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The Zizians and the rationalist death cult

185 pointsby dsr_4 months ago

34 comments

awanderingmind4 months ago
I have had zero real-life interaction with the rationalist space beyond exchanging some emails with people and reading numerous blog posts, reading lesswrong, and stuff like that, but this post seems to lean too far into drawing a conclusion about a very non-homogeneous group of people based on a few individuals that seem to be mentally unwell.<p>While I have become less enthusiastic about rationalism (in the sense of this post, not in the sense of the philosophical tradition) over time, the space seems to consist mostly of nerdy people who try really hard to reason properly. Sure, they sometimes come to absurd conclusions, but in general they have interesting perspectives and analyses. Without data on the percentage of people who reach the cult-like status referenced in the post, it seems premature to deride the entire enterprise; in any sufficiently large population group you will have that type of behavior.<p>On the other hand the point about them being related in spirit to the various &#x27;self-improvement&#x27;, &#x27;New Age&#x27;, or whatever movements in California surely isn&#x27;t WRONG, but it feels a bit... underdeveloped? I&#x27;m sure there are loads of connections, simply because the movement seems to be centered (in meatspace, anyway) in California. A more scholarly analysis explicitly drawing the connections would be more useful (and interesting!) than an ad hominem comparison to Scientology and the Manson family(!).
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screye4 months ago
A comment on another thread mentioned California&#x27;s predisposition to New Age cults.<p>California makes it easy to avoid touching grass. It lacks the population density of the Northeast Corridor which forces social collisions. It lacks the conservative pressure of middle American Suburbia which forces conformity. Lastly, it allows you to circumvent globally consistent corporate culture through well-paying backend (not people facing) jobs.<p>Intelligent misfits must touch grass. Like glacier carved mountains, normal social collisions force misfits to step outside their own head. It scrubs the trivially repulsive parts off them.<p>Ofc, young misfits being willing to entertain novel&#x2F;strange ideas results in bullying from normal people. It&#x27;s tempting to disregard all normal people as close minded bigots. However, it&#x27;s important for misfits to continue pushing at understanding. Normal people are harmless. But,these misfits are both intelligent and high agency. So they have a capacity for both great good &amp; evil. Put simply, these misfits need common sense.<p>Because when spiraling misfits find spiraling misfits, they can accelerate into dark places real fast. Add a few drops of common sense, and it stops the stupidest ideas right at their inception.
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lemonberry4 months ago
Interesting to see CFAR involved. I&#x27;m a big fan of Julia Galef. She&#x27;s the president and cofounder of CFAR.<p>One of the things that struck me most was an interview with her years ago talking about the people that CFAR let into their programs. She said something to the effect that they didn&#x27;t let people in that were trying to change other people&#x27;s minds, but that were out to clarify their own thinking.<p>I really liked that. I&#x27;m a big fan of intellectual honesty: pursuing truth (however loosey-goosey that is for humans) rather needing to be right or win the argument.
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Trasmatta4 months ago
I&#x27;ve been following the &quot;rationalist movement&quot; for a long time, and there has always been so many early cult warning signs among the various sub groups. I&#x27;m sad that it&#x27;s gone so far as to result in deaths and murder attempts with some of them. I expect it to get worse as some of the &quot;rationalists&quot; continue to embrace bizarre groupthink irrationality.
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Fraterkes4 months ago
Slightly offtopic but, Lesswrong and the Rationality community more broadly have had AI-safety as their main focus for nearly as long as they exist. Now that AI is actually making advancements, very little of that work seems to have had much effect. Theres the famous Vonnegut qoute about the combined effort of all preeminent artists protesting the Vietnam war having the effect of a pie dropped from a step-ladder. Id argue that the vietnam war protests were vastly more effective at achieving anything than the AI-safety research. So isn&#x27;t all of the above an essentially complete indictment of the rationality movement, seeing as it has effectiveness and pragmatism as its main pillars?
