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Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

443 pointsby jjmaxwell45 months ago
Hi HN, we’re JJ and Mark, the founders of Double (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;double.finance">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;double.finance</a>). Double lets you invest in 50+ broad stock market indexes with 0% expense ratios. We handle all the management, including rebalancing and tax-loss harvesting—proactively selling losing stocks to potentially save on taxes—for $1&#x2F;month.<p>Our goal is to bring the low fee trend pioneered by Robinhood to ETFs and mutual funds. We posted a Show HN about 3 months ago (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41246686">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41246686</a>) and since then have crossed $10M in AUM (Assets Under Management) [1].<p>Here’s a demo video: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.loom.com&#x2F;share&#x2F;10c9150ce4114f278e8c249f211e7ec8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.loom.com&#x2F;share&#x2F;10c9150ce4114f278e8c249f211e7ec8</a>. Please note that none of this content should be treated as financial advice.<p>Everyone knows that fees eat into your investing returns. Financial advisors generally charge 1% of AUM per year, and ETFs have a weighted average expense ratio of about 0.17%, although some go as low as 0.03% for VOO. Over a 30-year period on a $500k portfolio with $2k invested monthly, the money lost to those fees would be $1.30M for the financial advisor and $244k for the average ETF and even $42,951 for the low fee VOO.<p>Double lets you index invest without paying any percentage-based fees - we charge just $1&#x2F;month. It works by buying the individual stocks that make up popular indexes. By buying the individual positions, we can also customize and tax-loss harvest your account, something ETFs or Mutual Funds cannot do.<p>Most ETFs and mutual funds today are not that complicated - they can be expressed as a CSV file with 2 columns - a ticker and a share number. You can find these holding csv files on most ETF pages (VOO[2], QQQ[3]). Right now there are about $9.1T of assets in ETFs[4] and $20T in Mutual Funds[5] in the US, with estimated revenue of $100B per year. We think this market is ripe for disruption.<p>We offer 50+ strategies that track popular ETFs and are updated as stocks merge and indexes change. You can customize these by weighting sectors or stocks differently, or even build your own indexes from scratch using our stock&#x2F;etf screening tools. Once you&#x27;ve chosen your strategy, simply set your target weights and deposit funds (we also support transferring existing stocks). Our engine then checks your portfolio daily for potential trades, optimizes for tax-loss harvesting, portfolio tracking, and redeploys any generated cash.<p>I (JJ) started working on this after selling my last company. After using nearly every brokerage product out there and working with a financial advisor, I noticed a huge gap between the indexing capabilities of financial advisors and what individual investors could access. We wanted to bridge that gap and provide these powerful tools to everyone in a simple, low-cost way.<p>There are a number of robo-advisor products out there, but none that we know of offer direct indexing without expense ratios or AUM fees. One similar product is M1 Finance, but Double is more powerful. We offer tax-loss harvesting, a wider range of indexes, and greater customization. For example, when building your own index, you can set weights down to 0.1% (compared to M1&#x27;s 1%) and even weight by market cap.<p>We also compete with robo-advisors like Wealthfront, but offer more control over your investments. And did I mention we don&#x27;t charge AUM fees? You can see our strategies and play with the research page <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;double.finance&#x2F;p&#x2F;explore">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;double.finance&#x2F;p&#x2F;explore</a> without creating an account.<p>Over the past year we’ve learned a lot about the guts of building portfolio software. For example, stocks don’t really have persistent identifiers that are easy to model and pass around. We trade CUSIPs with our custodian Apex*, but these change all the time for stock splits or re-org’s that you would not think would lead to a new “stock”.<p>We’ve also learned a lot about how tax loss harvesting (TLH) is best implemented on large direct index portfolios using a factor model as opposed to pairs based replacements which I initially thought might be the way to execute these. We do use a pairs strategy on smaller sized strategies. And how TLH and portfolio optimization generally is best expressed as a linear optimization problem with competing objectives (tracking vs. tax alpha vs. trading costs for example).<p>If you have any thoughts on the product or our positioning as the low fee alternative I’d love to hear it. I think Robinhood has proved that you can build a strong business by getting rid of an industry wide cost (in their case commissions, in our expense ratios). We aim to do the same.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.axios.com&#x2F;pro&#x2F;fintech-deals&#x2F;2024&#x2F;12&#x2F;10&#x2F;direct-indexing-platform-double-finance-raises-seed?utm_source=editorial&amp;utm_medium=social&amp;utm_campaign=pro_edit_regwall_01-24&amp;utm_term=regwall" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.axios.com&#x2F;pro&#x2F;fintech-deals&#x2F;2024&#x2F;12&#x2F;10&#x2F;direct-in...</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;investor.vanguard.com&#x2F;investment-products&#x2F;etfs&#x2F;profile&#x2F;voo#portfolio-composition" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;investor.vanguard.com&#x2F;investment-products&#x2F;etfs&#x2F;profi...</a> [3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.invesco.com&#x2F;qqq-etf&#x2F;en&#x2F;about.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.invesco.com&#x2F;qqq-etf&#x2F;en&#x2F;about.html</a> [4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;BOGZ1LM564090005Q" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;BOGZ1LM564090005Q</a> [5] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;BOGZ1LM654090000Q" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;BOGZ1LM654090000Q</a><p>* Edit to add a note on risk: If Double goes out of business, your assets are safe and held in your name at Apex Clearing. They have processes in place for these scenarios to help you access and transfer those assets. See more at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42379135">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42379135</a> below.

