On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments<p>The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments<p>If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does.<p>Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a former Appler beats a shouty "enraged me so much" rebuttal by a designer at a minor UK web agency for 7 months and prior to that, a movie usher for 2 years?<p>People on HN are fond of saying things like, "I couldn't care less whether someone has a vagina or a penis, as long as they write great software". So how come Laura The Troll is getting so much attention for "telling it like it is", just because she is an "actual girl"?<p>I am an "actual girl" too and I am seriously disappointed. We were offered a 5-star meal but we pounced on a 99-cent gas station burger because it had a picture of a ripe tomato on it, so hey, it must be healthy.<p>And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does.

This is a really unfortunate treatment of a serious topic. There are valuable insights, but the signal to noise ratio is too low.<p>To be clear, I'm not launching the "I didn't like your TONE"; I'm launching the "I didn't like how you trivialized and subverted your own argument".<p>To take just the first 3 points made:<p>1. Is the objection to the inclusion of a glossary? The serious criticism is that sexism is not rape, and makes it sound alarmist, though both are power displays. But to belittle the point by a solipsistic argument ( <i>I don’t know about you but I haven’t exactly read a lot of news about rapes at web agencies lately</i> ) only fuels people who would repurpose that line to say they haven't seen sexism at their company.<p>2. Is the objection to the inclusion of research? The serious criticism is that she rejects the exclusion of several self-collected data points, even if they have not been compiled by sociologists. But to subvert the point with a general aspersion to research at large ( <i>Some research is great, but a lot of research is totally skewed to prove a point, and it’s not always easy to tell which is which</i> ) only fuels people who would repurpose that line about the point trying to be made.<p>3. The serious criticism is that he has unsubstantiated assertions ( <i>all women find a male-dominated industry “less appealing” and all-male groups less welcoming</i> ), but the trivialization that immediately follows ( <i>at the very least you need to preface them with ‘some research has found’ or ‘many women find that’</i> ) fundamentally denies the value that statistics, and empirical measurement, plays in social science.<p>It sounds like there's a kernel of something valuable, but the signal to noise ratio is too low. I'd love to re-read this after a few revisions.

There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there.<p>But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There is very little preventing young girls from getting involved with tech at a very young age except simple lack of interest.<p>Anecdotally, I remember growing up and horsing around with many friends on our 8-bit computers before any of us had 2-digit ages. As I grew up the friends and computers changed, but the basic demographic didn't. When my peer group hit puberty we would have killed a member of the peer group to get a girl involved in our group of nerds.<p>Many of my friends had sisters, none of their sisters cared the first thing about what we were doing. A few of their sisters showed some interest at times, but always seemed to have other priorities. This must be a shared experience as the type of group arrangement in the <i>Big Bang Theory</i> resonates with all of the tech industry males I know.<p>It wasn't until half-way through high-school that we finally lured a couple of girls into our group, but we spent most of the time teaching them basic computer skills than nerding out with them. Nevertheless I never heard anybody put the female members of our group down, or act like they weren't capable of eventually doing the high-nerd things that we were doing. To the person, everybody was helpful, and the girls hung around and one even tried her hand at majoring in CS...before changing majors to International Relations.<p>Happily, things have changed for the better. The number of women in tech has dramatically increased since those early days. It's not 50/50 by any stretch of the imagination. But there are actual women in tech these days doing cool things. They've self-selected to enter it and have put in the time to become good at it, and have managed to ignore the real sexism (such as it is) and that's very very cool.<p>It's an additional barrier that many males don't have to deal with, but I think self-selection at an early age is an even larger one.

I'm a young, white male, aka privileged person. I've read quite a lot about feminism (and anti-racism for that matter), and struggled to get a clear picture of when my actions are appreciated. I think the most important lesson I've learned is that I must listen; because I do not have any first hand experience.

I'm quite curious about how sexism affects the broader tech industry as a whole, as it seems to not affect my niche area much at all.<p>I work in ASIC design, and we have probably even fewer women than software development. In general, I have never had the impression that sexism is much of a problem in our narrow little field. But since I'm male, I thought that perhaps I was blind to the problem. So I asked a female colleague, and she said she had never experienced any sexism on the job, period. Now, we're a small company, and I like to think we're a pretty progressive, decent bunch, so no surprises that she's never seen it internally. But we're also a professional services company, so we work with many clients, big and small, and we don't control their hiring process. But no - she's never experienced any sort of sexual discrimination at work with clients, either.<p>I've not been able to come up with a plausible explanation of why the problem does not seem to affect us in the same way that it might in a different sub-field.