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roenxi4 months ago
My favourite part about the rationalists is that they are a completely normal community apart from the rationalism. You&#x27;d think a group of people devoted to being rational would be a group of monk-like beings, cerebral, disconnected from the concerns of the flesh.<p>Instead we get this weird hotbed of fanfiction, cults, wild sex crime allegations, financial schemes so brazen they almost wouldn&#x27;t qualify as fraud and a vague sense of some sort of group that are capable of any evil. Plus I can&#x27;t stop laughing at the idea of Aella as &quot;that rationalist hooker&quot; [0] - a combination of words which never fails to make me chuckle.<p>The whole scene really deserves some sort of film, book, video game or something. I can&#x27;t get a vision out of my head where some straitlaced person realises rationalists are involved and their face twists in horror. Keeping an eye on them over the years the communities that grew up around LessWrong really are as good as any work of fiction. Plus they&#x27;re doing their best to make the world better and maybe people will learn something about Bayesianism, who knows.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;knowingless.com&#x2F;about&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;knowingless.com&#x2F;about&#x2F;</a>
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DiscourseFan4 months ago
And they say studying Philosophy is useless!<p>This idea of &quot;Rationalism&quot; does bear a remarkable correspondence to its 17th century cousin, in that it allows &quot;Reason&quot; to run wild, to go to the end of all its conclusions. That is the importance of Kant&#x27;s <i>Critique</i> of Pure Reason, as Kant introduces finitude into the discourse of philosophy; since, Reason, left to run wild, will always miss the empirical world. Thus, there can be stupid questions, there can be things that are just &quot;nuts,&quot; not because they can be proven right or wrong, but because the very basis of the question is already outside of empirical possibility and practical use.
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anonnon4 months ago
I get people are probably going to flag this like they did the other article (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42897871">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42897871</a>), probably more so out of concern for the trans optics (Ziz and many in her orbit are trans&#x2F;non-binary) than how it reflects on the wider rationalist community. But we should be able to discuss why this group, which is influential in discussions of AI alignment, is producing these people. Zizians aren&#x27;t the only ones. Luigi Mangione was also a rationalist (and cis), and I remember a thread on a certain website that documented some other oddball fellow travelers. How does a community dedicated to &quot;rationalism,&quot; whose leader writes Harry Potter fanfics, produce people like this? Does it attract maladjusted people to begin with? One common thread seems to be psychedelics. Mangione, for example, experimented with psychedelics heavily (possibly to treat pain) not long before he assassinated the United CEO.
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benreesman4 months ago
So this is what effective altruism becomes on its way to full blown Time Cube?<p>Because make no mistake, these folks with the public benefit corporations doing doomer PR around AI are very, very much a branch of this family tree.
dismalaf4 months ago
This is fascinating... Also some apparent link to SV and Ai? Reminds me of this story: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;futurism.com&#x2F;researcher-openai-sex-drug-parties" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;futurism.com&#x2F;researcher-openai-sex-drug-parties</a><p>Also both the cult founder and person who got shot in the beginning of the story are transwomen? Just started reading <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zizians.info" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zizians.info</a> ... Apparently this cult has a thing for transwomen, or influences them, or something. Lots of weirdness and I don&#x27;t have time to read it all right now.<p>All very interesting and will probably be a movie someday.
TZubiri4 months ago
&quot;Ziz believes there are two kinds of core, &quot;good&quot; and &quot;nongood&quot;. &quot;Nongood&quot; cores are the most common (about 95% of the population).&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;h242eDB84zY?si=Q2Ef9Hi1kqMFdeNP" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;h242eDB84zY?si=Q2Ef9Hi1kqMFdeNP</a>
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foldr4 months ago
A tangentially related classic from the archives: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20130426115531&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plover.net&#x2F;~bonds&#x2F;cultofbayes.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20130426115531&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plover.net...</a>
saddat4 months ago
We have a lot of names these days for mentally ill people
Bengalilol4 months ago
Is it just a sparkle in the universe, or the rise of the next movement to take Scientology’s place?<p>I bet on the sparkle and fade since everything is so self destructive.<p>Amazing read, so keenly written, on a new form of the good old « waste your brain like never » principle.
wslh4 months ago
Rephrasing Arthur C. Clarke: &quot;Any sufficiently sophisticated ideology is indistinguishable from madness&quot;.
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moolcool4 months ago
The funniest thing to me about “rationalists” and “less wrong” is the implication that other schools of thought are “irrationalist” or “more wrong”. The smugness comes before anything else.