95 comments

fairestvalue5 months ago
Ummm, have y&#x27;all thought about spread costs?<p>If you look at the spread of any of these ETF&#x27;s mentioned (spread = ask px - bid px), you will notice that the spread is much smaller than if you were to sum up the spreads of each component stock.<p>That&#x27;s possible because of a mature ecosystem of ETF market makers and arbitrageurs (like Jane Street).<p>If you buy all of the stocks individually, as it sounds like y&#x27;all&#x27;s solution does, you will pay the spread cost for every. single. stock. The magnitude of these costs are not huge, but if we&#x27;re comparing them against VOO&#x27;s 17 bps&#x2F;yr expense ratio, it&#x27;s worth quantifying them.<p>I imagine eventually you can hope that market makers will be able to quote a tight spread on whatever the basket of stocks a client wants, but in the meantime, users would be bleeding money to these costs.<p>(Source: I work in market making and think about spreads more than I would like to admit.)
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JoshTriplett5 months ago
You&#x27;re coming into a market where most providers make much more money, and you&#x27;re undercutting and selling for $1&#x2F;month. $1&#x2F;month is below even most <i>cheap</i> B2C services, and many customers are likely to want a product like this to manage a large number of assets.<p>With what <i>other</i> product, service, arbitrage, float, or other mechanism do you intend to make more <i>substantial</i> amounts of money? Knowing what this is would help potential users trust you more. &quot;Ah, that model makes sense&quot; is a more comfortable reaction than &quot;I&#x27;m skeptical that this will continue to exist as a going concern that meets anyone&#x27;s expectations&quot;.
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hn_throwaway_995 months ago
I saw the &quot;Your Money is Secure&quot; section, but after things like the Synapse fiasco, I would like to get confirmation from you.<p>It says my money would be SIPC insured, which means if <i>anything</i> goes missing (obviously not through loss of equity value, but through missing funds or a ledger bug), I get my money back, up to the SIPC limit, right? I just want to ensure this isn&#x27;t the same situation with fintechs that say your money is &quot;FDIC insured&quot;, but that only protects you if the bank fails, not if the fintech goes bankrupt.<p>I&#x27;m just really, really wary of new fintech products to save like .3% on fees when I hear all these horror stories of people trusting fintech startups with their money any then losing 95% of their deposits like the Yotta customers.
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ddgddg5 months ago
much hate here; but mostly it is transparent jealousy arising from frustration about the great global money game being unfair and many educated and deserving ppl having no hope of ever making it off the bottom rung.<p>But jjmaxwell4 don&#x27;t let any of that distract you<p>1. This problem (solid, simple, inexpensive) direct indexing is totally real 2. Congrats on identifying this and getting going on it 3. All your best customers are almost certainly <i>not</i> posting on reddit. Again don&#x27;t let it distract you. This is a great idea 4. Pricing<p>While you don&#x27;t want to price on AUM, 1$ is going nowhere fast, and as someone who is jazzed to be an early customer, I would really appreciate it if I could pay more than 1$ (along with everyone else out there) to ensure that the lights stay on and you don&#x27;t feel pressure to sell to a trash retail bank who will just pepper me with lame cross-sells
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dayone15 months ago
1) are you going to sell your trade flow to Citadel &#x2F; market makers like Robinhood and your competitors do? That&#x27;s the dirty secret way of making money that you seem to have completely excluded. The reality is that adds up to substantial &quot;invisible&quot; fees that the investor has no transparency over because you sell your trade flows to them and they make a higher than normal spread. And the whole &quot;doesn&#x27;t matter if we sell your trade flows, the rules require you to get best execution&quot; is a farce and everyone in the industry knows this - otherwise there is no reason why Citadel or Virtu would bid billions of dollars to just buy the trade flow.<p>2) Are you going to rebate your borrow fees back to investors? This is the other dirty secret way of making money. Many people don&#x27;t realize that you can earn lending fees by lending your shares out for people looking to short stocks, and those add up to substantial amounts over time for a scaled asset manager. Do you keep this instead of rebating it fully back to your customers?<p>3) If the answer is no, you don&#x27;t sell trade flows and yes, you will rebate your borrow fees, can you make a lifetime commitment that you won&#x27;t go back on your word? Many people who start in this industry say they won&#x27;t sell trade flows and then after they reach scale they change the footnotes and agreements and starting selling trade flows.
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sumanyusharma5 months ago
I&#x27;m actually pretty interested in what you&#x27;re building. Sure, Vanguard and Fidelity are well-established giants, but they&#x27;ve barely moved beyond standard ETFs for decades. Having the option to tweak weightings at a more granular level and do daily tax-loss harvesting at scale seems like a genuine step forward.<p>I also like that you&#x27;re transparent about how you might eventually introduce additional revenue streams like margin lending or maybe even PFOF. Knowing that upfront is better than a sudden terms-of-service surprise down the road. Still, I&#x27;d hope you&#x27;ll consider giving users some say over how their shares are handled — like opting out of lending — so your incentives stay aligned over the long run.<p>Congrats on hitting $10M AUM. I&#x27;m rooting for more low-fee alternatives that keep the user in the loop!
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_benj5 months ago
Hi, and congrats on the launch!<p>I&#x27;m curious about how this service compares to, say, the offerings of zero expense mutual funds from Fidelity of Schwab? I guess there&#x27;s a lot more variety since I don&#x27;t think those brokers have 50+ indexes.<p>Have you found or might expect to find liquidity issues or spread costs with fractional shares? I imagine that if you have an account with, say, $3000 that is trying to implement S&amp;P500, the portfolio will me mostly if not exclusively fractional shares.<p>About positioning, I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;d be the target audience since I just buy and hold $SPY, $VOO, $IVV. If you could convince me that I could implement, say, S&amp;P 500 and be cheaper, more tax effective than holding those ETFs, that would be something interesting!
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redrove5 months ago
I wish you had been more clear this is US only.<p>I had to sign up, verify my email, tried opening an investment account, had to untick I’m a US citizen&#x2F;resident and only then did your platform let me know I’m not welcome as a client.<p>Oh and PS there’s no way to delete an account is there?
