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Why does Britain feel so poor?

186 pointsby prawnabout 1 month ago

62 comments

IndianITGuyabout 1 month ago
I run an IT consultancy and often work in both commercial buildings and private residences across the UK. When it comes to the latter—trust me, the elites (and even the upper-middle class) still have an extraordinary amount of money.<p>What’s changed is that no one cares about the public sphere anymore. You wouldn’t believe the contrast between Britain’s crumbling high streets and the lavish interiors of some of these homes. I’ve seen marble floors, $10K TVs, $100K kitchens, $150K bathrooms. Home offices decked out with $50K worth of gear. Wine cellars, indoor spas, private gyms—you name it.<p>Even on the commercial side, it’s wild. It’s not uncommon to walk into a privately-owned or government-owned building and be greeted by a $5 million art piece in the lobby. Then you start looking around and adding up the costs—“they probably spent $10K just on that fancy trim around the doorframe.” Or you notice a particularly heavy door, Google it, and realize it costs $15K per door. Then you start counting the doors—there are thousands. The rabbit hole goes deep, and the amount of wealth becomes staggering. It’s just hidden in plain sight.<p>But all of this wealth is cloistered. No one’s investing in the public-facing world. There’s a broad cultural resignation—from the elites to the average person: “Why bother fixing the outside world? Just survive the workday and retreat into your private kingdom.” The mindset has shifted toward building personal fortresses rather than shared prosperity.<p>So yes, Britain feels poor—but it’s not because the money is gone. It’s because it’s been withdrawn from the commons and buried behind closed doors.
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gchadwickabout 1 month ago
I think a key part of the &#x27;poor&#x27; feeling in day to day experience comes from councils&#x27; inability to do maintenance, things like pot holes, children&#x27;s play equipment, public toilet, general upkeep on public spaces and services like libraries. In the grand scheme of things this isn&#x27;t too expensive but it&#x27;s been cut to the bone due to way local government funding works. This is explored in the article:<p>&gt; in large part because they’re mandated to write blank cheques for social care with no support or strategy from central government. Individual cases in Central Bedfordshire are now costing up to £750,000 per year, a quarter of the entire libraries and leisure budget and an amount that is rising rapidly with no apparent ceiling. As I wrote previously, “In a single year, residential care costs for children have increased by £2,000 per child… per week,” taking the average cost for a single case from ~£200,000 to ~£300,000 per child per year, again with little explanation as to where the money is going or how this is even possible.<p>&gt; Similarly, “school transport costs have increased by over 100% - from £9m to £20m - in just 4 years” - that’s driven by an unexplained rise in the number of SEND pupils eligible for support and it amounts to roughly the same as - deep breath - the transport, roads, parking, libraries, leisure, housing benefit, public protection and safety budgets combined. Central Bedfordshire Council is not an outlier here - collectively, council overspends on SEND services are set to hit £2bn in the next year, risking further bankruptcies. Again this is not about pitting children against libraries, but asking if we seriously believe we’re addressing either of these things well?<p>Local councils have to pay the very large bills for social care and supporting SEND children but have basically little control over how it&#x27;s spent or levers to help control the bills.<p>Fixing this so councils can once again spend relative minor amounts of money improving the public realm could go a long way to improving day to day experience. Definitely some other large structural problems (see the huge costs of HS2) but it would provide a noticeable improvement in people&#x27;s lives and potentially isn&#x27;t too hard for a government willing to make some bold changes around taxation, local government funding and providing proper national strategy and funding on social care.
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gghhzzgghhzzabout 1 month ago
Everything that provides any service or assistance to normal life has been sold off and rented back to us at enormous cost, often with many of extra financial scalping included in the systems we are forced to rely on. And a percentage of the extracted wealth is used to push political and public narrative to incentivise the selling off more.<p>Local authorities are forced to sell off assets and fire direct employees, then get charged a fortune to provide basic services and child and adult social care.<p>And for contracts and outsourcing, the ownership of the contract itself is the thing that gives value, not providing the actual service. Creating a whole set of perverse incentives.<p>A council should look at a pot hole in a road as a massive opportunity. Here is a chance to provide good quality work for local people and local resources, but the opposite happens.<p>We have a whole layer of service retailers e.g. for electricity and gas and communications, who are not more than a spreadsheet speculating on long term prices, a call centre and a web site. Their entire business model being based on a) not messing up the spreadsheet calculation b) enough people being lazy and not renewing or switching their contract every year.<p>Our financial services industry has massive positive PR, seen as a net good for the country. When in reality it is focused not on basic things like providing banking and direct insurance, but in attracting our best and brightest individuals from around the country and instead of having them put their talents to something productive. Instead reward them for creating and maintaining complex systems to move wealth around, asset strip regions, hide it from tax and create a layer of gambling and financial products on top of these systems.<p>I could go on.