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jrflowers4 months ago
Internet rationalists are funny because they aren’t interested in reasoning <i>well</i>, they’re all about reasoning <i>better</i>, with the implication that anything that’s been previously thought out has been thought out incorrectly. It’s a group where you can prove you have the most biggest smartest genious brain by just making shit up and it attracts people that feel an urgent need to be regarded as intelligent by strangers, which is a need that’s… generally disconnected from intelligence in any tangible way.
ipnon4 months ago
It is quite humorous to me in a dark way how the preeminent ethics movement of our times seems to spawn the most detestable behavior. How many Bentham essays and LessWrong posts do you need to read to conclude that psychological manipulation and wonton murder do not in fact contribute to the wellbeing of the world? There is a certain personality for whom rationality takes over their whole being, and they lose all their ability to feel connected to others in a profound way, and at this point their behavior is simply derived from whatever is left after they do the math.
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antonkar4 months ago
Curious how people who are supposed to be rational, have never read what is anger (or “badness” and “evilness” as some people still call it) - the best way to do it is to read any recent meta analysis on what is the most effective anger treatment. It’s cognitive therapy and it not only explains the mechanics of it: misunderstanding - worry and resulting anger (anything enforced on another without consent is anger, even if you think it’s good for them). So we actually have predictive understanding of the mechanics of “good” and “evil” - a person without or with anger management problems. “Evil” is nothing more than misunderstanding, worrying and protecting yourself (often for reasons that they invented themselves after trying to read the mind of another - something that’s impossible) - forcefully enforcing something upon another. “Good” is nothing more than trying to understand another, not fearing (because you understood another and yourself) and as a result not trying to enforce your will upon them
jonstewart4 months ago
A college roommate of mine had a joke: “what’s the difference between Ayn Rand and the tooth fairy? No one believes in the tooth fairy when they grow up.” I feel like it could be updated for Yudkowsky easily enough. I don’t want to waste my time reading all this; as a mid-40s parent living on the East coast, I feel like the appropriate response to any discussion of rationalism is “grow up.”
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jampekka4 months ago
A lot of the &quot;rationalist&quot; scene would be more accurately called &quot;rationalizationist&quot;.
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imgabe4 months ago
When you find yourself in an -ism you’ve taken a wrong turn somewhere.
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bowsamic4 months ago
They’re not only socially tiring but philosophically uninteresting
olalonde4 months ago
&gt; By the same token, the ability to dismiss an argument with a “that sounds nuts,” without needing recourse to a point-by-point rebuttal, is anathema to the rationalist project. But it’s a pretty important skill to have if you want to avoid joining cults.<p>Aka as &quot;common sense&quot;. It seems like these people make small errors in their base assumptions or reasoning. Over time, as these mistakes compound, they can lead to increasingly bizarre philosophies. Common sense might serve as a safeguard against such pitfalls, but it is frowned upon in those circles.
throw2410984 months ago
What&#x27;s so bad about this cult is all the murders.<p>However, if you bracket out all the murders for a second (a big ask), I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s anything particularly special about this cult.<p>This is just the modern incarnation of something that&#x27;s been going on for almost a hundred years in California.<p>In California there are Bohemian social scenes with a mix of high-performing technical people, spiritual&#x2F;New Age&#x2F;woo people, and &quot;human potential&quot; secular spirituality and self-improvement.<p>Magicians and Satanists involved in the founding of JPL (with a cameo from L. Ron Hubbard.) in the 1940s and 1950s. EST seminars, Esalen, UFO movements, communal yoga groups. Lesser known is the &quot;General Semantics&quot; movement (really quite similar to the Rationalists) from the 1950s. All these movements mix and overlap.<p>Mostly these social scenes are weird but harmless. But genuine cults often form in them and then spin off.<p>The Rationalists themselves are just another incarnation of this. They may seem totally bizarre, but if you just dig back in the history of California, they look very familiar. They are part of this stew of self-improvement&#x2F;spirituality&#x2F;tech&#x2F;meditation. In particular they are the secular self-improvement people -- one thing they did is run training seminars where they teach you new thought techniques that will help you be more productive and successful. Many of them also engage in Buddhist meditation practices or take psychedelic drugs for exploration. In that scene, cults form. There have been multiple other rationalist-adjacent cults, although those did not kill people thank God.<p>I think it&#x27;s a mistake to start analyzing the rationalists&#x27; beliefs about Bayesianism and expected utility and all that, to try and wonder how a cult could have possibly formed in this social scene. Nothing should be less surprising.<p>Now that this cult went on to commit multiple murders -- this is surprising and frightening. Perhaps some of the rationalist beliefs have something to do with it, but since there are a small number of other cults that have committed murders, looking at shared factors across all of them, such as charismatic psychopaths as leaders, may be a better choice.<p>Edit: upon reading to the very very bottom of the article, the author makes the exact same point. I&#x27;ll leave this up just in case others aren&#x27;t good readers either.