Isn't sexism like anything else? There are extreme cases, quite often though just speaking up resolves it.<p>I have a stutter and I have been in many jobs where I have been the butt of some jokes. I have been overlooked or talked over. People have played 'guess the word' when i get stuck... i could go on.<p>I find in the vast majority of cases a quiet word, a quick bit of education or just straight up shutting someone down makes such problems perminantly go away.<p>There is sexism in the tech industry, i am sure there is some racism and whatever else as well. There will always be people who intentionally or not say something that offends. Your work place experience will depend on how you react to that.<p>My experience of the tech industry has shown that it handles complaints well and deals with issues that arise in a positive way. I think this is what people should focus on.<p>I saw a documentary about a fish market where women should be good wives at home. The few women who worked there were subject to daily sexist remarks. They had a choice. Ignore it or quit... There are far worse places to work than in technology

So sexism, like any form of discrimination, doesn't just come in shocking bright red, "hey honey, why don't we go into the copy room for some hubba hubba". Rape can be a sexist act of violence, that's an extreme. Just because that extreme exists doesn't mean that less obvious forms of sexism and discrimination aren't ugly and evil.<p>A really pernicious dirty disgusting thing about sexism (and racism) is that it can be subtle, and hidden, and still hurt people. Pay rates, job discrimination, advancement are examples. Pressure to conform to a feminine ideal or be see as "bitchy" or overly aggressive.<p>So yeah, that's one bad thing. There are plenty of bad things. And sexism is bad for your business. Because discrimination doesn't just mean that some people are privileged over others. It means viewpoints, ideas, projects etc. from people who are women are not given the attention they deserve not because they are lacking, but because their source lacks testes. Discrimination doesn't just hurt women, it hurts everybody.<p>You advance a guy over a more deserving woman... you are hurting your business. sexism is suboptimal. It doesn't even have to be that obvious. You make a person feel unhappy or uncomfortable at work and the work their team is doing will suffer, if only because of the communication problems that arise.<p>Even if you aren't sexist (and it's hard to be a hundred percept free from stuff like that) sexism still informs the industry. The things you do that contribute to you being a programmer are often informed by gender roles and expectations. Math class for example.<p>Anyway, I recently came up with a test for sexism. It's a test I fail, but it makes me think. Ask yourself, is it better for something, a hobby, a sport, whatever to be manly or womanly?

I only skimmed the original article, and I think this woman makes some great point about how absurd his article is.<p>She has some good points about her experience, however, as she has only had 6 months in this field, and that is working in one company, I'd say she's not the right person to write a rebuttal to anything about the current state of it's culture.<p>Someone who has worked in multiple companies, in different regions, and at varying levels of organizations would be much more fit.<p>Again, I'm not saying her article is crap, the bulk of it is a good counterpoint, I'd just like to see someone with a bit of a broader view way in from a woman's perspective.

Interesting article, along with the comment on it.<p>As a man in the tech industry, I saw sexism quite a long time ago -- in that a coworker benefited from a pay lawsuit. But that was several decades ago.<p>I haven't seen much sexism in the industry since then, but it could be that my views are limited and the companies and teams I have worked on limited.<p>So this article felt good to see. Maybe what I think I've been seeing (or not seeing) is not far off the mark.<p>Related: could it be that after declining for decades that sexism in the population has gotten worse over time? What is with you people?

What he wrote was a primer.. describing the basics of what sexism is.. in fact in his terminology portion he pretty much breaks down what any gender equality book would break down, and he does so in a very concise manor. Also you MUST address rape culture when addressing sexism. Being dismissive of it is what leads to sexism.<p>Reminds me of that kixeye manager "Let me tell you, it's ok to make jokes about slavery because that's over."

<i>&#62; The point of this is simply to show that, unlike what the article will have you believe, it is entirely possible to be a woman in the tech industry, like your job, get on well with your colleagues (even when most of them are, shock horror, men), and be treated in a totally fair way.</i><p>I don't think any of that is contrary to the original article. I'm not sure that implying it is is entirely honest.

Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right:<p><i>The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s).</i><p>Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become totally blind to something just because you don't want to see it.<p>Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist -- not just in tech but pretty much every industry. But it's not the kind related to violence or "rape culture", but rather of pay. It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men.<p>Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy <i>she was training</i>, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights.

Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either.<p>1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women.<p>My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for &#62; 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance. Note: this is all totally anecdotal.<p>IMHO, "Imposter Syndrome" is one of the primary reasons we don't have more women in the industry, and it's reinforced heavily because of the culture of most workplaces. Why? When you emphasize a "brogrammer" and "rockstar" culture it's hard to believe that you can step in there and be just as "good as the guys."<p>When I'm talking about brogramming culture, I am not talking about silly shit like they turned the woman's bathroom to a man's one (lol, they did this at one company I worked at) or that you need to stop making fart jokes etc. I mean the idea we are all super awesome rockstars that sling amazing code and everyone else around you is shit and an idiot for not knowing something that you (and the other guys) know. When you're already feeling kind of alienated for being different, this can be really intimidating (and it's worse when people point it out -- I was asked an interview for a programming teaching position at a university BY A PROFESSOR "how will you handle it if people don't take you seriously as a female?")<p>I struggled with this for many years. I always assumed everyone around me knew more about computers (they didn't) and their code was 100% perfect (lol, it wasn't).<p>The effect for me was I was afraid to ask questions and when I wanted to figure out something, I did the research/reading on my own because I felt I had to prove that I was 110% competent - imagine how much time I could have saved and how much faster I would have progressed if in those early days I had just felt more comfortable asking people for help.<p>Because of this, I think corporate environments are an easier more comfortable place for a woman to work in a programming job than startups and small companies (again, this isn't universal). Which is sad, because I love working at a small company. And the startup space could benefit from women (since there are so few people usually in a startup, esp if you're building a product that will be widely used by women, it is invaluable to have that perspective).<p>2) What can you do about it? Well, if you're a woman, and you want to be in the tech field because you love working with computers, and you continue to pursue it, you're doing something already. You're an example to every other woman. I think only in this way, eventually the gender balance will even out. If you're a guy, and you want to hire a woman to join your technical team, emphasize the collaborative nature and how much they will learn on the job. Hire for smarts and ability to learn, not just knowing how to write a rails app in one day and knowing how to debug a deadlock with gdb etc.

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things without generalizing, so I don't think that these apply equally to all organizations, or all members of either gender, but as a population (of people and of companies), my thoughts are:<p>For one, I think that recruiting is very masculine. "Solve impossible problems! Be a rockstar! Join the most hardcore developers in the world!". It works, but I think that men find a lot more appeal in it than women do. I think that things like mentoring and career growth are also important - not that that detracts from the end result of solving really hard problems, but I think that it presents it to a more growth oriented way. So I think that especially college recruiting should still focus on the fun, hard engineering aspect of the job, it should also focus on the growth side. We'll train you, you'll work with people - we want smart people, we'll make you into an awesome developer.<p>Aggressiveness. If I want a raise, I'll go and ask for a raise. If I want something changed, I'll speak up about it. If I'm not happy with things, I'll quit and find another job. I think that this trait is more common in men, but it has certainly led to my success - pay quickly diverges with this strategy.<p>Then there's the social aspect. Within the office, I think that everyone talks with everyone else on pretty equal footing. That said, while I'd be totally comfortable asking one of my male colleagues if he wanted to grab a beer after work, I'd be at least more hesitant to do so with a female colleague so as not to make them uncomfortable (being married makes this a little bit less awkward for me) and I think that's not unique. People don't want to come off as flirting with a co-worker, or make them uncomfortable, and so they don't go out after work except in a group (and have no other recourse when they are the only female developer in a staff of 50). The people who do go out though end up talking about work, and end up solving problems that they wouldn't have otherwise. They also get more opportunity to move between projects as their friends move around within the company.<p>Then there's the awful problem of low numbers. If you meet a crummy male developer, well, he's a crummy developer. If you meet a bad female developer, she's probably a significant portion of all female developers that you've met - and so at least subconsciously, I think that for many the association becomes that female developers are bad (since hey, 33.3% of all female developers you've worked with aren't that great).<p>Those are the main things I think. I think that all of these can be fixed, but I think that it takes conscious effort on the part of the company and the staff to get around them. I think at the heart of it is a bootstrapping problem - there are too few female developers because there are too few female developers, and as that changes culturally things will get better. We can definitely speed it up though.<p>As an aside, I talked to a professor once about sexism in the computer science faculty, and he said something really interesting: while the top few students in the class are typically men due to the sheer number of people (if 90% of students are men, 10% are women, by pure statistics the top 1% will mostly be men), very rarely are women in the bottom 75% of the class. He attributed this to a lack of ego - there's a real masculine competitiveness to the computer science faculty (the goal to be "hardcore"), which women were generally excluded from. Without this ego drive, they weren't too proud to learn.

