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Vesuvius Challenge: First letters found in new scroll

278 pointsby leocassarani6 months ago

12 comments

bambax6 months ago
&gt; <i>The autosegmentation jumps frequently between adjacent sheets, so is not yet precise enough to reveal contiguous texts, but it coarsely follows the entire scroll.</i><p>Maybe a stupid idea, but has anyone tried to make a new scroll with known content and markers&#x2F;known coordinates, and then cook it so as to bring it to a state close to the ones we&#x27;re trying to unroll. And then scan it, and use that to fine-tune the software?<p>There are probably simple insights that are extremely difficult to discover when looking at an entirely new problem, that would become more obvious when one already knows the original inside out.
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ggm6 months ago
Given this is a join over image analysis, text recognition, data science and a huge complex 3D analytical model of scans which has to be mapped to the surface states, unrolled, and then subjected to edge and other discrimination, I think the application of ML and other novel techniques is great.<p>The potential for applying lessons learned to other problems in complex surface&#x2F;manifold scanning, &quot;reading&quot; states from disparate imaging systems, it&#x27;s got big upsides.<p>I&#x27;m not particularly sure anyone is claiming this is an LLM demonstrator or proves AGI is coming so if you permit me to float a strawman: it isn&#x27;t.<p>It&#x27;s great science. Very impressive work.
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prashp6 months ago
Glad to see there are more developments in the Vesuvius challenge - it has been one of the most interesting things I&#x27;ve discovered on HN.
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someothherguyy6 months ago
Related: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39261861">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39261861</a>
kgeist6 months ago
&gt;the sequence τυγχαν may be the beginning of the verb τυγχάνω: “to happen,” or perhaps “not to happen.”<p>It says &quot;me tunkhan..&quot;, which would indeed mean &quot;let it not happen&quot;. Particle &quot;me&quot; means imperative &quot;not&quot;. Or it can be part of a condition: &quot;in case it does not happen...&quot;<p>&gt;there might be the beginning of διατροπή, a word found in other Herculaneum papyri that would mean something like “confusion, agitation, or disgust.”<p>But it could also be just diatropos - &quot;various, diverse&quot;. &quot;Diatrope&quot; can also mean &quot;shame&quot; and &quot;attack (of a disease)&quot; (for example, diatropai nautiodeis - &quot;nausea&quot;).
NKosmatos6 months ago
Being Greek and having a bad handwriting I’m sure I could help with deciphering some letters. Heck, I can even see a capital lambda “Λ” in the lowres image :-) This would be a good case for a crowdsourcing science project with Greek universities&#x2F;high schools.
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moregon6 months ago
This project is a gem, I invite everybody to read their landing page, especially the page announcing the Grand Prize winner of last year, where they also quickly describe the project [1], and the Master Plan [2], where they talk about their goals.<p>As a recap: - The real, narrative part of ancient Roman and Greek history comes from the tiny minority of texts survived by being copied through the centuries by medieval monks. We know a lot through archeology, epigraphy (engraved stones) etc., but the meat comes from the few ancient historians, philosopher, poets and so on we can read because medieval clerics thought them worthwile to preserve. - An exception to this are papyri, ancient &quot;paper&quot;, on which they wrote both high literature and grocery lists. They were used all over the ancient world, but most of them survived only in Egypt and other dried areas, for obvious reasons. They represent the one direct link to the texts as they were written at the time, apart from engraved stones (which, though, tends to be mostly gravestones, with some laws and political stuff thown in). Unfortunately, the great majority of papyri are fragments, and most of them concern bureaucratic stuff like receipts, contracts and the like, with sometimes a private letter or half a page from a literary work. Precious for historians, but not the kind of thing that changes our knowledge of history. - But here it comes the Villa dei Papiri in Herculaneum, the town that shared the fate of Pompeii and was covered by vulcanic ashed from the Vesuvius&#x27; eruption of 79 A.D. The Villa was the home of a Greek philosopher, and there people found, at the end of the 18th century, 300 carbonized scrolls from the studio of the guy. These scrolls represent an absolute rarity: hundreds of complete works, most likely never met before, from the haydays of the Roman Empire. They&#x27;re probably mostly philosophical books in Greek, but they could also contain lost plays, unknown great poets or histories about periods which have few or no sources about (we know that there were whole histories of the career of Alexander the Great that are now lost, we have dozen-of-years-wide holes in our knowledge of most of classical history etc.), - Unfortunately, these 300 scrolls are just lumps of coal. They&#x27;ve been cooked by the volcano&#x27;s ashes and fused shut. Any attempt to open them in the past caused the destruction of most of the scroll, and