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greatquux4 months ago
Holy crap, you can sleep only one side of your brain?! How would anyone think of even doing this?
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nla4 months ago
Clearly there are not enough mental institutions in the United States.
boringg4 months ago
Ugh i hope this dies off as quickly as quickly as it has shown off. The less attention they get the better off we all are.
thrance4 months ago
What&#x27;s particularly scary about this cult, when compared to others, is how some of their weird ideas permeate to those in powers. Tech oligarchs speak of &quot;long-termism&quot;, &quot;accelerationism&quot;, etc. They use these concepts to undermine worker rights and justify increasing inequalities, all in a vague utilitarian perspective of future utopia.
silexia4 months ago
Another left wing journalist failing to mention the Zizians are a far left trans group.
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yencabulator4 months ago
&gt; self-knowledge, spectral sight, DRM stripping<p>So, yet another new age cult?
qrsjutsu4 months ago
once a person breaks or is broken through a specific cognitive barrier, rationalism becomes the easiest form of thinking and living. you could make it a bit harder on yourself and help your genes and synapses get back on track and your offspring evolve but you deliberately decide against it because it&#x27;s less effort to succumb to the worst version of others than think about or work on any version of yourself.<p>math, science, money, the psycho-social level, it doesn&#x27;t really matter. it&#x27;s a bit like people who just throw the towel and accept what limits them or their endeavor and people who just engineer something to solve their problem and evolve.<p>rationalists throw the towel and accept what is, despite having all the evidence that it is NOT so. throw in some statistics and they&#x27;ll take it (Quillette) as a general truth, emphasizing their understanding of the small sample, of course :D, and then they do a lot to make that truth work. that&#x27;s why rationalist thinking in science and engineering and business falls short all the time. short of contextual potential and necessity, not under some utopian or dystopian &quot;perfect conditions&quot; but in the real world.<p>they follow something allegedly perfect because striving for the next better and forever imperfect thing triggers some psychological or linguistic trauma, the resolve of which they did not put in the work into.<p>this is commonly abused by &quot;top-down&quot; for status, covetousness, control, and it&#x27;s the main sub-textual theme of therapeutic techniques and methods and everywhere in the advertisement and entertainment industry and trigger the whole reinforcement cycle as soon as they can get into the next generation of child or teen minds.<p>it&#x27;s too poofy, really, as if poofy wanted to have their own concept behind why a different kind of poofy is their real self and requires numerous surgeries and entirely different sets of hormones from somewhere else in the animal kingdom. &quot;it should cost a billion to look that good&quot;. wtf.<p>yeah, sure, there&#x27;s statistics and algorithms, and linguistics can be twisted and turned either way but any proper scrutiny of these people and their thinking usually ends up in some whiny rejection to face illusions and the mechanics behind those illusions. it works, of course, but it really does not bode all that well.<p>It&#x27;s enough to understand that if your narrative is &quot;rational&quot;, it&#x27;s about as rational as that of the Church when they fucked Jesus and some of the greatest scientists, inventors in history.<p>Rationality leads to Mafia-style thinking, buying wins and titles in competitions like the Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft and while most people don&#x27;t care because it&#x27;s just bread and games, it should bother rational people even more than anyone, because fraud breaks rational links. If A or B are complete fucking bullshit and actually unrelated to each other or their context, then A + B equals something that is not a rational result - not a result at all, actually.<p>I used to always think &quot;organic&quot; and &quot;natural&quot; evolution and development are better, but the &quot;AI&quot; industry proved that it applies to artificial evolution and progress as well. And it&#x27;s all due to Game Theory rationality and whiny grown-ups with childhood trauma or the fear that their offspring might evolve beyond their methods and lose their position in the deluded hierarchies for the sake of better ways, better living, better loving, better thinking.<p>To give even more attack surface and inspiration: if you can&#x27;t admit symbiosis is possible because you got mobbed or can&#x27;t stand losing with or without sabotage, then you will attempt to break anyone who made symbiosis happen, going so far as to burn everything down that worked and is evolving __perfectly fine, or you slowly narrow the field of possibilities to prove some &quot;self-fulfilling&quot; systems effect (over time).
morpheos1374 months ago
[flagged]
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whatshisface4 months ago
I don&#x27;t really care about whether this person is criticising the author&#x27;s moral philosophy, I care about this thing about sex crime at MIRI.
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