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Danieruabout 1 month ago
Everyone appears to agree that Britain is broken. The author recognizes that the issue is not a lack of taxes, but lack of care at where the money goes.<p>Sadly the author I think is getting distracted by specific issues. Focusing on school or social costs. Or specific large project over runs.<p>While I do not agree with him on many things, I think Dominic Cummings&#x27;s treatment of the subject digs deeper: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dominiccummings.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;q-and-a" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dominiccummings.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;q-and-a</a><p>You need to read through a ton, but it paints a picture of a government chasing newspaper headlines. And an overall ineffective method of running a country from the top down.<p>How could it be that an act of parliament is being held up by local councils? Parliament&#x27;s orders used to be the law of the land. Now it is but one of many.<p>Often treatments of British decline read as if the authors wished Britain had been fire bombed to smithereens, and benefited from the Marshel Plan. Yet this undersells the British people. They know how to build new houses. They know how to build trains. Yet Britain as a whole is still searching for that win-win. The path to fixing problems without compromises.<p>Meanwhile Britain&#x27;s managerial and governing class is so incompetent, it is hard to imagine replacements who would perform worse.
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samivabout 1 month ago
If it already hasn&#x27;t been said I&#x27;d really recommend anyone interested in this topic to checkout &quot;Gary&#x27;s Economics&quot; on YouTube.<p>Even if you don&#x27;t agree with him (and I know many don&#x27;t for various reasons..) You have to admit that he does bring a new perspective to the table and (as a layman economist) it just makes logical sense.<p>Regardless, the main stream economists have not been able to either predict the economy or improve it (for the general majority of people) and it seems that every western economy is following the same trajectory where<p><pre><code> - governments are broke and pulling back on their services to the public (health care, education etc.) - working class is broke, living pay check to paycheck barely scraping by - middle class is shrinking and financing their lives with ever increasing amounts of debt (mortgages) </code></pre> All the above then begs the question, who has all the money? Who has all the wealth?
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p0dabout 1 month ago
I am a walker and walk around most of my city, Belfast. The affluence I encounter does not seem to match the news narrative. I am concerned that I have become hard-hearted. Alternatively, I wonder if I just see the world differently to others. I have not determined how to come to a conclusion on the matter.I have lived and worked in some of the poorest regions and housing estates of the UK. If anyone has insight I would love to hear it.
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docdeekabout 1 month ago
&gt; To build a railway between Euston and Curzon Street in Birmingham, I need 8,276 consents from other public bodies, planning, transport, the Environment Agency or Natural England. They don’t care whether parliament did or didn’t approve building a railway.<p>Google suggests that line would be about 127 miles long, or about 200 kilometers. That’s one different consent form for every 25 meters of track. Mind boggling.
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jwhilesabout 1 month ago
It&#x27;s because we won&#x27;t build things. Writing from a part of zone-2 London which is full of two story detached and terraced houses.
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jmathaiabout 1 month ago
I don&#x27;t agree with everything on this channel but Gary&#x27;s Economics does a good job articulating a perspective that the lowered quality of life is directly related to growing wealth inequality.<p>Gary&#x27;s angle is mostly based on wealth being a zero sum game. I think new wealth does get created but I agree that the vast majority of wealth is existing assets and their growth probably dwarfs any net new wealth creation.<p>Some links:<p>Gary&#x27;s Economics on Youtube - whether or not you agree, he articulates his economic view: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@garyseconomics" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@garyseconomics</a><p>This podcast where Gary debates with Daniel Priestly who has opposing views. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=4yohVh4qcas" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=4yohVh4qcas</a>
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petercooperabout 1 month ago
I think about it in a naive way, but one that seems to vibe with what I see: Britain <i>is</i> rich. It has huge amounts of capital wealth, property, culture, etc. It just trails in productivity and income. It&#x27;s like a comfortable, house paid off retiree with a part time job, mostly living off accumulated wealth and prestige.
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Nursieabout 1 month ago
Because it is. Something I heard on BBC Radio 4 recently is that everywhere in Britain that&#x27;s outside of London is now poorer than any given state in the US.<p>Partly this is because of the myopic policies of the coalition and then conservative governments, which didn&#x27;t invest in growth and what seems like a blindingly obvious consequence of this is that there was then no growth.<p>&gt; Britain’s houses are cramped, ancient and in the wrong places<p>Ain&#x27;t that the truth. And actually you&#x27;re better off getting the ancient ones because they&#x27;re less cramped.<p>I think I agree quite a lot with this article, as someone now watching from overseas - something needs to be done as the state just seems to soak up ever more money for ever less benefit to the average person. Things are getting worse and more expensive over there. Time to change tack and at least have them get better if it&#x27;s going to cost more!
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potato3732842about 1 month ago
I wonder how many of these check and balance systems that were created once but have grown so big they&#x27;re now more of a ball and chain than the problem they were intended to mitigate.<p>Environmental impact assessments, engineer stamps, etc, etc, for minor projects that wind up prescribing some petty stormwater solution which adds up to more cost than if the Taj Mahal of stormwater solutions had just been fired from the hip in the general direction of the problem. Graft reducing procurement processes that have grown over time to cost more to run on an annualized basis than the graft they were intended to prevent.<p>At least if we took best guesses when implementing solutions to ancillary problems and awarded contracts based on favor trading at least we&#x27;d have the solutions and the stuff to show for it even if the solutions and stuff aren&#x27;t perfect.
