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The Awful German Language (1880)

194 pointsby nalinidash2 days ago

50 comments

rawbert2 days ago
As a developer working in a German company the question of translating some domain language items into English comes up here and there. Mostly we fail because the German compound words are so f*** precise that we are unable to find short matching English translations...unfortunately our non-native devs have to learn complex words they can&#x27;t barely pronounce :D<p>Most of the time we try to use English for technical identifiers and German for business langugage, leading to lets say &quot;interesting&quot; code, but it works for us.
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dang2 days ago
Related. Others?<p><i>The Awful German Language (1880)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27173967">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27173967</a> - May 2021 (253 comments)<p><i>The Awful German Language (1880)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18147467">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18147467</a> - Oct 2018 (311 comments)
ayrtondesozzla2 days ago
My experience couldn&#x27;t be further from this. As an English-speaker natively, French was the alien language which took yonks to get, German was 1. oh, these 5 things are pronounced like that, now you can read anything with confidence and people know what word you mean when you talk, and 2. oh, here&#x27;s maybe 15h worth of grammar to learn and now you can make sentences up to upper intermediate level, and they feel pretty intuitiive as soon as you start flipping verbs to the end sometimes. French was ten times the struggle!
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bradley132 days ago
I can certainly confirm that learning German grammar as an adult is...challenging. Even though I am now fluent, learning as an adult means that you will <i>always</i> make mistakes on the gender of nouns. There are effectively four genders (male&#x2F;neuter&#x2F;female&#x2F;plural), plus four cases (nominative&#x2F;accusative&#x2F;dative&#x2F;genetive), so you have a 4x4 table giving you a choice of 16 articles that can appear in from of a noun. Only, the 16 articles are not unique: the table contains lots of duplicates in unexpected places.<p>Of course, most Western languages have gendered nouns - English is pretty unique in that respect. That likely comes from English being born as a pidgin of French and German.<p>Verbs in German are valuable things. You collect them, hold on to them as long as you can, and then - at the end of the sentence - they all come tumbling out. The order of the nouns at the end of the sentence differs by region. In purest German, they come out in reverse order, giving you a nice, context-free grammar. In Swiss dialects, they come out in the order they were conceived, meaning that the grammar is technically context sensitive. In Austrian dialects, the order can be a mix.<p>Of course, every language has its quirks. French, for example, puts extra letters on the ends of words that you are not supposed to pronounce. Well, unless the right two words are next to each other, in which case, you pronounce the letters after all.<p>English, meanwhile, gives learners fits, because the pronunciation has nothing whatsoever to do with spelling. Consider the letters &quot;gh&quot; in this sentence (thanks ChatGPT): &quot;Though the tough man gave a sigh and a laugh at the ghost, he had a hiccough and coughed through the night by the slough, hoping to get enough rest.&quot;
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ycuser22 days ago
&quot;Tomcat&quot; is male in German, not female: Der Kater.<p>&quot;Wife&quot; is female in German, not neutral: Die Ehefrau. &quot;Weib&quot; is old language and rude to use these days.
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chilldsgn2 days ago
I absolutely love German, it is one of my favourite languages, there&#x27;s such beauty in it. I am not a native speaker, but enjoy studying it. I am a native Afrikaans speaker and I see so many similarities between the two, which I find intriguing.
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vondur1 day ago
I came across this video about this from a linguist on YouTube: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VcekIrFjwe0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VcekIrFjwe0</a> It&#x27;s a good video.
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Roombag2 days ago
Related video by RobWords &quot;Is German really &#x27;Awful&#x27;?&quot; - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VcekIrFjwe0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VcekIrFjwe0</a>
DocTomoe2 days ago
As a native German speaker: Everything Twain rants about here we attribute to French.
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ccppurcell2 days ago
As someone who studied German at school and has made serious attempts to learn Finnish and Czech, I have feelings about this. Obviously Twain was being humourous. But I took three years of German two decades ago, and to this day it is easier than Czech (I&#x27;m embarrassed to say, as I&#x27;ve lived here and tried to learn on and off for the last six years). I&#x27;m exaggerating only a bit.
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addandsubtract2 days ago
At the end of the article, Umlauts are written :u, :a, :o. I&#x27;ve never seen them presented this way. Is this some old, typewriter artifact or just a formatting error?