for hundred of years they&#x27;ve been considered lost. - Until today! A breakthrough in CT scanning technology (brought by one of the founding teams of this project) has made possible to scan this kind of ancient scrolls with X-rays, accessing the internal &quot;pages&quot; without destroying them. - Having a scan of the internal volume of the scrolls was all well and good, but still you couldn&#x27;t read anything! The scan doesn&#x27;t pick up the ink, and it wasn&#x27;t at all sure that there was a way to do it. That was the objective of last year challenge, gathering a community of competitors and mates to use computer vision and machine learning to virtually unwrap the scan and detect the ink inside, using AI&#x27;s ability at finding patterns invisible to the human eye. - In only 8-9 months last years challenge was completed successfully, earning the winning team a big prize (almost a million, if I remember correctly?). We were able to read some pages from inside a sample scroll, showing forever that the task is possible! - The goal of 2024 was to expand this PoC to read 5 whole scrolls and to improve the scanning process. At the moment we don&#x27;t know if the model developed for the Grand Prize of last year can be applied to the text of other scrolls, and anyway the whole scanning-and-virtual-unwrapping thing is incredibly time consuming and expensive and requires extensive optimization. I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s been any major breakthrough till now, but of course many teams could be waiting the end of the year deadline to publish, since it&#x27;s still a competition with money involved. - If the project is successful, the long term gains could be astounding. It&#x27;s not only the 300 scrolls we already possess, but the possibility that a whole library could exist, yet to be excavated, in the still buried part of the Villa. You have to consider that its owner was a rich magnate hosting Greek philosophers for the heck of it. It&#x27;s probable that he owned a big library, far bigger than the comparatively small one found in the studio of the philosopher. If we can develop a method to reliably read carbonized scrolls, the political impetus to dig the rest of the site would be difficult to resist. I&#x27;m Italian, I&#x27;d personally go in Rome to protest against the government if they didn&#x27;t allow it :D - Finding this hypotetical library would be like finding a mini Library of Alexandria, a revolution in our knowledge of the ancient world. If you&#x27;re even just a little bit interested in this kind of stuff, this is the Holy Grail!<p>As a programmer (boring CRUD stuff) with a master&#x27;s degree in ancient history (but I&#x27;ve forgotten most of my Greek and Latin), this project tickles both side of my life, my old academic aspirations and my current career. Unfortunately I&#x27;m not advanced enough in any of them to really contribute, since the tech part is super-advanced CV and ML stuff I can&#x27;t even pronounce and decifring papyri is a whole new ball game compared with the tame texts I was translating at university. That&#x27;s why I&#x27;m trying to evangelize about it, to at least contribute a little to its success!<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scrollprize.org&#x2F;grandprize" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scrollprize.org&#x2F;grandprize</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scrollprize.org&#x2F;master_plan" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scrollprize.org&#x2F;master_plan</a>
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brabel6 months ago
They say they have Python and C APIs that can be used to explore the scroll. I had a look and they have a &quot;tutorial&quot; in a Python notebook: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;colab.research.google.com&#x2F;github&#x2F;ScrollPrize&#x2F;vesuvius&#x2F;blob&#x2F;main&#x2F;notebooks&#x2F;example1_data_access.ipynb" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;colab.research.google.com&#x2F;github&#x2F;ScrollPrize&#x2F;vesuviu...</a><p>But I can&#x27;t make any sense of that, unfortunately :( can someone perhaps explain in terms a programmer would understand, how would I go about using this API to find the text? As far as I can see the dataset just contains a bunch of vertical and horizontal slices of the scroll and I have a hard time understanding how that can provide anything about what&#x27;s written in them.
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akie6 months ago
This is amazing! I couldn&#x27;t imagine such a thing possible, it&#x27;s basically sci-fi if you think about it. However, I couldn&#x27;t help but chortle and think of my GP when I read the words &quot;yet more text tantalizingly close to legibility&quot;.
cerebra6 months ago
This is really interesting and a challenge for folks who love to solve puzzles like this. Can&#x27;t wait to see what folks are able to uncover.<p>I wonder if any of the techniques used on other similarly decoded scrolls can work here.
jaythekiwi6 months ago
What an interesting technical challenge and puzzle. The fact these were traded for a few kangaroos is hilarious - I wonder who decided on that exchange rate!
Simon_ORourke6 months ago
I would defund many police forces belonging to &quot;constitutional sheriffs&quot; just to put together a fund to translate a few of these scrolls. Granted, it&#x27;s probably &quot;just&quot; an Epicurean library, but all the same it&#x27;s a good investment.