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Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

336 pointsby rippeltippel2 months ago

43 comments

stego-tech2 months ago
Called it, <i>again</i>.<p>Data sovereignty is the true trend of the next decade. Not Quantum, not AI, but the new multi-pole world order divesting from Americentric technologies and back into the sort of locally-grown economies that children of the Cold War would be familiar with. Local vendors serving local needs with a focus on regional, not global, scale and service.<p>Us Cassandra types have been screaming for years that the US-centric technology catalog (from hardware to software to services to clouds) cannot be trusted long term, as just a single bad administration will expose how easily the US Government could disrupt “business as usual” or turn into a hostile state actor a la China or Russia. Welp, now we’re here.<p>Man, <i>I hate being right</i>.
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xbmcuser2 months ago
Lets see if they put cash where there mouth is they should have been pouring billions of dollars into opensource software instead of paying Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Oracle etc in the first place. Europe countries have been client states of the USA for decades and just do whatever USA wanted first time USA has hurt their own interests so are waking up to the fact.
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hsuduebc22 months ago
It always surprises me that people only act when a problem becomes undeniable, rather than preventing it in the first place. In a country with a voting system and power structure like US, where a single person can abruptly shift the entire nation&#x27;s direction, this has always been a security flaw for others. It&#x27;s the same as relying on Russian gas, people pretend the worst can&#x27;t happen because it would be harmful to everyone, right up until it does.
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bittermandel2 months ago
Finally! At least one parliament wants to invest in local technology and give the region a fair chance, rather than going with the (today) technically superior hyperscalers. There&#x27;s no discussion that e.g. Azure solves a lot of problems that EU clouds don&#x27;t solve today, but diversifying some bets to a local market will definitely pay dividends in terms of local economy and knowledge growth. I hope it pays off.
FlorisWie2 months ago
I am curious if this post will be deleted by the moderators, like the last time a discussion about European tech sovereignty was brought up on this American website.
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DaveMcMartin2 months ago
TBH, while I feel like this is the way, I’m noticing more and more politicians using this as a way to simply gather more votes with a &quot;cause US bad&quot; angle.<p>Companies are eager to get your money, so they&#x27;ll try to get an &quot;EU made&quot; label and use it as marketing as hard as they can, even if 90% of their operation happens outside the EU.<p>And the way they talk, it seems like decoupling from the US is something trivial done overnight. No, it is not, it’s a kind of a slow process in some areas, and pragmatic decisions must be made along the way.
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damnitbuilds2 months ago
Yeah, that Military-Industrial Complex thing that we hated?<p>Well, now we want one.
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dr_dshiv2 months ago
I gave a workshop yesterday on the effective use of large language models. We had participants from numerous Dutch corporations.<p>There is a lot of unmet demand for a non-American LLM. I suggested DeepSeek, but that&#x27;s Chinese. I suggested Mistral, but that&#x27;s French (joke!). I found OpenGPT-X from a European consortium, but it seems quite immature as yet. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;openGPT-X" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;huggingface.co&#x2F;openGPT-X</a><p>Perhaps there will be a European DeepSeek replica soon -- it should be quite affordable to build. But that&#x27;s just one piece of the ecosystem -- there is a need for a lot of digital infrastructure.
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egorfine2 months ago
And replace with what, more regulations?<p>Source: am a startup in the EU. The amount of bureaucracy is kafkaesque.
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janaagaard2 months ago
I really hope Europe seizes this as an opportunity to start pushing public money, public code.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;publiccode.eu&#x2F;en&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;publiccode.eu&#x2F;en&#x2F;</a>
debo_2 months ago
Related:<p>&quot;Dutch parliament calls for end to reliance on US software&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43401487">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43401487</a><p>&quot;Dutch government urged to stop using &quot;unsafe&quot; US cloud services &quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43411061">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43411061</a>
tonijn2 months ago
The Dutch government however transferred everything to Microsoft Cloud last year.
DiscourseFan2 months ago
This is practically impossible, however. The entire population of the Netherlands is only about twice the size of the entire US tech sector. That would mean dedicating half the population of the Netherlands to tech work to compete with the US. The reason why China and India are competetive is because those countries have similarly sized tech sectors as the US. A single European country cannot compete with the behemoths of today’s industry. Perhaps if the EU, as a whole, sought such sovreignty it would be possible. But that infrastructure needs to be built up and that won’t happen overnight, at least not in just 4 years.
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everfrustrated2 months ago
This would be the same country (The Netherlands) that is prohibiting construction of new data centers...<p>Really joined up thinking!
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maciejw2 months ago
Europe&#x27;s problem in this area seems to be inability to build a mechanism to realize large, unprofitable projects. It looks like the whole continent operates on thin margins, and has no resources set aside to pursue strategic initiatives.<p>US is building its pile of resources by capitalising on its current advantage, but also by pushing larger and larger parts of society into poverty. Europe is maybe more fair, but ultimately unable to keep up and very vulnerable because of that.<p>Even Russia, a country with much smaller economy is able to concentrate its resources to affect politics and develop few important techs (missiles). Of course it achieves the goal even more by expoiting its own population. Few people benefit from it, but their wealth is immense. Before 2022 whole regions of Europe catered to needs of foreign millionaires, not few homegrown ones. Lack of large projects translates to little opportunities to become rich.<p>I have no idea how Europe can build institutions to develop large projects without impoverishing lots of its citizens.