Strawabout 1 month ago
See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ukfoundations.co&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ukfoundations.co&#x2F;</a><p>Similar argument to the article, but in much more depth.<p>In a nutshell, the UK has made it legally difficult to construct new housing and many forms of infrastructure- electricity plants, roads&#x2F;tunnels, railway, hospitals, etc.<p>As a result, these things take up a larger fraction of ordinary people&#x27;s budget and also limit mobility and hence productivity, resulting in poverty or effective poverty even for someone with an income that would make them globally rich.
amaiabout 1 month ago
&quot;Britain is a wealthy country, but the gap between our richest and poorest 10% is now, the US excepted, the highest in the developed world&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;commentisfree&#x2F;2024&#x2F;oct&#x2F;20&#x2F;britains-wealth-gap-is-growing-its-malign-effects-seep-into-all-aspects-of-life-its-a-national-disaster" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;commentisfree&#x2F;2024&#x2F;oct&#x2F;20&#x2F;britai...</a><p>&quot;For those born in the 1940s and 1950s, incomes would typically double from their late 20s to their early 50s. However, those born in the 1960s only saw income grow by around 50% over that period, whilst those born more recently look set to see weaker growth still as they age.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ifs.org.uk&#x2F;articles&#x2F;income-and-wealth-inequality-explained-5-charts" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ifs.org.uk&#x2F;articles&#x2F;income-and-wealth-inequality-exp...</a>
timkaabout 1 month ago
Britain was never rich in natural resources (coal was an exception, but its importance faded). Its strength always lay in:<p><pre><code> * Naval and trade dominance (a legacy of Venetian methods, transferred through the Netherlands). * Financial systems (London as the hub of insurance, lending, and later offshore banking). * Intelligence networks and manipulation (from the East India Company to MI6). * Colonial exploitation (enclosures, the Opium Wars, the Bengal famine of 1943, suppression of the Sepoy Rebellion, the exploitation of Ireland, etc.). </code></pre> This wasn’t &quot;honest&quot; wealth but the result of systemic plunder and control over global flows. And the British elite has never prioritized the well-being of its people:<p><pre><code> * Enclosures (16th–18th centuries) – Peasants driven off the land for landlord profits. * The Irish Famine (1845–1849) – Grain was exported to England while millions starved. * &quot;Divide and rule&quot; policies – From India to Northern Ireland, preventing unity among the oppressed. * Austerity – Post-2008 budget cuts </code></pre> Some may say this is in &quot;distant path&quot; but I think this is the root cause while the author focuses just on modern symptoms. The current crisis is the inevitable result of a model where wealth was built not on labor and innovation, but on exploitation and manipulation.
Tychoabout 1 month ago
It’s worth noting that<p><pre><code> - UK poverty has been falling continually for decades - UK real disposable household income (median) after housing costs is higher than ever </code></pre> Part of the reason the UK “feels” poor tbh is because people keep saying it is without justification.
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masfuerteabout 1 month ago
&gt; It’s a battle between people who think we can do both, better; and people who seriously believe that a bat tunnel is the best way to spend £120m to support wildlife, a proposition for which no compelling evidence has ever been provided.<p>Nobody believes that about the bat tunnel. HS2 designed the most expensive thing they could think of because that maximises the profit. They say Natural England approved it but why wouldn&#x27;t they? In a non-government project the contractors would negotiate with Natural England to agree on the cheapest thing that complied with the law. HS2 presented the most expensive thing and said can we do this? And they got the answer they wanted.
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NoImmatureAdHomabout 1 month ago
You have to understand, in modern Britain bureaucracy is <i>the point</i>.<p>Everybody is lazy, nothing works, and nobody is going to do anything about it because doing something would require fighting an army of bureaucrats. And, dear reader, who would blame you for not doing that?<p>I had British Telecom around to fix a wiring issue. The rental agency said they&#x27;d be coming by on Thursday or Friday and I should pick. Simultaneously, I get a text from BT that they&#x27;ll be by on Wednesday. The gent shows up Tuesday. I ALSO get a call on Friday (while I&#x27;m at work): &quot;Mate, I&#x27;m about 15 minutes away from your house...&quot;.<p>Everything is like this. Everything.
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pclmulqdqabout 1 month ago
Britain is poor. If you remove London from the equation, it&#x27;s one of the poorest countries in Europe.
