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Does Visual Studio rot the mind? (2005)

105 pointsby inerte2 months ago

17 comments

indigovole2 months ago
It&#x27;s a really interesting question.<p>I&#x27;m sure you could go back 40 years earlier and find programmers complaining about using FORTRAN and COBOL compilers instead writing the assembly by hand.<p>I think that the assembler-&gt;compiler transition is a better metaphor for the brain-&gt;brain+AI transition than Visual Studio&#x27;s old-hat autocomplete etc.<p>After working with Cursor for a couple of hours, I had a bunch of code that was working according to my tests, but when I integrated it, I found that Claude had inferred a completely different protocol for interacting with data structure than the rest of my code was using. Yeah, write better tests... but I then found that I did not really understand most of the code Claude had written, even though I&#x27;d approved every change on a granular level. Worked manually through an solid hour of wtf before I figured out the root cause, then Clauded my way through the fix.<p>I can picture an assembly developer having a similar experience trying to figure out why the compiler generated _this_ instead of _that_ in the decade where every byte of memory mattered.<p>Having lived through the dumb editor-&gt;IDE transition, though, I _never_ had anything like that experience of not understanding what I&#x27;d done in hours 1 and 2 at the very beginning of hour 3.
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kelseyfrog2 months ago
Absolutely it does. In the same way Socrates warned us about books, VS externalizes our memory and ability. and makes us reliant on a tool to accomplish something we have the ability to do without. This reliance goes even further to make us dependent on it as our natural ability withers from neglect.<p>I cannot put it more plainly that it incentives us to make a part of us atrophy. It would be like us giving up the ability to run a mile because our reliance on cars weakened our legs and de-conditioned us to the point of making it physically impossible.
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bluedino2 months ago
There should be an updated article, &quot;Does <i>Visual Studio Code</i> Rot the Mind?&quot;<p><i>In the old days</i>, when we set our development environments up <i>by hand</i>, you usually ended up learning quite a bit about your setup. Or you at least had to know things like what&#x27;s installed, what paths are where, blah blah.[1]<p>With Visual Studio Code being what almost everyone uses these days, everything is a click-to-install plugin. People don&#x27;t realize Python isn&#x27;t part of Visual Studio Code. The same for gcc, ssh, etc. You end up with tickets like &quot;Can&#x27;t run Python&quot;, or &quot;Can&#x27;t connect to the server&quot;, but it&#x27;s all Visual Studio Code issues.<p>[1]: And yes, I realize a lot of us didn&#x27;t know what we were doing back then, and the shotgun approach of &quot;`apt-get install foobar` fixed this for me!&quot; was a standard &#x27;solution&#x27;
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dokyun2 months ago
Seems like Visual Studio rots the mind so bad nowadays that people would rather clamor support for useless garbage like LSP in their editors, and if it can&#x27;t be supported very well it&#x27;s foremost the editor&#x27;s fault, not the fault of the crap they want to tack on to an otherwise fine product. People have been doing this with Emacs, saying Emacs is slow because its LSP implementations are slow and unresponsive, not that LSP is badly designed, or that an editor shouldn&#x27;t need an asynchronous network protocol to provide IDE features. It also demonstrates the mentality that people find it increasingly preferable to have their computing served to them on a silver platter by a third party than being able to control it locally.
inerte2 months ago
The excitement about AI and Vibe Coding made me think about this (somewhat old) article.
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ferguess_k2 months ago
I don&#x27;t think Intellisense and autocomplete bring brain-rot. AI could, because it tries to solve the problem FOR you, while intellisense and autocomplete merely help you find stuffs. These two are completely different.<p>As much as I look up to Charles Petzold, I believe one of the best qualities of an engineer is to know how to prioritize things in life. We only have limited brain power, so it&#x27;s best to use it in areas that we do care about, and keep the others to the lowest standard the customer can accept as possible. I&#x27;d argue that as long as you don&#x27;t care about memorizing class names or variable names or API details, and as long as you don&#x27;t become a slave of intellisense and auto-complete, you are perfectly fine.<p>I&#x27;d argue that this is even fine if you only use AI to bootstrap yourself or &quot;discuss&quot; with it as with a rubber duck.