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light_triad2 months ago
Data and cloud sovereignty has been a theme in Europe for many years. Most efforts to develop European &#x27;clones&#x27; of popular US services have had mixed successes (compared to China for example).<p>Number of declared meetings with EU officials since 2014: Google (381), Airbus (318), the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (241), and Meta (235)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.euronews.com&#x2F;my-europe&#x2F;2025&#x2F;02&#x2F;24&#x2F;big-tech-banking-energy-who-are-the-biggest-spenders-on-eu-lobbying" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.euronews.com&#x2F;my-europe&#x2F;2025&#x2F;02&#x2F;24&#x2F;big-tech-banki...</a><p>The documents from Uber released a few years ago revealed a lobbying effort by some EU officials. In that context growing homegrown options will be difficult:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-62057321" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-62057321</a>
riskyingo2 months ago
I hope more countries will follow suit
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amelius2 months ago
I wonder what they will replace their MacBooks with ...
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BjoernKW2 months ago
While this might sound reasonable on the surface, here&#x27;s the thing: Not only are there hardly any homegrown options in the EU, but the EU is actively regulating against such homegrown alternatives.<p>At the same time, people regularly call for the authorities to pitch in and provide such alternatives.<p>There are numerous ridiculously expensive - and now defunct - projects (e.g., Quaero and Theseus, just to mention two of those) that have tried to achieve something to that effect already, with little - if anything - to show for.<p>Why people seem to think this is going to work this time around is beyond me.
pbiggar2 months ago
100%! Between US tech surveilling the population, selling their data to data brokers, controlling what content they see, and surveilling even their customers customers, this has to happen extremely quickly.<p>The end goal has to be that EU businesses should be able to easily ensure that their customers&#x27; data is never accessible to US companies. This is incredibly challenging at the moment due to SaaS - the amount of subprocessors that a company uses, and then transitively uses, makes it impossible at the moment imo.
ttw442 months ago
Although this isn&#x27;t foreign related, I started a regional freelance software company to help build websites or software for local government and businesses or other kinds of software&#x2F;IT help. It sucks to know that there are state funded organizations that just impede any sort of locally homegrown software development. And it made me realize that software is one of the strange fields where competition both feels like its extremely lacking or flourishing, depending on which sect your in.
spiderfarmer2 months ago
I have a goal to get rid of all US based software. I already replaced some services but I will continue to look every chance I get.<p>This is the best thing to ever happen to EU based tech companies.
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nexawave-ai2 months ago
I wonder what the implications are for AWS’s efforts in building the &quot;AWS European Sovereign Cloud&quot; in Dublin, Ireland. They are recruiting aggressively, even offering a relocation budget of up to €9,000. Although I was tempted to interview for an SDE role, I felt it would be wrong to uproot my family and relocate from the Netherlands to Ireland. And for what? A higher-paying role at a FAANG company? Still tempting, but I decided to put my family first.
stodor892 months ago
&quot;The best time to ditch tech giants was 15 years ago. The second-best time is now.&quot; -- Dutch proverb
gryzzly2 months ago
Hopefully this will also be a push for public sponsored open source &#x2F; free software dev.
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hnthrow903487652 months ago
Hopefully we&#x27;ll see non-US tech salaries increase due to its importance.
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JSR_FDED2 months ago
I love the idea of a bit of inspiration and invigoration of tech in Europe.<p>But for some reason Estonia is the only country that can execute on this, I don’t know why. The rest of Europe loves their bureaucracy too much.
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donohoe2 months ago
What’s the Google Sheets&#x2F;Excel of Europe?
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jmyeet2 months ago
This is simply the American empire in decline. Maybe with the ascendancy of China, we&#x27;ll at least get trains.<p>This is what people need to understand about the current US administration: there&#x27;s no grand plan. There&#x27;s no deep strategy. The people in charge have absolutely no idea what they&#x27;re doing. I&#x27;m not even sure if people at the top even know how tariffs work, like is the idea that foreign countries pay it just propaganda? I hope so. But do they believe it? I&#x27;m actually not sure.<p>It&#x27;s just a bunch of Ayn Rand devotees who are out to destroy the government that made their wealth possible to begin with. to try and recreate a &quot;traditional&quot; society like the 1950s, just without the 91% top marginal rate of taxation that made prosperity possible. It&#x27;s only when neoliberalism fully took hold in the 1970s did the standard of living start to decline and the wealth gap rise, just so the very wealthy can have just a little bit more wealth.<p>Gutting USAID says it all. That money mostly went to US firms, so they&#x27;ve lost that income, and the purpose was to project US soft power. Through organizations like NATO, the US used its military to get allies to do what they want and to buy US arms. Withdrawing F16 support to Ukraine, for example, completley undermines confidence in US arms.<p>The rush for US tech CEOs to kiss the ring and fall in line was always going to alienate other countries. They really are going to kill the golden goose.