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varispeedabout 1 month ago
Article misses crucial and always overlooked point. Working class have lost stake in the economy, by government changing IR35 legislation to prevent worker owned businesses from making profit. This was lobbied by big corporations who were losing talent (it was easy to start own company and offer services directly to clients) and contracts (small business could undercut them and offer better quality) and was falsely sold to the public as &quot;anti-tax avoidance&quot; measure. In an environment where working class became a captive workforce, they no longer have interest in getting better at what they do, because it will only benefit corporation they work for. They can&#x27;t use their talent in their own business, because they can&#x27;t run it. Add wage compression and the fact the government allowed big corporations to import even cheaper workforce from overseas, compounded the problem.<p>Same with public sector - we had an ecosystem of small businesses delivering services and that was destroyed. Any public sector body buying these services got fined and &quot;nudged&quot; to buy from more expensive big corporations.<p>So you get no productivity, brain drain and big corporations taking massive profits overseas, where small business would spent the money locally stimulating the economy.<p>It&#x27;s a slow car crash, nobody is paying attention to.
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tremonabout 1 month ago
From what I&#x27;ve seen, it&#x27;s because the last 20 years (at least -- I wasn&#x27;t politically conscious before then) of policy have only focused on London. The rest of the country has mostly been left to fend for itself, but have the additional burden of dealing with nation-wide policies that really only apply to single metropolis. And because Parliament over-allocates funds to London, that leaves most other municipalities to fight over funding scraps left on the table.
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nothercastleabout 1 month ago
This essay reads like a rant on the inefficiencies of government talks about direct cause problems but never tackles the big WHY.
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light_hue_1about 1 month ago
For the same reason that Americans and Canadians feel so poor. And the same reason why Trump is in office.<p>A total failure of the field of economics.<p>Just like economists insisted that the economy is doing badly because of vibes, they also insist that many people are part of the middle class based on an arbitrary threshold that isn&#x27;t what it used to be.<p>Housing, energy, and education have increased astronomically compared to 30 years ago.<p>The cost of housing doubled in 10 years in my city. All while the schools got worse and the cost of college is astronomical. The cost of childcare doubled in 10 years as well. Energy bills also doubled in just 4 years.<p>What used to be a great stable income, we&#x27;re even above the official line for what counts as middle class, is now just scraping by.<p>Being middle class used to mean that you were financially secure and could say have kids and a house. By that metric many people have fallen out of the middle class.
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diordiderotabout 1 month ago
&gt; lowest rate of investment<p>High costs of<p>1. Energy 2. Transport 3. Housing<p>Are the cause of low private and public investment.<p>The author treats the lack of public productivity growth as separate from the lack of public investment but the latter causes the former<p>Excellent piece about it here.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ukfoundations.co&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ukfoundations.co&#x2F;</a><p>TLDR: &quot;it is difficult to build almost anything, anywhere. This prevents investment, increases energy costs, and makes it harder for productive economic clusters to expand. This, in turn, lowers our productivity, incomes, and tax revenues.&quot;<p>Housing is probably the biggest culprit. More on that here.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;worksinprogress.co&#x2F;issue&#x2F;the-housing-theory-of-everything&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;worksinprogress.co&#x2F;issue&#x2F;the-housing-theory-of-every...</a>
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spaceribsabout 1 month ago
I&#x27;m a big believer that the reason for the level of government bureaucracy and busywork described in this article is not a bug, it&#x27;s a feature.<p>Government&#x27;s job within a capitalist country in a lot of ways is to ensure stability, a stable populace and stable society leads to stable markets theoretically. But what do you do if there is not enough jobs to go around to ensure that stability?<p>Simple: you just make jobs up, you make busywork up, you increase the bureaucracy to subsidize people who would otherwise be destitute and rioting on the streets. Technical innovation has driven out so many people from jobs at this point that we&#x27;re reaching a true crisis against the cultural expectation that everyone that&#x27;s &quot;useful&quot; works a job.
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incomingpainabout 1 month ago
I havent checked on UK in awhile. Lets look at it together. objective observer pov.<p>GDP growth: basically 0% for years. You&#x27;re stagnating and losing economic time. Bad news.<p>Unemployment looks to be rising but overall not terrible. Participation rate seems high, grandma and grandpa still working it seems?<p>Interest rate of 4.5% is rough. Housing is problematic.<p>Balance of trade is negative, you&#x27;re getting poorer.<p>Govt debt to gdp is up against the 100% barrier. Looking at central bank balance sheet, it does look like you just avoided bankruptcy.<p>Consumer confidence hasnt been positive in 10 years.<p>corporate tax rate of 25%? personal income tax of 45%. sales tax of 20% Yikes.<p>Seems to me the UK government is holding the economy back with far too high taxes.
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proaralystabout 1 month ago
I don&#x27;t see planning mentioned much in the article or comments. The Town and Country Planning act is a large cause of high development costs in the UK. Roads, rail, public works, nuclear power stations, onshore renewables and above all housing have all suffered significantly because getting things approved is so difficult.<p>Most other affluent nations have some form of zoning instead, which make planning much much easier. Most other affluent nations have more central control over planning too, which makes consensus over megaprojects easier to reach.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYKabout 1 month ago
Visited UK recently, wandered around south-east counties. Didn&#x27;t feel like a poor country. In poor countries, things are cheap. In UK, things are expensive, so people have money.
