our elites don&#x27;t or can&#x27;t do that.<p>The birthrate crisis, the competition crisis, the housing crisis, etc, I don&#x27;t think these people have the capability to solve them.
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gadders6 months ago
I think if people want to add extra evaluations on top of IQ, then fair enough, but they need to be of high quality and as repeatable as IQ tests, otherwise it will be a case of pseudo-science and ideological capture.
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myflash136 months ago
Any educational “system” strongly selects for conformity. A student can’t question the system or they’ll be sidelined early on and failed for giving the “wrong” answer. Geniuses are almost by definition weirdos who question the status quo. Yet most would get eliminated by the current educational system and it’s by-product of elites. That’s why true geniuses like Elon Musk somewhat ironically choose to rally the uneducated, not because he is intellectually aligned with them, but only because they allow much greater freedom to not conform. The truly intelligent shun intelligentsia.
matrix876 months ago
I guess because he has some school from the northeast on his resume, he can write this far too long, hand-wringing blog post where he hyperfocuses on the value of his own credentials<p>This is the problem with the Atlantic: the authors haven&#x27;t touched grass in a long time and it really shows
anon2916 months ago
&gt; And yet it’s not obvious that we have produced either a better leadership class or a healthier relationship between our society and its elites<p>Part of the problem is as follows and I see it so often in politics.<p>We have an excellent technocratic leadership class.<p>But being a technocratic leader does not make you a great leader of people, and frankly -- given the way many technocratic fields in the humanities are taught -- getting too deep in them makes you actively unappealing to people.<p>The article derides the various social clubs at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc as &#x27;non-academic&#x27;, but nothing is further from the truth. Humans have an innate draw to beauty, and one thing that is beautiful to basically everyone is a rich culture with traditions, institutions, and members [1]. One way to signal that is by learning the social niceties inside and out. This is no less academic since it doesn&#x27;t come from a book.<p>The &#x27;grinds&#x27;, as the article says, didn&#x27;t get that, and they were shunned not because they focused on books, but because they were unable to have a more expansive view of academics.<p>It is shocking to me when I see pundits today seemingly confused why the masses find appeal in particular candidates despite the pundits being able to list ten technical reasons why he should be disqualified. They don&#x27;t understand how people perceive things, and it&#x27;s so painful to watch.<p>I feel as someone who occupies a sort of &#x27;third space&#x27; here [2], I am really truly able to see both viewpoints. But it&#x27;s so difficult to explain to a technocrat the full range of human emotion, and it sometimes appears as if they&#x27;ve been handicapped in their ability to feel it.<p>As an example (and I would recommend Camille Paglia&#x27;s works), it&#x27;s fascinating to me how, despite our ever growing technical ability to produce great film, the actual emotional content of the film is ever worse. We have the most scantily clad females of all time but the fully clothed actors and actresses of the past were actually more sexually enticing. We&#x27;ve lost the sense of awe that CS Lewis talks about in the Abolition of Man. We have the greatest visual effects, but the emotional content of the film is so thin that you just don&#x27;t feel anything.<p>Where these feelings do exist, it&#x27;s in independent (read: not produced by the Ivy type) films and media, which is why &#x27;alternate&#x27; media has suddenly become so popular.<p>I&#x27;ll also just leave that Donald Trump has an innate understanding of people. People are shocked that he&#x27;s able to get so many seemingly random, seemingly opposed people behind him. They classify it as a trick. But it&#x27;s not. People vote and support who they like, not who has the best technocratic solutions. That is neither good nor bad. It just is. It&#x27;s a tale as old as time, and would be apparent if you studied the <i>actual</i> humanities.<p>Just so no one thinks I think Trump is some singular. Barack Obama is also one of these figures. And even Joe Biden is to some extent [3]<p>I can write a dissertation on this topic.<p>[1] It doesn&#x27;t matter the culture. All traditional cultures are enthralling<p>[2] I was raised in the &#x27;normal&#x27; way, but ended up at a second-tier &#x27;elite&#x27; school, and then -- adopting some of the stuff I learned -- moved into strategy consulting at one of the Big 3 where I learned even more about this type. I eventually moved back into tech (and do feel my career is better for having been through these experiences).<p>[3] Completely off-topic, but I also think that if you go to spaces inhabited by the technocrats, you&#x27;ll notice that &#x27;detachment&#x27; philosophies like Stoicism and Buddhism are very popular, whereas the masses go for attachment. It&#x27;s not a surprise to me that the Kennedy family, being Catholic, the exact opposite of Buddhism in that sense, was always seen as particularly charismatic and alluring amongst political dynasties
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