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Hasz5 months ago
One of the things you can easily do with your approach is to offer &quot;soft shorting&quot;. Essentially, one of the biggest issues with normal short positions is that downside is basically unlimited. Plenty of shorts have been wiped out in this very, very long bull market. Soft shorting, imo, is just discluding a particular stock from your index. No insane downside, less active, but still a bet against a company.<p>I want the option for an index of SP500, minus exposure to $TICKER. You approach could very easily facilitate that with how you will buy.<p>This can be an &quot;active&quot; component of an otherwise heavy bet on indexing.
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carbocation5 months ago
FZROX gives me 0% fees, can be bought in my retirement accounts, and is attached to a company with something like $1 trillion AUM. The latter gives me faith that it will still be around next year. I appreciate that the 0% fee options are limited, but personally I’d rather deal with 0.03% fees than entrust my money to a small shop. Especially when the reason to do so is not some trading edge, but saving a small amount on fees. I think this is going to be the main barrier to getting people to sign up.
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beryilma5 months ago
&gt; We handle all the management, including rebalancing and tax-loss harvesting—proactively selling losing stocks to potentially save on taxes<p>- For a non-retirement portfolio, isn&#x27;t rebalancing is a taxable event? Rebalancing by selling stocks and buying others is not the best approach. Isn&#x27;t it better to rebalance by shifting the focus of new investments based on a strategy?<p>- I think it is misleading to present tax-loss harvesting as a way of saving on taxes. I don&#x27;t know why people present it this way. In order to &quot;save on taxes&quot; you have to realize (i.e., sell stocks at) a loss first...
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taway789aaa65 months ago
&gt; The Firm assesses fees monthly, in arrears. Fixed fees are $20&#x2F;month, in arrears. Fees are debited directly from client accounts.<p>If the fee is $1&#x2F;month, why does your form ADV state that fixed fees are $20&#x2F;month? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;double-disclosures.s3.amazonaws.com&#x2F;Double+Finance+ADV+Part+IIA.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;double-disclosures.s3.amazonaws.com&#x2F;Double+Finance+A...</a>
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danielmarkbruce5 months ago
&gt;&gt; Over a 30-year period on a $500k portfolio, the money lost to those fees would be $1.30M for the financial advisor and $244k for the average ETF and even $42,951 for the low fee VOO.<p>How do you calculate $42,951 for VOO? Seems too high on 500k, or at very best you are conflating FV and PV and comparing apples to oranges.<p>First year is going to be $150. Last year is going to be maybe 2^3 * 500k * 0.03 = $1200? I&#x27;m sure you are then FVing all those but even then it seems like you must be assuming pretty high returns. If that&#x27;s what you are doing, surely calculate the FV compared to the FV of the portfolio (like $4 million or so). Or, do the PV of the fees which is going to be... $4500 or something.
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Glyptodon5 months ago
Looking through the surface level details of Double, I quite like what I&#x27;m seeing.<p>That said, I use Schwab, Wealthfront, and M1 and am not entirely happy with any of them so I am probably a targeted type of customer.<p>I haven&#x27;t lookeded too deeply (no idea if implementing things like HFEA style leveraged portfolios in an efficient way is possible, for example, or if there are non-index means of handling hold-till-maturity bonds), and probably will later.<p>That said, based on the comments here I&#x27;m curious:<p>1. I&#x27;ve always assumed % fees were related to the cost of risks being proportional to account AUM crossed with holding and transaction expenses. Fixed fees to me imply that you don&#x27;t think any risks on your end are portfolio size or transaction size proportional. If this is really the case, why is this the case? (Or why am I wrong about the link?)<p>2. Lots of commentators seem interested in questions about how you loan holdings and if shareholders get cuts and if you accept payment for order flow. I&#x27;m less concerned with these exact things and more concerned with how the customer relationship is defined. Is there an equivalent to being a fiduciary when it comes to handling such things? Or would that force you to not permit as much self direction from account holders? Are the $1 payers for sure the customer or is there a second side to your market&#x2F;business model?
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fairity5 months ago
There seems to already be significant competition in the low cost ETF space. For example, Schwab’s broad based s&amp;p ETF (SCHB) has $34b AUM.<p>The fact that there exists a competitive market suggests that there’s a good reason expense ratios can’t drop much further than .03%. Presumably, once you reach a certain size, there are costs associated with managing a low cost etf strategy that the end investor actually wants to pay for.<p>What makes you think you can beat these market rates in a way that is truly accretive to investors? Put another way, what is Schwab wasting money on that you won’t?<p>I doubt Schwab is just being greedy with their .03% fee. It’s necessary to cover their costs.
ram_rar5 months ago
As much as I love to use your product, the challenge from my perspective is why switch for 0.03% in fees? Especially when you compare it to likes of fidelity, vanguard , schwab. Those 3 are too big to fail. The point I am accentuating is, that just lowering the fees to 0 is not a compelling reason anymore, especially when the fees are soo low already, its race to the bottom.
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gdudeman5 months ago
Services like this can be very, very difficult to leave.<p>Be aware that if you are doing direct tax indexing with tax loss harvesting, you are increasing your tax liability in the future.<p>If you invest in direct indexing here, you have three choices if they tack on fees or you are unhappy with their service: 1. Take a random assortment of 300+ stocks and watch your portfolio become unbalanced over time 2. Liquidate your portfolio and up worse off than you would have with an ETF 3. Stick with it and pay<p>If they go out of business, you are stuck with the random assortment.
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koolba5 months ago
How do you intend to make enough money to stay a going concern? Charging $1&#x2F;mo adds up to peanuts and peanuts will not paying the salaries needed for running a highly regulated industry like this.<p>What are some examples for real world tax loss harvesting of this versus just rotating between things like VTI, SCHB, and ITOT?<p>I can’t imagine it’s going to be meaningfully more tax savings versus the monumental pain in the ass of dealing with hundreds of lots of many different stocks.
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elil175 months ago
I do think this is a great model for someone who wants to hold the S&amp;P 500 (which many people do).<p>However, educated index investors typically hold a total market index fund. Double’s US small cap offering is severely under diversified and there is no international offering. 10 bps is absolutely worth it to get broader diversification and international exposure.