&#60;Insert experience of a single person and accept them as gospel for an entire industry&#62;<p>Also pretty ironic that the author uses sweeping generalizations to dismiss the cited article's sweeping generalizations.<p>Is this what we've regressed to? Meta-useless articles of people ranting about issues without any proactive work towards understanding, or god forbid, solutions?<p>When are people going to stop ranting about the problem and start fixing it?<p><i>clicks next story</i>

My workplace's content filter denied access to this page. Sexism is everywhere.

I think the original article touches on some good points, and I can understand the need for Laura to voice her opinion, but the author MUST have wrote the article with good intentions.<p>Personally, if I were really affected by an article I get in touch with the author, have a skype call and get all the concerns out in the open, and work together to revise the article so that both parties are happy with it. Then if the author didn't want to know etc, THEN I'd write the rebuttal.<p>I don't want to be harsh here, but Laura could have shared her input privately and together created a exceptional article with valid points and different perspectives, but instead when to route of going public and (potentially) damaging the authors name in the process.<p>We're all professionals, and can take criticisms, especially if they were voiced in a constructive way as a means to create something better. Laura's article begs the question whether her intentions are destructive, or whether her aim was to build and improve.

"Isn’t social research by its nature normally based on anecdotal evidence?"<p>No. That's the very antithesis of what social research is, by its nature.

I would say that sexism in IT is not the major issue, there will always be places where there might be some, but I frankly never encountered those and women were treated well in all the places. Point that @mdkess makes about when female dev is bad it kind of is more visible and projects more to others is also good. I worked with some exceptional girls that code like best of us. However some other roles in IT might be better for women to start, like BA and QA and project management where frankly they excel.<p>What IT or tech industry could use more is professionalism which would also help with work/life balance. I think that would bring up pay which I consider low, even though it is better then other fields. It would benefit from more women entering the field, but how to attract them is tough problem to solve.

Nice post. But I would like to hear on whether or not you disagree with the actual point that he's making.<p>Do you think rape jokes can be brushed off or should the tellers be actively censured instead?

&#62; I’ve found men to be more laid back, friendlier, and easier to talk to than women.<p>I had to stop reading there. Is this article supposed to be an example of what real sexism looks like?

My experience with women in technology matches the author's but I'll also add that I don't understand why the women in an office together are so cut-throat and brutal towards each other.<p>If you're trying to answer the question of why there are so few women in IT related roles, the best argument I've heard is that only men are stupid enough to accept the life-style often required by those positions. Sounds plausible to me.

10/2 article on dearth of women in the tech industry. It mentions a key point, in its first paragraph copied below. I agree (and I'm a woman).<p>It’s an important question: why are there so few women working in the IT and telecoms sector? It might be one of the rare times that The Guardian has actually asked an interesting question in fact. The answer is, I’m afraid, that on average men and women are different.

I don't think the original article was very good, and I'm glad Laura has had positive experiences (plenty of us guys do try to make sure its a welcoming environment for everyone). There are certainly plenty of well-meaning people out there who have subconscious biases (and plenty of assholes too) so I think at least its good that the topic is brought up occasionally.

Whoever asks questions or needs an opinnion(woman or man) must understand that first: before you begin to do so, you took a responsibility to accept what ever is being said, because you don't know the other end whos anwsering. let me ......... 1nce more.... !!!!!you don't know!!!!! there are too many variables<p>Woman or men, what ever.... there are always 2 sides of the story<p>sexism = vicious circle

This reminds me of the so-called Tiger Mother. Someone who reinforces the prevailing beliefs but claims credibility due to their status as a member of the group in situ.<p>I suspect the author is actually a male graduate student in the UK.

I would lever call a woman I interact with in a professional context a girl. That's so Mad Men. Am I the only one who considers this headline inappropriate for a posting about gender issues at work?

I actually have to wonder if "owned" ever had this much of an effect on black people as "raped" did on women when it came about in gaming slang.

On a sidenote, her food blog looks delicious.

Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.

How does such a waste of bandwidth even get 27 points? Is this site infested with feminists or what?