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Sam_Odioabout 1 month ago
Related:<p>Why Britain doesn’t build (worksinprogress.co) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36477481">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36477481</a>
cess11about 1 month ago
From the title I expected to see some mention of privatisation or foreign squatters owning real estate for credit and tax purposes rather than use or friction and waste in the NHS due to corrupt IT procurement, and things like that.<p>The proposed recommendations to Starmer et al are also very vague, at least to me, Labour insiders or public affairs consultants might have obvious context to fill them in, I don&#x27;t know.
nand_gateabout 1 month ago
Modern Britain is just a rentier economy.<p>Huge income taxes on low wages and limited wealth tax is not exactly enticing compared to welfare or moving overseas.
bell-cotabout 1 month ago
American here, <i>relatively</i> well-read. My sense is that post-1945 Britain took a sharp turn - from &quot;let&#x27;s all work together for the common good&quot; to &quot;let&#x27;s pretend that our country has a decent future...while quietly looting its not-dead-yet body for our own individual benefit&quot;.<p>Well, not quite that simplistic. And WWI was also pretty brutal for both Britain&#x27;s situation and outlook.<p>IIR, Adam Smith was <i>very</i> clear about the differences between healthy, virtuous capitalism, and the evils of maximize-how-much-the-self-serving-rich-can-squeeze-out-of-the-little-people feudalism.
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LightBug1about 1 month ago
Trickle Up Economics.<p>Sucked the life out of the middle and lower classes. A progressively weakening economy.<p>Then Brexit delivered the KO punch.<p>It&#x27;s not difficult.<p>You&#x27;re welcome.
Ladywoodabout 1 month ago
GB needs to shift some of the overheating in London to it&#x27;s second cities (Leeds, Manchester etc).<p>Young, ambitious people in London are doing fantastic in their jobs and bring so much energy into their careers but are increasingly getting nowhere in their personal lives without help from bank of mum and dad. For many I know, it&#x27;s driving increased rates of burnout and most are simply checking out of the country for the likes of Dubai&#x2F;Singapore et al. because they see no desirable alternative.<p>Those that continue to grind on in London have to choose one of the tradeoffs between getting a home within an hour of their work, getting married or starting a family. To do any of these means drastically cutting back your expenditure, and as a result local independents&#x2F; pubs etc start to close down and get replaced by your clone town shops. Planning, gentrification and other reasons also contribute to all of this, but it means grassroots in the country are just getting stamped out and it makes it hard to ever really imagine a &#x27;garage startup&#x27; in a cheap part of town being a realistic image.<p>The problem is though, that because a vast majority of the jobs, institutions and national infrastructure revolves around London, it&#x27;s hard for any other cities to rise up to provide an alternative. So you get graduates who are ambitious flocking to the city, which attracts their friends and their friends friends. This overflowing workforce attracts more companies, more industries more investment. It creates an unbreakable cycle.<p>Ultimately the only constraint that faces any city growing like this is physical space. Once that runs out you get all of the negative externalities which are driving productivity. Dislocation of community, 1hr+ commutes wasting 10hrs a week of your most productive populations time, price spikes, increased crime, loss of identity, community and culture, the commercialisation and financialisation of everything and the feeling of everything is at breaking point everyday.<p>It&#x27;s a troublesome place to be in. Your creatives and engineers don&#x27;t have the physical space to tinker with things or to mend stuff, and to hire the space is extremely cost prohibitive. So they end up getting jobs in design agencies or investment banks. They aren&#x27;t really dealing with physical things anymore and you start to lose sparks of innovation or inspiration. Everyone gets stuck in these bubbles and it impacts the rest of the country.<p>It&#x27;s a massive shame, because a good life can be found elsewhere in the UK. Those I know in Manchester earn a combined income of £70-80k, own a 4 bed semi-detached (£350k) in an increasingly popular part of the city. They have a garden and a garage where they tinker with ideas. They learned how to use tools whilst renovating their property. They know their neighbours. They get to the national parks and swim in waterfalls within an hour of their home. Their friends live in adjacent streets and mend cars, join local community groups, share an allotment etc. I&#x27;m sort of rambling, but what I&#x27;m trying to say is the lack of pressure and the space to breathe is giving them access to experiences and opportunities that a London 5 year qualified grad earning 100k living in a 2 bed high rise flat couldn&#x27;t even fathom (yet would benefit immensely from). In fact they probably pay £££ to do some basic household tasks in a controlled environment, but it&#x27;s packaged up as a boozy [insert skill like painting] social event.<p>What actually needs to happen?<p>- We need to get our most energetic, creative and inspired people into some of the emerging areas across the UK regions. We need to de-stigmatise &#x27;not moving to London does not mean you&#x27;re a failure&#x27;. We need to drive cultural change through stories, film, music etc to help people imagine what a life elsewhere might feel like. To give them the confidence to revitalise areas in the UK. This will make the move more desirable.<p>- We need to fundamentally get more jobs and opportunities into our second cities. This will make the move more financially viable.<p>- To get more jobs into cities, we need to boost populations within 30-45 minutes of the CBD so companies can actually hire for the roles they need. To do that you need to invest in intra-city transport (trams&#x2F;metros, cycle lanes, bus systems). You could also lean into hybrid more, build HS2 in full, so people can live in the North and go to the office in London twice a week within 1hr 30. You also need to regenerate old mill land thats derelict in the inner city areas, build easy to rent affordable flats so people can move to a city easier and get their bearings before buying. Make it more feasible.<p>We basically need to realise that the country is nearly 70m people, and to rely on&#x2F; only invest in just 8m in the London region to pick up the weight is always going to end badly. I truly believe London is now overheated, and the Richard Florida theory of agglomeration effects is probably now getting diminishing returns.<p>Tom Forth gets closer to the structural reasons in here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tomforth.co.uk&#x2F;whynorthenglandispoor&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tomforth.co.uk&#x2F;whynorthenglandispoor&#x2F;</a><p>The best way to get young ambitious people to give a shit about the UK again is to make them feel like they have a stake in society. That&#x27;s becoming more impossible everyday in London due to house prices (the traditional route). Get them into our next cities, founding start ups with less risk (lower costs) or joining local grad schemes with fresh energy, combined with investment into transport, get those cities productivity up and I promise Britain will turn a corner in a decade.