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penguin_booze2 months ago
Globalization and trickle down irrigation are... wait, that should have been economics... anyway, are the worst scams of the century. Sure, there were some benefits from globalization. But consumers lost sight on the notions of self-sufficiency and sovereignty, and played nicely into capitalism&#x27;s &#x27;extend, embrace, extinguish&#x27; philosophy. In my view, the net exports from the US to the rest of the world has been negative. Therefore, in due time, the rest of the western world, or wherever there prevails some notion of democracy, should strive to excise the US out in all shapes and forms--politically, culturally, technologically, and everythingally. The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the next best time is now.<p>And, no: the irony of my writing this on a US-based platform is not lost on me!
Mvandenbergh2 months ago
I mean, ok, fine guys but this is just more empty gestures from a club of empty heads in the GroenLinks&#x2F;PvdA clown-car.<p>I don&#x27;t recall that they were against (in fact they were in favour) of the removal of the 30% tax rules intended to attract expats in, among other things, tech businesses. I don&#x27;t recall that they&#x27;ve ever done or said anything to make the country a more attractive place to start or grow a business of any kind, let alone the kind of venture capital funded technology startups that would allow us to move a substantial fraction of our tech consumption to homegrown alternatives.<p>Maybe they&#x27;re at least in favour of permitting for data centres so that we can at least host our own services... oh wait, they don&#x27;t want those either.
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rdm_blackhole2 months ago
It&#x27;s always the same song and dance.<p>We need to move away from US tech? Ok Great, where to? The European AWS or Google Cloud? Those don&#x27;t exists.<p>What about the European Stripe which is a big pillar of the new digital economy? Still no.<p>What about the payment cards? Mastercard, Visa, Amex? Where are the EU alternatives?<p>The EU is all talk and no bite. We fine US companies for breaking the law but instead of using that cash to foster innovation, we use it to hire more paper pushers in Brussels to come up with the next idiotic regulation like the bottle cap one.<p>The best time to replace US tech was 10 years ago but that did not happen and it&#x27;s not going to happen now.<p>Do you know anyone who is ready to give up their IPhone or Mac?
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ForTheKidz2 months ago
I guess it&#x27;s better than nothing.
ceva2 months ago
Nice move Ducks! :)
dist-epoch2 months ago
Makes sense to prepare for the Greenland war
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regularjack2 months ago
This is the way.
xaldir2 months ago
Big talk. Let&#x27;s see if it will survive another media cycle.
thewileyoneabout 2 months ago
Now do ASML ...
anvarik2 months ago
&gt; there will be no Dutch expertise left<p>I&#x27;m curious about the kind of existing expertise they are referring to
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kalium-xyz2 months ago
Somehow i doubt it coming from a country which could be described as a datacenter for big US tech
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schnitzelstoat2 months ago
&gt; Dutch MP Barbara Kathmann, author of four of the motions, told The Register. &quot;If we continue outsourcing all of our digital infrastructure to billionaires that would rather escape Earth by building space rockets, there will be no Dutch expertise left.&quot;<p>This kind of casual anti-technology attitude among European politicians is part of the reason we are in this mess.
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cs7022 months ago
Interesting.<p>For the government of a country like Denmark, with 1.4% the GDP and 1.7% the population of the US, the only viable way to build homegrown alternatives that avoid relying on software controlled by big US tech companies is to invest in open-source projects like GNU&#x2F;Linux.<p>Many other governments around the world are in the same position as the government of Denmark.<p>Should they decide to invest in open-source projects, the impact could be significant.
pembrook2 months ago
Just some food for thought. The percentage of GDP generated by centrally managed government spending vs. free market participants [1]:<p>- US: 35%<p>- China: 33%<p>- EU avg: 50%<p>The disparity is again similar for interstate integration (in the US) and inter-province integration (in China) vs. inter-country integration (in the EU) being the outlier.<p>Europe needs deeper inter-country integration and more decentralization of capital to private market participants (less taxation).<p>Europe can play Soviet-protectionism and build the digital-equivalent of the Lada all it wants, but the above issues are the root cause of why Europe is lagging behind the other two in terms of growth and innovation.<p>You can&#x27;t build a tech industry without venture capital and a big cohesive market to sell into, and you can&#x27;t build a venture capital industry without deep pools of decentralized, risk-tolerant private capital.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;external&#x2F;datamapper&#x2F;exp@FPP&#x2F;USA&#x2F;FRA&#x2F;JPN&#x2F;GBR&#x2F;SWE&#x2F;ESP&#x2F;ITA&#x2F;ZAF&#x2F;IND" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;external&#x2F;datamapper&#x2F;exp@FPP&#x2F;USA&#x2F;FRA&#x2F;JPN&#x2F;...</a>
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