This is an even worse intentionally created jurisdictional black hole than Guantanamo Bay.<p>Abduct someone. Move them faster than their family, friends, and legal counsel can possibly follow. Get them on a plane to El Salvador. Put them in the CECOT hole. And then say "Aw geez, they're in Salvadorian jurisdiction now, nothing we can do."<p>Yes, Abrego Garcia is a Salvadorian citizen. He also had been explicitly granted protected status to remain in the US.<p>Nothing about this process prevents its application against US citizens. The detainee is pushed through a one-way valve faster than due process can be applied. If we do not protect the rule of law for immigrants who have been granted the right to stay here, we will also lose the rule of law for citizens.
Not to be blunt, but isn't this the end of habeas corpus, if the federal government can black bag anybody they want to without a trial, and then maintain they have no ability to obey judicial orders to return them?
I want to explain something here that is of utmost importance to these developments.<p>To be a citizen, you have 8th amendment protections against "cruel and unusual" punishment. As it is, it can be fiercely debated for involuntary servitude in foreign nations as "unusual" as it is, but prisons like the El Salvador one are innately cruel and unusual, watch any media or even El Salvador's brags about its techniques and methodologies last year.<p>To be sent there - or to <i>any</i> other country to do a bid - is to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, to be subjected to such as an American citizen is unconstitutional.<p>We, as citizens, really need to take a step back and decide if we're going to do something about this tyranny - and if we'll <i>truly</i> be our brother's keepers. If a post-Heller America in 2008 couldn't even agree on trusting the government to fairly regulate a constitutional right like guns, why trust them to define “heinous” or “violent” and not yank your 8th Amendment protections, as well? Once they can call you an “exception,” they can ship you off anywhere, even to some third-world prison, and say “tough luck.” That’s the same overreach we’re supposed to be wary of in the first place.
He's been in jail for a month. If he isn't dead or seriously injured, there is a high likelihood he has had to join MS-13 or Barrio 18 (listed terrorist organizations) just to survive while locked up with hardened gang members. Which according to the DoJ would make him ineligible for withholding of removal.<p>Does anyone know if this is true? That could create a real catch-22, toss someone into a prison full of gang members, make them join a foreign terrorist organization to survive, then invalidate their withholding because they are now a terrorist.
"You're being alarmist/hyperbolic/paranoid. That could never happen here." - Everyone, to people like me, since the post-9/11 PATRIOT Act days.<p>Now that the reality is staring them in the face, suddenly folks want to know "what can we do?" Well, I'll tell you <i>exactly</i> what you can do:<p>Nothing.<p>I want to make this <i>abundantly clear</i>: you cannot undo this damage. You cannot roll back this clock. You cannot go backwards to a time before our elected leaders annihilated the global trust in American Empire, Business, and Institutions in favor of authoritarian ideals. We have had over thirty years of clear warnings about the outcomes of our policies, and <i>nobody gave a fuck</i>.<p>The Old World is Dead (<a href="https://green.spacedino.net/the-old-world-is-dead/" rel="nofollow">https://green.spacedino.net/the-old-world-is-dead/</a>), and you cannot get it back. What we can do now, is move as quickly as possible to distance ourselves from the failed American state, its authoritarian regimes, and the sycophant companies and entities that enabled it. That means ditching American media, American goods, American services, and American capital. It's going to mean ostracizing an entire country and its people, and accepting the suffering that will bring until a new country (or countries) arise from its ashes, willing to cooperate on the global stage once more.<p>The <i>only</i> bright side is that countries who open their doors to persecuted minorities from America (LGBTQ+, non-white, neurodivergent, the disabled) are likely to reap immense brain gains as a result. America has failed, but the new world order has yet to be established - so if you want your country to have a seat at the table, now is the time to hoard (ex-)American talent and integrate them into your own society.
Are the demographics of gun sales going to suddenly shift dramatically? We are evidently deep into 'tree of liberty' stuff.<p>We have been the most well-armed nation in the world for less actual material reason than most countries in the world have ever had. Not being disappeared into a concentration camp indefinitely seems like a justification for lots of people to go down fighting.