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ForgotMyUUID2 days ago
Ahaha, was für ein Scheißkerl! Frankly, I used this text to tease my teacher when he suggested to read something in German together.
alienchowabout 22 hours ago
As someone who had to learn German, I actually really appreciated the language being formatted quite like closure functions.&quot;I have &#x27;noun&#x27; upon which &#x27;verb&#x27;&quot; with the pronoun and verb being the parentheses where you can then do stuff like f().g().h() where you chain the returned context: &quot;Ich habe etwas getan, was mir schon immer Spaß gemacht hat und mir jedes Mal Freude bereitet, wenn ich daran denke.&quot;<p>Yes I do have a peeve about the numbering system that screws you over at the end, &quot;Ten thousand, three hundred, four and twenty.&quot; Yes I know the French numbering is even worse.<p>German just makes sense to me programmatically. Unfortunately I no longer have much of any opportunity to practise nowadays outside of online language classes.
ycuser22 days ago
Fun fact: Because of compound words it&#x27;s possible in German to create words with triple consonants like &quot;Sauerstoffflasche&quot;.
MarkusWandel2 days ago
And of course, one must mention <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=gG62zay3kck" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=gG62zay3kck</a><p>Google&#x27;s auto translated subtitles are hopeless here.
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stratocumulus01 day ago
Twain is of course being satirical here, but I can tell that many people have an overly strict approach towards language learning. They expect rigid rules and get annoyed when the language does not adhere to them, yet they do not realize that these rules came after the language and they are most often a tool to teach and analyze it. What language instruction is supposed to achieve is providing one with a foundational understanding of language, just enough that immersion learning becomes possible. Since human language is a mix of logical thinking and fuzzy pattern matching, there is no other way to learn it completely than by pattern matching itself.
maaaaattttt2 days ago
I wish I could have sent this wikipedia entry to Mark Twain. It would have been a fine addition to his &quot;museum&quot;. I&#x27;m sure he would have been thrilled to hear about it:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rindfleischetikettierungs%C3%BCberwachungsaufgaben%C3%BCbertragungsgesetz" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rind...</a>
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MarkusWandel2 days ago
I grew up in Germany but haven&#x27;t lived there for almost 45 years. I pride myself in still being fluent. And yet, this resonates.<p>Nominative--Mein gutER Freund, my good friend. Genitives--MeinES GutEN FreundES, of my good friend. Dative--MeinEM gutEN Freund, to my good friend. Accusative--MeinEN gutEN Freund, my good friend.<p>Typing German in an email or Whatsapp, sometimes I get these details wrong and sometimes (shame!) I have to try a Google Translate from English.<p>The other thing he makes fun of isn&#x27;t that strange. Splitting &quot;Abreisen&quot; for example (to depart) is natural because it&#x27;s a compound word in the first place. And more over, in the example, the admittedly funny &quot;De .... [flood of words] ... parted&quot; it&#x27;s not even one word, it&#x27;s two (reist ab). German does lend itself to gratuitous nesting of sentences, but that doesn&#x27;t mean that <i>good</i> German has to.
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mikl1 day ago
Everyone likes their mother tongue better, so does Mark Twain. No need to write a whole treatise about it.<p>Having lived 10+ years in Switzerland and having learned the language (and the local dialects), I really like German. But like many delicacies, it is an acquired taste.
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antirez1 day ago
Languages learning curve can be very funny. Phonetic regularity plays a lot in this game, for instance. French and Italian are very similar languages (more than Italian and Spanish), yet they are so phonetically apart (with Italian at the extremes of regularity and French at the extremes of complexity) that it&#x27;s complicated for Italians to learn French in the first steps: then the curve flattens a lot.<p>Italian itself is a strange beast. It is, perhaps, the most single latin language to learn for a random speaker of some other language, at least at a level where you can talk and understand decently, but it is almost impossible to master, even for Italians.