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rafram5 months ago
Your site touts that you&#x27;re &quot;Technologists, not bankers&quot;. People entrusting you with thousands of dollars of their savings might want some actual bankers involved in the operation. Something like &quot;Security first&quot; might get the point across without raising as many red flags.
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otherjason5 months ago
If your roboadvisor is buying the individual stocks that make up the index in my personal account for me, do you have data that compares the slippage (bid&#x2F;ask spread) paid across all of these transactions versus a single purchase of very liquid ETFs like SPY?
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agsqwe5 months ago
How are you going to make money?
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losvedir5 months ago
I think direct indexing with TLH is a useful tool particularly when you are looking to diversity out of a large existing holding (say a bunch of RSUs or something from a public company you&#x27;ve worked at for a while). The direct indexing piece is nice because you can build &quot;around&quot; your existing holding, which you can&#x27;t do with, say, VOO. And the TLH is nice because you have a lot of capital gains in your position to offset.<p>This is something you can do with, e.g. Fidelity&#x27;s FidFolios, but those are paid for via an AUM fee.<p>Can you do the same here? That is choose an index, but seed it with some amount of shares that you already hold?<p>Another potential annoyance is filling out your tax return. Can you talk a bit about how that would work, with all the trades throughout the year you&#x27;ll be doing?<p>I&#x27;d also love any more info you can provide on how exactly you do TLH. A factor model linear optimization problem is interesting! When I talked to my Fidelity advisor she pitched it as the pair-wise solution you mentioned, and gave an example of &quot;sell Pepsi to buy Coke&quot;. But while the drinks are interchangeable, I&#x27;m not convinced the companies are! So I&#x27;m still a little hesitant on the idea of TLH at all.
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dehrmann5 months ago
&gt; I think Robinhood has proved that you can build a strong business by getting rid of an industry wide cost<p>Pushing legacy(?) discount brokers to zero fee trades is their greatest contribution to the industry, but their business and success has been positioning investment products more like gambling. I don&#x27;t have the data, but I suspect <i>way</i> more Robinhood users traded options than at Fidelity or Schwab.
short_sells_poo5 months ago
I&#x27;m unsure how you are proposing to build a sustainable business with such low fees. Assuming you need say 5 full time employees to run something like this somewhat robustly, and back of the envelope your expenses are say 2 million a year (which doesn&#x27;t afford you to pay anyone particularly well), you&#x27;ll need a 160k users (!) and you are only breaking even. And you have no chance in hell to provide decent support for that many users in an area as gnarly as finance. You&#x27;ll be facing a firehose of support requests all the time.<p>I&#x27;m sorry to sound negative, I really wish you all the best, but even from your post it looks like you had little to no idea what you are doing when you started this (you didn&#x27;t know stock tickers are ephemeral?). And yet you are asking people to trust you with their money? With the only selling point being that you seem to be unsustainably cheap? What made you decide that you have the knowhow to do this well and safely?
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shenoybr5 months ago
For a large, highly liquid ETF like SPY, it’s easy to rapidly unwind a position at a very tight spread. How does Double’s approach—directly holding the individual underlying securities—compare in terms of market liquidity and transaction costs, especially if I need to quickly liquidate my portfolio or adjust my positions?
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ahstilde5 months ago
I like the inclusion of a backtesting tool. However, I find it quite anemic.<p>I was hoping to see something like portfoliovisualizer to create strategies that I could then invest into. Especially as we&#x27;re seeing stuff like momentum strategies and dual momentum strategies come into play.<p>I understand I can replicate SPY. Can I replicate MTUM? UPRO?<p>Also, MIDU is missing.
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WiSaGaN5 months ago
I don&#x27;t really see the need to optimize on 0.03% fee of index ETF such as VOO or VTI. There are much more important things like liquidity, tracking error in whether a ETF is worth buying. Not paying reasonable fee on a service just guarantees some other nefarious ways to get back sooner or later.
parsimo20105 months ago
So a “typical” ETF costs me about 0.15% year, or around $150 for every $100k I have invested. While $12 per year would certainly save some money, it’s coffee money vs. life savings money. I think you’re going to have a hard time convincing me to move from offerings from companies like Barclays, Schwab, or Vanguard. Plus, zero fees doesn’t save me any money unless you can stay within 0.15% of the big index funds you’re going to be compared too. If you’re selling to harvest tax losses, I’ll bet there are some deviations at the fractions of a percent level that might erase all my savings.<p>Move fast and break things works great for computer startups, but if you want me to move my life savings over I need more confidence that you’re going to be around in 40 years and still have my accounts intact. And if I’m not bringing my life savings over, then it’s not worth the effort, because investments at the $10k level don’t really save me money.<p>Good luck finding early adopters who have money to throw at investment schemes.
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Etheryte5 months ago
The pricing page is not really useful and I would even go as far as to say it&#x27;s misleading. You compare the returns of your service to an advisor that costs $2000 an hour. The overlap between people who pay two grand per hour to an advisor and the people who use a $1 monthly subscription investment service is an empty set. What would be much more interesting would be if you showed a comparison of your service offering vs a cheap ETF. For example, how do your fees for rebalancing, buying, selling, etc add up when tracking the equivalent of VOO for a year, as opposed to just buying VOO? Right now it looks like you&#x27;re trying to hide this comparison and that sounds like it doesn&#x27;t look good for you.
gdudeman5 months ago
How do you expect to make enough money to have a venture-scale business? Wealthfront has struggled even with a 0.25% fee and Robinhood is successful because they have massive flow (not buy and hold), options, and other casino-like products.
dehrmann5 months ago
How do you manage the bid-ask spread not eating into gains when rebalancing? And what portion of the an index fund&#x27;s 0.1% expense ratio &quot;pays&quot; for that?<p>Also, how do you position yourself compared to Fidelity&#x27;s Custom Investing product?
burkaman5 months ago
I&#x27;d consider this if you had some kind of &quot;green&quot; fund that excludes oil companies and other polluters. I don&#x27;t want to invest in the oil industry, but funds like that tend to have pretty high fees and expense ratios.