Honest question, what recourse does someone in this situation even have? Would the ICC take this case? Are there any penalties that would (in theory) apply to either country?
Four Republican Congresscritters (House of Representatives), and four Republican Senators, could announce their intent to caucus with the Democratic party from this point forward, consistent with their oath and legal obligation to support and defend the Constitution against an emerging dictatorship. And then force a vote to change the leadership of the House and the Senate.<p>It would require a simple majority vote. That's all.<p>The power of the purse can be taken back by Congress. It can reorganize the committees and resume investigations and oversight where there has been none.
This is a legitimate constitutional crisis. If the executive can just ignore the direct orders of the court and the rights of both citizens and residents by simply renditioning them to a foreign country without a trial then all of our systems and laws in place no longer matter.
Related: <a href="https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/military-contractors-prison-plan-detained-immigrants-erik-prince-00287208" rel="nofollow">https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/military-contractor...</a><p>As usual, beware of the military-industrial complex. Just like with Iraq, they will get what they want at the cost of the taxpayer. We will get nothing back but less stability.
For those that don't know, El Salvador's dicator brags about this prison having a "Zero Idle Program", or in other words, brutal slave labor.
No due process for noncitizens means no due process for citizens either. We're all now at the mercy of ICE/CBP goons. If they have a bad day, simply being a straight white dude ain't gonna save anyone.
So, HN has deleted this off the front page after about 20 minutes, and sure, they generally want to avoid "political" stories but the simple fact is that when a "political" story reaches a certain legal of magnitude it becomes the only thing of real importance. This <i>is</i> an issue of seismic importance for the tech world, or at the very least the US tech community, whether HN accepts that or not.
he wasn't deported, he was legally in the US and then randomly got kidnapped by the US Federal Government, who then paid the El Salvadorian government to him put in a super maximum security prison for no reason, indefinitely. the US government is now refusing to comply with a court order to bring him back.<p>the US media has absolutely no ability (or interest) in grappling with the reality of the situation they have helped cause.
April 19th is the next national protest. I've been going to fight for the constitution, due process, and rule of law since this all began.<p>The time isn't 2 years from now to change this at mid terms. There won't be a free place to speak or protest by then yet alone a free election system at the pace this is happening.<p>I hope others will join.
What happens when the US starts "deporting" US citizens to the custody of foreign strongmen? As is he is repeatedly saying he intends to do. Would anything change, or will it continue the same way—SCOTUS orders Trump to "facilitate" citizens' access to "due process"; foreign Trump affiliate says "no", and that's that. (?)<p>- <i>"President Trump just said he was open to sending American citizens convicted of violent crimes to President Bukele’s prison in El Salvador. Trump had a similar response when Bukele first offered to jail convicted American criminals in February. “I’m all for it,” Trump said, adding that his attorney general was studying whether the idea was legally feasible. “If it’s a homegrown criminal, I have no problem, no,” he said, adding: “I’m talking about violent people. I’m talking about really bad people.”"</i>
Trump to Bukele, 2025-04-14:<p>Trump: they demand you, they love you, they love what you do...<p>Bukele: {something about supporters}<p>Trump: you know what I want to do? Home-grown criminals are next. {louder, to his senior staff in the room} I said HOME-GROWNS are next. The home-growns. You've got to build about five more places.<p>Bukele, laughing: Yeah, that's fair! Alright.<p>{big burst of laughter from Trump's staff}<p>Trump: It's not big enough!
El Salvador means "the savior"...<p>simply put, not for him. this man did not get saved by this version of the savior... he got wrecked by El Salvador rather than saved
<i>Abrego Garcia will now die in El Salvador’s Cecot mega-prison.</i><p><a href="https://bsky.app/profile/judgeluttig.bsky.social/post/3lmsxjtwxid2z" rel="nofollow">https://bsky.app/profile/judgeluttig.bsky.social/post/3lmsxj...</a><p><i>What distinguishes a concentration camp from a prison (in the modern sense) is that it functions outside of a judicial system. The prisoners are not indicted or convicted of any crime by judicial process.</i><p><a href="https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/concentration-camps-1933-39" rel="nofollow">https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/concentrat...</a>
> You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.<p>Hilary was only wrong about two things: It's not half of his supporters it's 100% and they're not "deplorables", they're monsters.