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PopAlongKid2 days ago
Twain also poked some fun at French, when he found a translation of his first successfully published story and mapped it back to English.<p>&quot;<i>The Jumping Frog: in English, then in French, and then Clawed Back into a Civilized Language Once More by Patient, Unremunerated Toil</i>&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Celebrated_Jumping_Frog_of_Calaveras_County#Translations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Celebrated_Jumping_Frog_of...</a>
simonklitj2 days ago
Robwords has a good video on this article! <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;VcekIrFjwe0?si=4rZqHqunKa3epKQP" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;VcekIrFjwe0?si=4rZqHqunKa3epKQP</a>
jancsika1 day ago
I feel like German compound nouns are just begging for ternary conditionals:<p><i>Was ist das für ein Raum?</i><p><i>Das ist mein Schläfrig?schlaf:wohnzimmer.</i>
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hoseyor2 days ago
Rather odd hatred of German considering that English is in effect a regression of German (yes, I know, that simplifies it, but it’s true), i.e., a simplification.<p>It’s a typical kind of lashing out by hubristic people who reject complexity they cannot master with vigorous anger; kind of like how a child may call math stupid out of frustration. It’s probably a symptom of the jingoistic era, especially in trust-fund-baby-country called America.
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penguin_booze2 days ago
I would outlaw noun gendering globally. Does it serve any semantic purpose? It does damn good job at making learning unnecessarily difficult.
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toolslive2 days ago
The compositional powers of German, Dutch and plenty of other languages are really amazing. People invent words on the fly and promptly forget immediately after and the listener just understands what has been said. In my Dutch native language, we had the word &quot;pausbaar&quot; (which means something like &quot;in possession of the necessary properties to become pope) coming up recently.
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ralfd2 days ago
It is interesting that after two world wars the stereotype of German was that of a hard and harsh language. I think Twain earlier take is more correct.
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p1anecrazy2 days ago
One of grading criteria for German B2 exam (mid-level in European framework) is Sprachgefühl, a feeling of (a feel for?) language. As mentioned earlier, if studying as an adult, you will probably keep making mistakes, but a lot just comes from being inside the German bubble.
culebron212 days ago
I had no troubles with the things Twain laments. You can rather quickly learn (but not internalize) the rules, which are exactly the same as in other Indo-European languages. Compound past tense as in Romance languages. Declination like in Slavic, and in Instrumental case the ending is almost the same!<p>The biggest trouble nowadays with learning German is that all textbooks are DUMB and don&#x27;t give enough practice. Basically they&#x27;re tests on steroids. This is not the way you can internalize the grammar. You may know the rules, but still unable to use them correctly when speaking or writing.<p>All the books are shiny, with lots of drawings, photos, bells and whistles, even media content over an app, etc. But, as said, none of them contains enough excercise to practice grammar. Over last 6 years that I did an effort, I&#x27;ve never seen a textbook step away from this format.<p>Teaching by Goethe Institut is equally awful: most time you excercise by inserting just one word in a sentence spellt for you. When finally you reach speaking at length and not to the given pattern, everything falls apart, and you&#x27;re told off: &quot;oh, so many mistakes, go repeat the grammar rules.&quot; (No wonder most students choose the strategy to just speak at the kindergarten level. Das Bau ist grün. Berlin ist die Haupstadt Deutschlands. Ich möchte in einem Vorstadthaus leben.)<p>Germans! Admit, you conspired together to not let us learn your precious language!
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penguin_booze2 days ago
I see German, and I&#x27;m required by the law to leave this reference: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;l3_tRPRt9x8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;l3_tRPRt9x8</a>.
5evOX5hTZ9mYa9E2 days ago
A analytic language speaker discovers synthetic&#x2F;fusional languages.
SergeAxabout 6 hours ago
My first computer-related job was manually typing a part of an extensive German-Russian dictionary into text files. I was about 15, it was around 1990, scanners were a rare thing, and OCRs weren&#x27;t a thing at all.<p>The resulting files should be space-aligned at some random column, like 30 or so, of the available 80. I still remember the translations of two words that were longer than that. One was &quot;to attack the enemy in the night while wearing a camouflage robe&quot;. The other - &quot;to descend carefully using an unreliable rope&quot;.
flomo2 days ago
Hilarious, wish I would have seen this when I was studying German.
bashkiddie2 days ago
Reading the article I guess Mark Twain never had a knowledgeable teacher. Is there anything hacker news readers would like to know about the German language?