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OulaX2 months ago
Wow! That page has the best styling ever! No fuff, no SPA, no colors, nothing! Just text and straight to the point!
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seltzered_2 months ago
For those trying to remember, microsoft intellisense (autocompletion within the IDE) was a big subject of debate going back to ~1999 on whether it&#x27;ll make programmers lazier or more productive.<p>Some of this stuff would be found in old slashdot discussions but it seems harder to find, im finding an old John Carmack interview as one mention: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;7828" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;7828</a><p>Here might be the original slashdot discussion of &quot;Does visual studio rot the brain?&quot; (2005) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tech.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;05&#x2F;10&#x2F;26&#x2F;1935250&#x2F;does-visual-studio-rot-the-brain" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tech.slashdot.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;05&#x2F;10&#x2F;26&#x2F;1935250&#x2F;does-visual...</a>
dang2 months ago
Related. Others?<p><i>Does Visual Studio rot the mind? (2005)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29760171">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29760171</a> - Jan 2022 (143 comments)<p><i>Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22258198">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22258198</a> - Feb 2020 (118 comments)<p><i>Does Visual Studio rot the mind?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=3386102">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=3386102</a> - Dec 2011 (2 comments)<p><i>Do modern IDEs make us dumber?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=387495">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=387495</a> - Dec 2008 (37 comments)
tra32 months ago
I see where this is going in the context of tools like Cursor. The common wisdom is that if you don&#x27;t use it, you lose it. Muscles atrophy without stimulus (regular exercise).<p>On the other hand, this seems to echo the transition from assembly -&gt; higher level languages. The complaint was that we lose the skill or the context to understand what the machine is really doing.<p>I&#x27;ve written a whole bunch of LLM-assisted code in the past few weeks so I sympathize. If I&#x27;m generous, I have a high level understanding of the generated code. If I have to troubleshoot it, I&#x27;m basically diving into an unknown code base.<p>Anyway, I&#x27;m just rambling here. More tools is better, it gives everyone an opportunity to work the way they want to.
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snovymgodym2 months ago
This was written by the author of Code:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Code:_The_Hidden_Language_of_Computer_Hardware_and_Software" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Code:_The_Hidden_Language_of_C...</a>
korse2 months ago
Required supplementary reading?!?<p>I like the verse form.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;users.cs.utah.edu&#x2F;~elb&#x2F;folklore&#x2F;mel.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;users.cs.utah.edu&#x2F;~elb&#x2F;folklore&#x2F;mel.html</a>
hooverd2 months ago
Yes. Intellisense is great for discovery and terrible for recall. I think it comes out ahead though. Why remember things when I can CTRL+SPACE and search?
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12_throw_away2 months ago
Huh, I&#x27;ve honestly never felt that autocomplete was an impediment to top-down coding like the author describes (and I also did my first few years of coding in feature-free text editors).<p>It seems like part of the problem here, is that Microsoft chose aggressive settings to force users to use their new tool as often as possible. Sounds familiar ...
rednafi2 months ago
This could be extrapolated to “does Cursor rot the mind?” Maybe. But programmers’ obsession with minutiae is a massive waste of time.<p>People try to dress it up as “attention to detail” or “caring about the craft” when it’s just unnecessary bikeshedding most of the time.<p>Hemingway didn’t need some bullshit Hemingway Writer to craft his style. Michelangelo wasn’t posting meta takes on Hacker News about the tools he used to carve David. Dante didn’t waste time blogging about the ink he used to write Inferno.<p>All this tabs vs. spaces, Vim vs. Emacs, Java vs. Go nonsense—it’s just another way people trick themselves into feeling productive. If some Gen Z dev wants to use Cursor or Vibe CoPilot to get shit done, more power to them.