I'm usually happy to flag news, politics. I'm happy with HN being for anything intellectually interesting, and nothing else.<p>America is being attacked from the top, Donald Trump gaining and abusing more and more personal power every day in an apparent attempt to become an autocrat, meanwhile he and the dictator of El Salvador sit in the White House and just about the ONLY power you will see these two disclaim is that they "don't have the power" to bring this guy back.<p>The ONLY thing I can see that makes this not intellectually interesting is just how sad and maddening it is. That definitely detracts from the curiosity of it all. But it's hard to imagine historians will find it remotely uninteresting.
I recall the President of El Salvador tweeting that this was being turned into what is essentially a labor camp ("zero idleness program") to pay back the costs of constructing and running CECOT.<p>Moreover, if I'm keeping track of the cases correctly, this person was specifically protected from being returned to El Salvador because of persecution. Disgusting.
Secondary to the primary horror of Trump's current attempts to apply this to citizens: It is also a direct attack on one of the other key points of societal failure, which is trust in police. Yes, yes, we were already way below where we need to be, but it was still the case that when an innocent non-black person encountered police, the <i>majority</i> of the time the feelings they might have ranged from trust to simple nervousness. An enormous caveat to law enforcement is that we trust officers with the power to order people to do things. If a cop orders me to come with them without a great explanation, I'm going to verbally protest, ask to see their badge, whatever - but I'm going to physically comply, because we agree to give cops this power, and, crucially, because there could be a legitimate reason, or an innocent mistake, and even absent that, I have a general feeling about the ceiling on the worst things that could realistically happen to me (since I'm a citizen, white, etc).<p>But now, a bright line has been crossed. Anybody in a group that Trump supporters hate has to consider that there is a non-zero chance an encounter with the wrong type of law enforcement could end with being tortured in a foreign prison. In a nation governed by fear, my mind is not nearly as clear on priorities and risk assessment when the cop asks me to come with him without a rock solid explanation. That's dangerous, for everybody, including the police.
Given that it was a "mistake" that they deported (kidnapped) him, will anyone be facing prison time for not remedying it?<p>Personally, I don't believe that he is still alive and they're just delaying matters so that they can bury that news and pin the blame on El Salvador.
for the people having trouble keeping track, this is the end of due process for everyone, including US Citizens who might imagine they're immune - even if a slightly better US government didn't want to kidnap US Citizens, if there's no process, there's no chance to demonstrate your US Citizenness before you're in a slave labour camp in South America, where the US Government will lie and say they can't get you back from even if they wanted to.
I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat it for emphasis. The administration wants the power to enact summary justice on the street: immigrants, protestors, political rivals, same as every other authoritarian regime in the last century. Currently, there is no mandate to just execute people without due process. So the lovely humanist wonks in Trump’s orbit came up with this brilliant solution. Just send undesirables to Guantanamo-Salvador and pretend nobody has the jurisdiction to bring them back. Same result.<p>In other words, when you read news like this, you should be reacting the same way as when you hear about third-world death squads lining up dissidents against the village wall and dumping their bodies in a well. The impact of the violence has been sanitized and laundered, but the net result is mostly the same.
El Salvador has 1 in 60 people in jail, up there with the worst of Stalinist Russian.<p>If the US doesn't have control over who it sends there, the crimes of Trump & his ICE are far worse, far more in violation of the constitution. If this weren't horrific monstrosity to circumvent habeas corpus maybe perhaps this wicked act could scrape through the courts.<p>Its just so fucked how much misanthropy is running the world. Hating other people is powering the growth of such deeply sick rises to power.<p>I strongly recommend a tour of the Grievances of the Declaration of Independence. Ironically a document shown to Bukele before his situation down. The things being done are absolutely wild tyrant shit. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievances_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievances_of_the_United_State...</a>
This really is the end of everything. Troops deployed domestically. Citizens blackbagged and sent to gulags for the rest of their lives with no process. There is no more law one this position is reached.