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fuoqiabout 1 month ago
A really great video from Tom Nicholas which discusses the same topic: &quot;How Britain Became a Poor Country&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=vry5deT8lc0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=vry5deT8lc0</a>
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zabzonkabout 1 month ago
It&#x27;s not so bad. Yes HS2 is a disaster, yes military procurement is beyond a joke (those daft aircraft carriers, and the horrible US F35s!) and other stuff. But pretty much what nonsense happens compared with other places.<p>I still like living here more than other countries I&#x27;ve lived in - friendly people, lovely countryside, NHS. But I must admit housing is, and always has been, an issue.
ChrisKnottabout 1 month ago
His examples of “feeling poor” are nothing to do with being poor and are in fact mostly signs of largesse or affluence.<p>Councils expanded the number of SEND pupils eligible for free school transport, increasing spending from £9m to £20m - how is that being poor? It’s an <i>improvement</i> in quality of life…? Ok, it might be a waste of money (or might not be) but it’s not a cut is it.<p>Being poor is like your country sends 10 athletes to the Olympics and they all get eliminated in the heats. No Western nation is actually poor. All Western nations are roughly the same, there’s nothing notable about the UK other than it is towards the richer end and is a cultural superpower.
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Aprecheabout 1 month ago
Let’s see how many comments are from Gary’s economics followers.
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bradley13about 1 month ago
Honestly, as someone who lived in Britain for a little while: it is a poor country.<p>First, there are a lot hooligans, drunks and layabouts. In recent years, add in lots of illegal migrants. Many people on social welfare, living in social housing, with either no ability or no desire to better their lot.<p>Then you have the NHS. Anecdote: one friend with severe back pain from a herniated disk waited a <i>year</i> for surgery. When she was put off again - make due with hot baths - she went out of the country and paid for it privately. That is not first-world health care.<p>The infrastructure feels like it&#x27;s crumbling. I particularly remember the rail system, because I commuted weekly by train. They claimed something like a 95% punctuality rate (&quot;excluding conditions not in their control&quot;). In the course of one year, my train arrived on-time exactly once. Not very much is under their control.<p>Being a DIY type, I was appalled at the building standards. First anecdote: Visiting a friend whose bathroom has just been professionally renovated. They had another electrical plug installed, so the electrician just strung a loose wire across the wall. Then the painter painted over it - not behind it, just over it - so if it shifted you saw the old color.<p>Second anecdote: the apartment we lived in was in an old building, and water was added later. To get the water pipe into the apartment, they had just bashed a hole in the brick wall above the front door. When we lived there, decades after this had been done, it was still exactly that: a pipe going through a hole bashed in the wall. Oh, and the wallpaper was installed upside-down.<p>All this grousing shouldn&#x27;t be taken the wrong way. Britain is a great place to visit, and I enjoyed <i>temporarily</i> living there. But for the average Brit or Scot? By Western standards, Britain is poor.
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HenryBemisabout 1 month ago
There are snakes. And there are vicious snakes. And then there is Boris Johnson.<p>It looks like (just like everywhere else in the world) the rich become waaaayy richer and the rest are taxed&#x2F;inflated to death. It&#x27;s not that a house that &#x27;was priced&#x27; at GBO 200k is 20 years ago is worth GBP 1.5m. It&#x27;s not that a house that is 20 years older than before has turned to gold and its value has grown. It is the constant devaluation of the GBP. Brexit simply accelerated an already bad situation. I still wait for Boris Johnson and his team to show us the GBP 350m per week to be redirected to the NHS.<p>I think that &quot;you will own nothing and be happy&quot; is happening in the UK already with below 35 to never own property (unless inherit it) and by then they have to sell it to have a &#x27;modern&#x27; lifestyle.
LukeB42about 1 month ago
Agitation by community-based agents leading to honest people dropping out and wicked people doubling down.