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vincefutr235 months ago
For the PFOF skeptics, there isn’t that much money in pfof on liquid large cap stocks.<p>For the founder, have you thought about doing away with the 1$ for friction reduction while you scale given how tough the switching decision can be?<p>For the founder, have you considered using ACAT in incentives as a differentiated acquisition tool?<p>For the founder, are their “moments” people often switch their brokerage you could target aggressively? Ie I imagine Johnny software, 28 , is a hard sell to sit down and port their holding over from fidelity to save a couple of BPS, but maybe people starting their first job? Setting up a retirement plan? What’s your target “moment”?
nolanhergert895 months ago
I suggest you take inspiration from your competitor&#x27;s documentation on the topic.<p>The only potential upside for me is the benefit of tax-loss-harvesting, since I do my own investing and stay in standard ETF index funds. I thought TLH was only relevant for the $3K limit for income deductions, but after reading Frec&#x27;s great pages [1] [2], I see that it makes a lot of sense when you have a large capital gain in your future like a house or a diversifying stock sale that you want to accumulate losses for. They also answer a number of topics mentioned in the comments here and others not mentioned.<p>There&#x27;s a good chance I will end up investing with you, but only with new income. It&#x27;s not worth liquidating my current capital gains! I can also ensure I don&#x27;t have cross-account wash sales by keeping my other assets strictly in ETFs or just don&#x27;t sell anything.<p>I too hope that you will last long enough to make money in the other ways you are planning. Good luck!<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;frec.com&#x2F;tax-loss-harvesting" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;frec.com&#x2F;tax-loss-harvesting</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;frec.com&#x2F;resources&#x2F;blog&#x2F;direct-indexing-handbook" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;frec.com&#x2F;resources&#x2F;blog&#x2F;direct-indexing-handbook</a>
modeless5 months ago
I would need to know where your revenue comes from before I would consider putting money with you. Clearly $1&#x2F;mo is not going to be the only revenue opportunity you go for. It&#x27;s good that my assets are safe if you go under, but with direct indexing I&#x27;d be left with a giant mess of thousands of individual stock positions that would be very difficult to unwind manually.<p>I don&#x27;t care that much about saving .03% over SCHB but tax loss harvesting sounds nice. It would also be cool to exclude certain stocks I dislike from my portfolio.
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esses5 months ago
This looks amazing. It&#x27;s pretty clear from the comments how much skepticism and misunderstanding there is with financial products and markets, but you appear to be on the right track. Hoping for your success and to divert some funds to your platform.<p>- When my former VP and I looked back on our fintech that went under we concluded we should have went with Apex instead of building our own brokerage backend years ago - As you have called out, Corporate Actions is one of the most annoying parts of dealing with the financial markets
shred455 months ago
Do you manage the portfolio of each customer individually? How closely will this match the target portfolio for smaller investment sizes? I see that there are minimum investment sizes. Do I need to buy at least one share of each member of the SP500 for instance?<p>How do transaction fees compare with expense ratios of, say, Vanguard? I see that you account for them in your backtest, but it would be helpful to represent that in terms of an expense ratio.
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tananaev5 months ago
Don&#x27;t know if someone already mentioned this, but one of the main benefits of ETFs for me is portability. I can move them around to get sign up bonuses and other perks. For example, I got a 1% bonus recently just by moving my ETFs to Robinhood. Before that I got a 1% mortgage rate discount by moving ETFs to one the banks temporarily. That more than covers for the 0.04% expense ratio of the funds.
bityard5 months ago
&gt; the low fee trend pioneered by Robinhood<p>John Bogle would like a word
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cjonas5 months ago
I previously used wisebanyan which was a robo advisor with zero fees (their model was to charge more for add-ons like tax loss harvesting). Then they added small portfolio management fees... Then they sold to another institution and my fees are now inline with every other roboadvisor.<p>What would you say to someone who is skeptical about the long term viablity of your low fee promise?
TripleChecker5 months ago
Congrats on the $10M in AUM. I do really like how simple the website is to understand and the pricing is quite attractive (assuming it stays at $1&#x2F;mo).<p>A couple typos you might want to fix: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;triplechecker.com&#x2F;s&#x2F;840785&#x2F;double.finance" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;triplechecker.com&#x2F;s&#x2F;840785&#x2F;double.finance</a>
xur175 months ago
One thing I&#x27;ve always wondered about products like this: how is the portability between platforms?<p>For example, if double.finance shuts down, are there other platforms that I can transfer my assets to inkind that will maintain the index fund tracking for me moving forward? I realize I can use ACATS to transfer the assets, but I want index tracking as well.
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uranium5 months ago
TANSTAAFL<p>After spreads, tracking error, and overhead, it&#x27;ll be <i>really</i> hard to beat a Vanguard index fund.
sockaddr5 months ago
It&#x27;s a red flag whenever I see an unclickable, unbrowsable, unverifiable &quot;what people are saying&quot; section. Even on the scammiest sites selling you trash on YouTube you&#x27;ll see the same fake reviews. I immediately distrust places that do this.
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coldpie5 months ago
I&#x27;m not super well versed in how investing stuff works, so sorry if I get some words wrong. This isn&#x27;t a fund I&#x27;d be able to purchase from my existing brokerage&#x2F;retirement accounts, right? I would have to actually give my real money to you (via &quot;Apex Clearing,&quot; who I&#x27;ve also never heard of &amp; doesn&#x27;t even have a Wikipedia page) to hold &amp; manage? Even in the best of times, it&#x27;d take quite some convincing for me to give a significant amount of money to a brand new company, and the reputation of recent finance startups is uhhhhhh not fantastic. How are you going to convince me you won&#x27;t take my money to go buy some property in the Bahamas?