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asdfman1232 months ago
This article is so well written and more relevant than ever.
immibis2 months ago
Every time I write something without an IDE - which is very often - I&#x27;m reminded how much more convenient they are. And limiting. And the limiting <i>is</i> convenient. And I feel less productive because I don&#x27;t have it.<p>Consider a typical blank IDE project (any IDE): you select File &gt; New Project, you enter a name, you create some source files according to the language and then you press &quot;compile and run&quot; or Ctrl+F5 and it runs. If I want some obscure feature, I have to go three levels deep in an options menu or maybe I just can&#x27;t have the feature at all. But if what I want is very typical (as it usually is), it&#x27;s extremely convenient.<p>Now consider a typical Makefile project (which is really a lot like compiling your project with a shell script with some optimizations). You can compile anything you like, any way you like. It&#x27;s extremely flexible. You can compile a domain-specific compiler, that you wrote, and then use that to compile the rest of your code. You can walk over all your files, extract certain comments and generate a data file to be #included into another file. You can mix and match languages. You can compile the same file several times with different options. You can compile anything any way anywhen anywhere.<p>But you can&#x27;t load it into an IDE, because the IDE has no way to represent that.<p>At best, you can load it as a &quot;makefile project&quot;, where the build process is completely opaque to the IDE, and autocomplete won&#x27;t work right because it doesn&#x27;t know all your custom -I and -D flags. If your IDE is <i>really really</i> smart, it&#x27;ll attempt to dry-run the makefile, determine the flags, and still get them wrong. If <i>your makefile</i> is really really smart, it can&#x27;t be dry-run. And it still won&#x27;t be able to see your generated header files until you build them. Nor can it syntax-highlight or autocomplete your custom DSL (obviously).<p>The design of any language or protocol involves a tradeoff: how much you can do <i>in</i> the language, versus how much you can do <i>with</i> the language. Some configuration files are simple static data. Easy to load and process, but there are no shortcuts to repeat values or generate them from a template. Other configuration files are Turing-complete. You can write the configuration concisely concise, but good luck manipulating it programmatically and saving it back to the file, without ruining it. Project files are no exception to this rule.<p>IDEs, like Visual Studio, Netbeans, Eclipse (you can tell I haven&#x27;t used IDEs a lot recently) tend to fall on the fixed-function, easy-to-manipulate end of the spectrum - although Netbeans writes and executes an Ant build file. Command-line build tools like Make, CMake, Ant, autoconf (you can tell I do not do web dev) tend to fall on the fully-flexible end of the spectrum. There are exceptions: command-line package managers like Cabal and NPM seem to provide the worst of both worlds, as I&#x27;m locked into a rigid project structure, but I don&#x27;t get autocomplete either. And then there&#x27;s Gradle which provides the worst of both worlds in the opposite way: the project structure is so flexible, but also so opaque that unless I&#x27;ve spent a year studying Gradle I&#x27;m still locked into the default - I&#x27;m the one who has to parse and modify the Turing-complete configuration that someone else wrote (and I still don&#x27;t get autocomplete). (I&#x27;m aware that Android Studio writes and executes Gradle files just like Netbeans writes and executes Ant files; the IDE&#x27;s project structure is supreme in these cases.)<p>---<p>Another thing the article talks about is that GUI designers generate ugly code. With GUI designers, the graphical design <i>is</i> the code - reading the textual code generated by a GUI designer is like reading an RTF file (formatted text) directly instead of reading it in Wordpad. Use the right tool for the job, and the job will be easier.<p>However, GUI designers suffer from the same power dilemma. If you want some type of dynamically generated GUI layout, you won&#x27;t find it in a GUI designer. You may be able to copy the code generated by the GUI designer, or edit it directly, and then you&#x27;ll be legitimately annoyed by the ugly code. And if you edit it directly and then reopen the file in the GUI designer tool, <i>it</i> will be annoyed at having to process your non-conforming code! (Looking at you, Eclipse WindowBuilder.) There&#x27;s just something fundamental here, where you can&#x27;t use the really nice and convenient tool if you want to do the complicated thing.<p>In Visual Basic (pre-.NET), there was no GUI code at all. There was just the GUI, and the code. You could refer to things in the GUI by name in the code, but they weren&#x27;t declared as fields or anything. Of course, in this case you <i>can&#x27;t</i> make a dynamic layout by using what the GUI builder generated as a template. All layouts are static - strictly how they looked on the designer&#x27;s screen.<p>---<p>Although writing pure C code in the command line is educational and more flexible and so on, it&#x27;s strictly less productive. It&#x27;s like planting a field by hand so you can see what the machine is giving you. It&#x27;s better at making you gain understanding of the process, and appreciation for the machine - both of which are very valuable - than it is at actually planting the field. (Codeless Code 122)<p>---<p>This message was delayed by the Hacker News rate limit.