WalterBrightabout 1 month ago
Economist C. Northcote Parkinson&#x27;s 1960 book &quot;The Law and the Profits&quot; notes the decline of Britain started in the early 20th century with the rise in the bureaucratic state and the commensurate rise in taxes.
matthewmorganabout 1 month ago
Because a very few rich people are eating all the pies.
aixpertabout 1 month ago
it&#x27;s a self-isolated participant of the old world, back water of the back water so to speak
James_Kabout 1 month ago
I doubt Britain&#x27;s problems will ever really be solved. We only seem interested in making them worse. I blame the media, mostly. They&#x27;re not interested in telling people the truth as much as getting Nigel Farage on every other week to argue about immigration. The issue with news is that you can only really report on new stuff, whereas the problems we face are chronic and old. My faith is our political system is utterly crushed, and I suspect the same is true for many other people. The ground is ripe for fascism.
JohnCClarkeabout 1 month ago
It&#x27;s worth keeping in mind that the same week the government cut £5B from supporting the sick and disabled they also started selling bonds bought during QE for £100B less than they paid for them.<p>Swings and roundabouts: life expectancy for the poor will fall, but we will have another handful of billionaires.<p>TL;DR: It&#x27;s not by accident that Britain feels poor.
henry2023about 1 month ago
Only two major factors in play here:<p>- GDP Per Capita at the same level as in 2018. - Number of British Billionaires increased by 20% in the same period.<p>Markets are not zero sum until they are.
negamaxabout 1 month ago
Was it ever rich to begin with if the colonies are removed? It&#x27;s simply going back to its natural state. Although worse off because of the socialist policies that can&#x27;t be sustained
silexiaabout 1 month ago
Surprise, shocking surprise... Socialism doesn&#x27;t work? Who could have predicted it?
grumpy-de-sreabout 1 month ago
The post 1970s financialization of everything [1] is probably behind most of Britains decline. The UK was just an early adopter [2].<p>Embracing that nonsense (including rampant neoliberalism) has really rotted the backbone out of our society.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Financialization" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Financialization</a><p>2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.researchgate.net&#x2F;figure&#x2F;Evolution-of-the-GDP-share-of-finance-sector-Note-In-2010-the-finance-and-insurance_fig2_303999912" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.researchgate.net&#x2F;figure&#x2F;Evolution-of-the-GDP-sha...</a>
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buyucuabout 1 month ago
because it is increasingly poor.
cantrecallmypwdabout 1 month ago
&quot;Poor&quot; is relative, and maybe conflating relative functionality of services on one axis with economic inequality on another.<p>See also: Detroit, Rio de Janeiro, highway sides of Silicon Valley.
AtlasBarfedabout 1 month ago
It&#x27;s like the British Empire heights.<p>The peasants in England were still incredibly poor. The British Empire was the largest empire in history, and the nobility and elites sucked up all the imperial wealth.<p>Because remember, being rich isn&#x27;t about the amount of money you have, it&#x27;s about the amount of money you have more than the average person. The goal of capitalism under oligarchical control is the maximization of the gap.<p>What has made everyman&#x27;s life better has been technology. It was never capitalism and finance.
YeGoblynQueenneabout 1 month ago
Given the title of the article I thought it would start by pointing out the high rate of child poverty in the UK, relatively higher than most EU and OECD countries [1], the soaring rates of child homelessness and overall homelessness [3]. I thought it might lead with the sorry, no, the tragic, state of English railways [4,5]. Or the postcode lottery and the constant under-funding of the NHS, or its hemorrhaging of skilled workers [7,8]. The sorry, no tragic state of the nation&#x27;s teeth (!) [9,10]. The absolute forlorn misery that is the high street in most English towns [11]. The boarded up shops. The desperate people. The dysfunctional everything and everywhere.<p>But, no.<p>&gt;&gt; The big picture is pretty simple: we have a huge debt burden sucking over £100bn out of the budget every year (more than the entire education budget and nearly double the defence budget); and that would be okay-ish if the economy were growing, but it’s not.<p>No no. The economy is not growing. That&#x27;s the problem. It&#x27;s a bottom line on a spreadsheet.<p>And do you know who is responsible for all this? Well according to the author of the piece above that&#x27;s all the useless public officials and quangos (maybe we should take ... a <i>chainsaw</i> at them?) and the crazy overspending the must obviously be responsible for (or at least that seems to be the allusion in the article, though never stated directly like that).<p>Sorry but given all of the above I have very serious doubts about the article. I mean it&#x27;s clear there is an agenda here and it&#x27;s not about poverty, or not about reducing poverty anyway. It sounds more like it&#x27;s all about increasing richess, the richess of people for whom poverty doesn&#x27;t mean a trip to the local food bank, but a trip to the Greek islands in a friend&#x27;s jet because you can&#x27;t afford the fuel for your own.<p>And maybe that&#x27;s the reason why the UK is a rich country but so many of its people are poor. It&#x27;s not a matter of quantities of money, it&#x27;s a matter of distribution.<p>___________<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cpag.org.uk&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;2024-01&#x2F;CPAG-Poverty-176-poverty-in-the-uk-and-other-countries.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cpag.org.uk&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;2024-01&#x2F;CPAG-Poverty...