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mushufasa5 months ago
If you are making money from payment for order flow (based on transactions) with a direct indexing strategy, you may be incentivized to encourage customers to rebalance more frequently than they might otherwise in order to accrue fees from those trade transactions. For example, daily rebalancing&#x2F;tax loss harvesting sounds neat, but how it is implemented can vary -- you would be incentivized to trade client accounts &#x27;trigger happy&#x27; whenever possible to maximize fees. I could see that leading to the $1-10k annual revenue per customer that people on this thread are confused about relative to the $1 flat account fee.<p>The potential negatives of this bias that I can see for customers:<p>- tax loss harvesting is more a craft than a science. The goal of investing is primarily to have gains! And no one can predict the future fully. So it&#x27;s really hard to know if selling a large position at a loss is a good move -- if that position goes up next year you may have missed out (like selling NVIDIA 3 years ago in a dip -- you would have been following the TLH playbook but you would be kicking yourself now).<p>- If this is indeed your business model, this model only works for direct indexing portfolios with many stocks, so you will be biased to suggest portfolios with many companies instead of concentrated holdings, and biased against offering ETFs&#x2F;funds.<p>Not the end of the world in terms of negatives. But I just wanted to mention that &#x27;churning stocks for fees&#x27; is a business model I haven&#x27;t seen discussed on this thread.
glitchc5 months ago
Are you registered with the SEC as an investment fund?<p>Edit: Thanks, answered earlier in comments.
frakkingcylons5 months ago
I&#x27;d be interested to see your rates for margin if you do decide to offer margin.<p>I don&#x27;t use the margin to get more market exposure. I treat it as a lower APR credit card with a sizable credit limit. Interactive Brokers will charge me 6% instead of 20+% of a typical credit card. I don&#x27;t use it much, but I like having it. I don&#x27;t know if it makes business sense to offer lower margin rates than IBKR to retail customers, but I&#x27;d be interested. Before someone lectures me: I consider 10% of my holdings to be my &quot;credit limit&quot;.
ikourtid5 months ago
<i>PAYMENT-FOR-ORDER-FLOW IS GOOD FOR YOU</i>. There, I said it. [Source: I have 10 years of HFT &#x2F; market making experience]<p>PFOF is misunderstood, as others pointed out here. However, it&#x27;s not a &#x27;win win win&#x27;; it&#x27;s more like a &#x27;win win lose&#x27;. This is something even media gets wrong <i>all</i> the time. I&#x27;ve only seen this mentioned as a footnote in Matt Levine.<p>[Note: I don&#x27;t know if Double is doing it, or if they plan to - this is just a general summary].<p>So:<p>* Win: Citadel (etc.) make money by trading against order flow that&#x27;s more benign than the resting orders in public exchanges.<p>* Win: The client gets a better execution price than the publicly displayed bid&#x2F;ask. Back when I started (20+ years ago, yes, I&#x27;m old) this was 1&#x2F;100 of a penny, the legal minimum (due to minimum tick print size). But recently, the market orders in my personal account have been getting price improvement of almost half the spread.<p>Things are a bit different in some <i>options</i> exchanges, where retail flow gets some priority, regardless of when you joined a given price point at the order book queue. But almost all equity exchanges use price-time priority, you&#x27;re almost guaranteed adverse selection.<p>Example for those who may need it: if you place a buy limit @ $1.07 in a 1.07 (bid) - 1.08 (ask) market. Then, the bids at 1.07 slowly disappear, because firms such as &quot;Shark Holdings, LLC&quot; (the trading firm consisting solely of quants with unpronounceable foreign-sounding names) will cancel their bids if they sense the market is going down, e.g. if they observe a lot of trades at the bid. Then, the new market will be 1.06-1.07, and you will have sold at the ask.<p>OK, so here&#x27;s who <i>loses</i>: any large orders that have to trade in the open markets (not &#x27;dark pools&#x27;, ATS, etc.) will be stuck with more &#x27;toxic&#x27; orders, and get worse execution. The question is: do I gain more as an <i>individual</i> from having my (quasi-entertainment-value, usually small) personal account orders get better execution? or do I lose more by having my <i>indirect</i> trading (possibly an index fund that I hold my retirement money in) get worse execution? I think it&#x27;s the latter. But nobody connects the dots and&#x2F;or seems to care. [Of course, this is more complicated, because large institutional orders aren&#x27;t 100% on behalf of small investors.]<p>You may say this component of market structure is stupid&#x2F;wrong&#x2F;suboptimal. I personally think so. But this is the reality of it. It&#x27;s encased in rules. There was some attempt to get rid of PFOF a couple of years ago, but it failed. So that&#x27;s not going away.<p>So this is a win-win-lose: it&#x27;s globally suboptimal, but for the 2 first &#x27;wins&#x27;, it&#x27;s locally optimal.<p>Summary: although PFOF has bad optics and stimulates pitchfork-y instincts (&quot;big bad evil companies are out to gitcha&quot;, etc.), if your broker doesn&#x27;t do it, you&#x27;re both leaving money on the table - and guess what, they&#x27;d have to charge you some other way.
fuddle5 months ago
How do you put together strategies such as &quot;High Performance Small Cap&quot;? Does your backtest include delisted stocks to avoid survivorship bias?
tmendez5 months ago
Does it rebalance daily? Wouldn&#x27;t you pay short term cap gains if it does?<p>Or is the strategy to buy an index, then only sell losers after an amount of time?
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ahstilde5 months ago
Where&#x27;s the calculator that tells me if I save money with y&#x27;all vs with current legacy brokerages (schwab, fidelity, vanguard, etc)?