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GuestFAUniverse2 days ago
The example with the rain is wrong. It&#x27;s either the proper &quot;wegen des Regens&quot; (Genitiv), or the new idiom &quot;wegen dem Regen&quot; (Dativ). &quot;wegen den Regen&quot; means something slightly different (more like: &quot;because of _multiple_ rainfalls&quot;)<p>There&#x27;s a whole book by Bastian Sick (famous German author) named &quot;Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod.&quot; -- the title about the Dativ being the death of the Genetiv is playing with that idiom.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;languagetool.org&#x2F;insights&#x2F;de&#x2F;beitrag&#x2F;dativ-genitiv-sein-tod&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;languagetool.org&#x2F;insights&#x2F;de&#x2F;beitrag&#x2F;dativ-genitiv-s...</a> -- it&#x27;s in German and discusses the (perceived) change of that idiom.<p>As much as I like Twain, the English language is one of the hardest European languages, when it comes to pronunciation (contrary to Italian, which sticks to a few simple rules). So, you&#x27;re welcome, choose your poison.
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krige2 days ago
As someone who&#x27;s learned a few (natural) languages over the years, German remains the only one that just instills me with a sense of dread, or maybe some sort of internal animosity. Russian? Sure. French? Yeah. English? Obviously. Japanese? Still in the kanji mines but making progress. Spanish? Sweet.<p>But German is a blood-and-tears uphill battle for me and I just can&#x27;t get over it. It&#x27;s really fascinating on some level.
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storus2 days ago
The main issue with learning German is that each grammar rule has a bunch of heavily used exceptions one needs to learn, making the language very illogical and more idiomatic. This leads to a sort of a neurosis when many native Germans are afraid to make any mistake themselves and often prefer not to speak up in order not to embarrass themselves.
Havoc2 days ago
Glad I learned it as a kid rather than adult. Seems like an absolute nightmare.<p>Though not quite chinese level
minmax20202 days ago
I would love to read &quot;The Awful English Language&quot; written in an alternative universe where Twain is German.
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carlosgg1 day ago
previous <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27173967">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27173967</a>
amelius2 days ago
German is by far the best language to swear in :)
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aqme282 days ago
I have a copy of this book in German.
msarrel1 day ago
Enjoying my schadenfreude
radiator2 days ago
<i>in a German newspaper they put their verb away over on the next page; and I have heard that sometimes after stringing along the exciting preliminaries and parentheses for a column or two, they get in a hurry and have to go to press without getting to the verb at all. Of course, then, the reader is left in a very exhausted and ignorant state.</i>
ur-whale2 days ago
This very classical piece is nothing short of admirable.<p>Really funny, very well written, and most of all, while exaggerated: all true.<p>German is laden with a ton of fairly useless and purely ornamental flourishes, it&#x27;s truly a pain to master.<p>Every step of the way, your mind is haunted by this recurring thought: &quot;why in heaven&#x27;s name would they inflict this to themselves?&quot;<p>It&#x27;s even worse than French if you count the number of genders.
metalman2 days ago
Just had some menonites come to my place to buy something last evening, and they confer amongst themselves in &quot;low&quot; german, which to my ear is much nicer sounding than the other variety. I also like the sound of Swiss speaking &quot;swiser dutch&quot;, which has a bit of sing song whistly lilt, and is apparently incomprehensable to anyone who wasn&#x27;t raised with it. A Canadian&#x2F;german farmer down the road, did make much of his income translating german to english, mostly for technical manuals of equipment, but that work hss devolved into proof reading the automated translations, the whole translation industry having quietly been taken over. Though another recent experience in a high end, high volume cabinetry shop full of exotic german equipment, revealed that technical support is done from germany, and requires muliti lingual tech support people to do voice calls.....down time on a million dollar &quot;saw&quot; running at .1mm accuracy, bieng painfull
thomassmith652 days ago
(1880)<p>Twain&#x27;s style was so accessible, it&#x27;s easy to forget this essay is almost 150 years old.
jhbadger2 days ago
Despite the offended Germans here, it is important to realize that Twain learned German well enough to perform (in German) in Germany, and was actually better known as basically the 19th-century version of a stand-up comic in America and Europe in his lifetime rather than the novelist he is remembered for now.
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wileydragonfly1 day ago
If only Mark Twain knew the noble Germans would instigate a world war that killed the likes of 70 million people. So charming.
mda2 days ago
I guess, If you consolidate all articles in German to a single one, it loses almost nothing (noun genders) and becomes easier than English to learn.
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