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;newsround&#x2F;68574869" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;newsround&#x2F;68574869</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;england.shelter.org.uk&#x2F;what_we_do&#x2F;updates_insights_and_impact&#x2F;record_child_homelessness_and_soaring_rough_sleeping_figures" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;england.shelter.org.uk&#x2F;what_we_do&#x2F;updates_insights_a...</a><p>[4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theconversation.com&#x2F;rail-disruption-in-the-uk-is-so-common-that-the-economic-damage-it-causes-is-barely-noticed-but-change-is-possible-245515" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theconversation.com&#x2F;rail-disruption-in-the-uk-is-so-...</a><p>[5] Personal experience: 3 out of 5 of all train journeys during my four-hour commute would be cancelled or delayed. Fortunately I could WFH.<p>[6] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;clynvjgynp8o" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;clynvjgynp8o</a><p>[7] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lordslibrary.parliament.uk&#x2F;staff-shortages-in-the-nhs-and-social-care-sectors&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lordslibrary.parliament.uk&#x2F;staff-shortages-in-the-nh...</a><p>[8] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bmj.com&#x2F;content&#x2F;384&#x2F;bmj-2024-079474" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bmj.com&#x2F;content&#x2F;384&#x2F;bmj-2024-079474</a><p>[9] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;health-62253893" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;health-62253893</a><p>[10] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thelondoneconomic.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;hundreds-queue-around-the-block-for-nhs-dentist-appointment-368227&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thelondoneconomic.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;hundreds-queue-around...</a><p>[11] Personal experience. I live in an affluent student town by the sea but outside this affluent enclave it&#x27;s like another country and you can see why people would jump at the chance to bury the current political class and piss on their graves.
scrlkabout 1 month ago
British elites essentially gave up trying to rule after the Suez Crisis, when Britain&#x27;s ejection from the superpower club was confirmed. The country has been aimlessly bobbing around since under a general policy of &quot;managed decline&quot;, and matters have now come to a head.<p>&quot;How did you go bankrupt?&quot; &quot;Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.&quot;<p>Lee Kuan Yew commented upon it in <i>From Third World to First</i>: &quot;As Britain’s worldwide influence shrank, so did the worldview of its younger parliamentarians and ministers. Some old friends, British commanders who had fought in the last world war and had served in Singapore defending us against Sukarno’s Confrontation, compared the old generation British leaders to oak trees with wide-spreading branches and deep roots. They described their younger leaders as “bonsai oak”, recognisably oak trees, but miniaturised, because their root area had shrunk.&quot;
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MrMcCallabout 1 month ago
I think it can be best summed up in Craig Ferguson&#x27;s joke he made when chatting with Robin Williams that he liked to go to London and do to the English what they had been doing to his people (the Scots) for hundreds of years.<p>Much was made of the double rainbow that appeared when the queen died, and I say that was God saying, &quot;Things are going to be better now, now that that evil bitch is dead.&quot;<p>Maybe if the royals weren&#x27;t spending their world rapings on 13 pomeranians (or whatever), there&#x27;d be more money for the poors.<p>I do like Harry, though, he&#x27;s got enough of his awesome Mum in him to counteract his father&#x27;s evil.<p>And now King Donald is decimating America. Such is the way of kings, my friends.
jmyeetabout 1 month ago
Oh that&#x27;s easy: it&#x27;s because it&#x27;s poor. Why?<p>- Not taxing the wealthy;<p>- Austerity measures that do nothing but destroy government services; and<p>- Housing prices.<p>You see this kind of disconnect all the time. For example, in the Biden administration, people would point to how well the NASDAQ is doing to say &quot;the economy is doing great&quot;, which says nothing about the job market or living standards.<p>These economic measures really tell you nothing about wealth and income distribution.<p>House prices all over the developed world have to come down. This is arguably the biggest problem. But voters will resist that because it&#x27;s their nest egg. At this point, this only goes one of two ways: fascist police state or socialist revolution.<p>Hoarding or denying shelter or food is violence.
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alarakabout 1 month ago
All the colonialism and racism apologists coming out of the woodwork.
InDubioProRubioabout 1 month ago
feel - devalued the audience reality as subjective before it even started.
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bigyabaiabout 1 month ago
&gt; HS2 Chair Sir Jon Thompson said: “To build a railway between Euston and Curzon Street in Birmingham, I need 8,276 consents from other public bodies, planning, transport, the Environment Agency or Natural England. They don’t care whether parliament did or didn’t approve building a railway.”<p>I dunno, that strategy worked fine for Americans. Am I supposed to believe that liberal use of eminent domain will turn Britain into an overnight utopia?
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regularizationabout 1 month ago
Maintaining imperial outposts like Thiepval and Holywood in the north of Ireland, Mount Pleasant in las Islas Malvinas etc. ain&#x27;t cheap.
sixothreeabout 1 month ago
Not sure I saw the cost of housing mentioned but I can’t imagine that helps the situation being described.
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