LAMike5 months ago
It&#x27;s cool, but I&#x27;m wondering what the breakeven cost would have to be if you weren&#x27;t planning on making money from PFOF?<p>Can easily see this being $5-10 a month without a problem or even $500 lifetime pass for early supporters. Also if you add Lightning Network deposits to a portfolio I would be more likely to use it, you can make money off the spread too as long as it is under 1%
TuringNYC5 months ago
&gt;&gt; One similar product is M1 Finance, but Double is more powerful. We offer tax-loss harvesting, a wider range of indexes, and greater customization. For example, when building your own index, you can set weights down to 0.1% (compared to M1&#x27;s 1%) and even weight by market cap.<p>+1 on the comparison to M1, and congrats on your release @JJ and @Mark
ddulaney5 months ago
How are you tied back into the financial markets? Are you yourself an exchange member? Or are you going through a traditional brokerage? Or are there other middlemen?<p>I’m really worried about putting my money into any startup after the Synapse collapse, where a middleman for lots of tech-forward not-a-bank companies collapsed, stranding customer money.
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expat12414145 months ago
The site says it&#x27;s available to US citizens, but I couldn&#x27;t get through the onboarding flow as an expat living outside the US, e.g. no state tax filing. So it&#x27;s not actually available to US citizens, just US residents (including citizens).
giantg25 months ago
If you&#x27;re handling rebalancing and holding stocks individually, how does the tax efficiency compare to ETFs?
paxys5 months ago
I&#x27;m curious about how direct indexing impacts tax filing. You mentioned generating short term&#x2F;long term capital gains numbers, which is fine, but what about all the different transactions? Won&#x27;t someone using your service have to enter all of them manually on their return?
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loeg5 months ago
How do you intend to handle uninvested cash? The big non-Vanguard players (Schwab, Fidelity) make up for their low nominal fund fees via Net Interest Margin on uninvested cash. Do you intend to offer market-rate interest on cash (e.g. $VMFXX), or take a significant cut there?
iamsaitam5 months ago
In the age of internet, it&#x27;s important to mention prominently which countries&#x2F;jurisdictions you work with.
_imba_5 months ago
Interesting, I&#x27;m in the industry and secured lines of credit, and insurance is definitely viable alternative revenue generators for a userbase like this and actually dovetail nicely. Wishing you all the best.
jnskender5 months ago
Any relation to Boldin Financial Planner? Your sites and logos are extremely similar.
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sagivo5 months ago
I think it&#x27;s a great idea. I wanted to do it myself many times and didn&#x27;t have time for it. I hope it will shake this industry and help bring fees down.
mitthrowaway25 months ago
Who controls the voting rights to the shares purchased through these investments?
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divbzero5 months ago
What revenue streams, if any, are you considering in addition to the $1&#x2F;month fee?<p>(If there are no other revenue streams, what scale do you need to attain to cover operational and regulatory costs?)
kyt5 months ago
Very interesting product!<p>I consider myself pretty financially literate, but I had no idea what an &quot;expense ratio&quot; was for certain. I assumed it meant fees but I had to look it up.
tlombardozzi5 months ago
Excited to try this out JJ. Have wanted to build an infrastructure-focused portfolio for a few months now and am excited to have an actual tool to help me build it now!
arjunlol5 months ago
This looks great. I&#x27;m usually very much a DIY type of person when it comes to investing because of the typical fees mentioned, but excited to try this out!
maclagor5 months ago
I will just say, that as a user of both Robbinhood and Double, Robinhood feels more like gambling while Double feels like strategic management. Great product.
sergiotapia5 months ago
As a layman, how is this different from just buying FZROX automatically every week for the next 30 years? No snark, trying to learn for my financial future!
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lazingabout5 months ago
Is this possible to move funds from a Roth IRA or 401k into these low cost ETF alternatives, without taking them out of the tax advantaged structure?
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dboreham5 months ago
I might be interested in a broker that would split the kickbacks they get for submitting my trades, fully accounting for that revenue.
insane_dreamer5 months ago
Looks like a great product. In all honesty though it would take a lot to get me to switch from Wealthfront because they not only offer these funds but also various IRA funds, bonds, etc. I like having everything in one place, and I don&#x27;t have the time, nor sufficient knowledge of the market (if I&#x27;m honest with myself), to micro-manage my investments, so I can put up with a 0.25% AUM fee to &quot;set it and forget it&quot;. But for those want more control or who are trying to reduce fees as much as possible, this looks great. Good luck.<p>Update: Having said that, the fact that you say stocks are held in an account at Apex in my own name (avoiding the Synapse problem), is attractive. I&#x27;m actually not sure whether Wealthfront does that. That would be an incentive to get me to switch (or at least partly).
mamcx5 months ago
Is this open for investors outside the USA? LLC?
ddyulgerski5 months ago
Is the plan to make money from stock lending?
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hartator5 months ago
Why not doing a VOO-like ETF, but at 0.01% expense ratio?<p>Direct indexing seems fun, but it will be very messy at tax time.
didip5 months ago
One pain point I can see is during taxation. The 1099 will be long if your robo trader frequently trades.
Glyptodon5 months ago
Can you (is it okay to) TLH assets that you have separate holdings and purchases of in IRAs or 401ks?
datavirtue5 months ago
I&#x27;m wondering how&#x2F;why you can actively manage a fund cheaper than Vanguard.
_nvs5 months ago
Congrats, this is something I’ve wished existed. Looking forward to becoming a customer!
nahtnam5 months ago
I would love to see a &quot;Politicians&quot; section which copies their investments
oatsandsugar5 months ago
That&#x27;s super! Do y&#x27;all have no petroleum etfs on offer?
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throwaway691235 months ago
can you make a savings account that auto holds my money in index funds extends me short term credit and pays debt through selling the underlying assets
Kenbook5 months ago
Great idea, excited to watch you guys grow!
mitthrowaway25 months ago
Will this be available in Canada?
mmmore5 months ago
&gt; There are a number of robo-advisor products out there, but none that we know of offer direct indexing without expense ratios or AUM fees.<p>Yeah, I&#x27;m a little confused at what you&#x27;re offering over existing options (e.g. Wealth front, Betterment, M1). If the answer is just &quot;it costs less&quot; won&#x27;t you raise prices when it comes time to make money? I suppose &quot;the thing that already exists, but slightly better&quot; is not necessarily bad.
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presson5 months ago
Love this, fees add up!
adv0r5 months ago
no european customers?
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nobodywillobsrv5 months ago
I came here expecting to see how custodial and accounts stuff works. SV tech bros don&#x27;t exactly have the best reputation when it comes to segregation of accounts and custodial stuff, credit etc.<p>Assume the model is bad and they gradually lose money and close. How does it work?
psawaya5 months ago
Very cool :)
westurner5 months ago
How does running index funds with 0% expense ratios differ from running diversified 401(k) funds?<p>Gusto payroll data can be synced with Guideline, which offers various 401(k) and IRA plans.<p>Are there All Weather or Golden Butterfly index funds?<p>Which well known index funds are weighted and which aren&#x27;t? (This is probably not common knowledge, and might be useful for your pitch)<p>Given that you can&#x27;t buy fractional shares, how and when are weighted indexes rebalanced to maintain the initial weight?<p>Like most funds, the S&amp;P 500 index demonstrates Survivorship bias: underperformers are removed from the index, which thus is not a good indicator of total market performance over time.<p>From <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.investopedia.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;investing&#x2F;030916&#x2F;buffetts-bet-hedge-funds-year-eight-brka-brkb.asp" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.investopedia.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;investing&#x2F;030916&#x2F;buffe...</a> :<p>&gt; <i>Buffett&#x27;s ultimately successful contention was that, including fees, costs and expenses, an S&amp;P 500 index fund would outperform a hand-picked portfolio of hedge funds over 10 years. The bet pit two basic investing philosophies against each other: passive and active investing.</i><p>It&#x27;s common for (cryptoasset) <i>backtesting</i> to have the S&amp;P 500 as a benchmark. Weighted by market cap, the S&amp;P 500 may or may not have higher returns than cryptoassets (for which there were not ETFs for so long).<p>Do you offer index fund backtesting; or, which performance and relative cost savings metrics do you track for each index fund?<p>How would a hypothetical index fund have performed during stress events, corrections, drawdowns, flash crashes, stress testing scenarios, and recessions; according to backtesting?<p>Do you offer fundamentals data?<p>Do you offer [GRI] sustainability report data to support portfolio&#x2F;fund design?<p>Do you offer funds or index fund design with an emphasis on sustainability and responsible investing?<p>Can I generate an index fund to focus on one or more Sustainable Development Goals?<p>What is the difference between creating an index fund with you as compared with holding stocks in a portfolio and periodically rebalancing and reassessing?<p>IIUC in terms of cryptoassets:<p>- A (weighted and rebalanced) index fund is a collection of tokens.<p>- Each constituent stock or ETF could or may already be tokenized as a cryptoasset.<p>- A token is a string identifier for an asset. A token is a smart contract that has the necessary methods (satisfies the smart contract functional interface) to be exchanged over a cryptoasset network with cryptographic assurances.<p>- A &quot;wrapped token&quot; is wrapped to be listed on a different network. So, for example, if someone wanted to sell NASDAQ:AAPL on a different exchange or cryptoasset network they would need to wrap it and commit to an approved, on-file ETF fund management commitment that specifies how quickly they intend to buy or sell to keep the wrapped asset price close to the original asset&#x27;s before-after-hours-trading market price.<p>- (ETFs typically have low to no fees. When you own an ETF you do not own voting shares; with ETFs, the fund owns the voting shares and votes on behalf of the ETF holders).<p>There are EIP and ERC standard specifications for bundles of assets; a token composed of multiple other tokens. A wallet may contain various types of fungible and non-fungible tokens. For wallet recovery and inheritance and estate planning, there&#x27;s SSS, multisig transactions, multiple signature smart contracts, and Shamir backup, and banks can now legally hold cryptoassets for clients.
tschwimmer5 months ago
I like the idea behind this business and like the value that you are providing. I&#x27;m a target customer because I&#x27;m sensitive to investment fees and have done lots of comparison shopping over my investing lifetime.<p>Unfortunately, I won&#x27;t use your product. While you do appear to be cheaper than Vanguard for a comparable product, I don&#x27;t think the risk of switching is worth it. The primary risk I&#x27;d be worried about is your business model changing (or you getting acquired by legacy finance) and increasing fees down the line, at which point I&#x27;d feel like I&#x27;d want to switch back to Vanguard. I&#x27;m also worried about exposing myself to your organizational risk (e.g. your internal controls failing and an employe running off with the money, your accountant falling victim to a deepfake scam, etc.) which I suspect is going to be much higher than your competitors. For the additional .17%, I actually feel that Vanguard is a damn good bargain.<p>I think your product actually does have a lot of value for folks invested in crappy mutual funds or with some advisor taking a massive AUM fee, but I don&#x27;t really think those consumers are generally lacking the information required to understand that your product is superior, I think they&#x27;re just going for something different.<p>It&#x27;s a tough spot. The market size is obviously tantalizing but I feel like the segments are all reasonably well served as it stands. For the folks that you&#x27;re really targeting, I think it&#x27;s very hard to beat Vanguard. Their corporate structure and huge size really gives them a massive advantage that seems hard to beat. Best of luck to you folks!
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solaarphunk5 months ago
Are you paying yourself with securities lending revenue?
aquigley5 months ago
Cool product! But I would love for this to have a decentralized backend using tokenized assets as the securities. It would help me solve the trust issue with yet another new FinTech startup and then I wouldn&#x27;t mind letting you collect the PFOF if I could swap out backends if needed. Or can let the community develop the best strategies&#x2F;factor tilts&#x2F;tax alpha for each individual&#x27;s unique situation.