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A dialog on quantum gravity (2003)

65 pointsby smadaanover 12 years ago

8 comments

Steuardover 12 years ago
First, advice about arXiv.org links: for me, at least, it's nice to see a link to the main abstract page rather than directly to the full PDF. Here, that link would be <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0310077" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0310077</a><p>And second, this isn't "When physicists chat over lunch". This is "A nine year old dialog by a loop quantum gravity specialist putting words into the mouth of an imaginary string theorist." That may or may not be worth reading, but I think the context is important. [The date "2008" on the final page is some sort of typo: the arXiv time stamp on the first page makes the submission date clear.]
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jackgillover 12 years ago
I quite enjoyed this, it's a nice piece of "inside baseball" for high energy theoretical physics. For those who don't have time to read 20 pages of jargon from another specialty, here's an excerpt from the end of the paper that I think communicates the key point:<p>"I think that string theory is a wonderful theory. I have a tremendous admiration for the people that have been able to build it. Still, a theory can be awesome, and physically wrong. The history of science is full of beautiful ideas that turned out to be wrong. The awe for the math should not blind us. In spite of the tremendous mental power of the people working in it, in spite of the string revolutions and the excitement and the hype, years go by and the theory isn’t delivering physics. All the key problems remain wide open. The connection with reality becomes more and more remote. All physical predictions derived from the theory have been contradicted by the experiments. I don’t think that the old claim that string theory is such a successful quantum theory of gravity holds anymore. Today, if too many theoreticians do strings, there is the very concrete risk that all this tremendous mental power, the intelligence of a generation, is wasted following a beautiful but empty fantasy."<p>I spent a few years during my undergrad working in a high energy experiment lab, and this was a frequently debated subject. If the LHC does find supersymmetry, it will be interesting to see the impact on the current theoretical landscape.
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fharsover 12 years ago
In case you wonder who will win the argument in the end: Sal is short for Filippo Salviati, the alter ego of Galileo Galilei in his "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems", and Simp is Simplicio, the obviously stupid defender of Ptolemaic and Aristotelian science.<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Concerning_the_Two_Chief_World_Systems" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Concerning_the_Two_Chi...</a>
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borgchickover 12 years ago
1. I am feeling rather smug that I read through the entire thing, and despite understanding less than 1% of it, feel that it has in some way, opened my eyes.<p>2. I marvel at the world Sal and Simp live in. To understand all the details they are going on about must make the world truly an amazing place to exist in.<p>3. Why can't all things in this world be worked out like these two? You know, politics, war, religion, etc? Ah, I can dream...
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nickzarzyckiover 12 years ago
I know some of these words!<p>I'm surprised by how long I managed to keep reading/enjoying this despite having almost no knowledge on the subject.
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abecedariusover 12 years ago
Can anyone explain loop quantum gravity to lazy programmers with a simple, impractical Python or Haskell program computing a spectrum of amplitudes for spin networks? (Or whatever the theory actually gives you, which I'm not really clear on.) The closest I found poking around on Wikipedia was <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_foam" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_foam</a><p>(Maybe it is clear from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity</a> for someone who knows more math.)
jaequeryover 12 years ago
they should just get into web development
andrewcookeover 12 years ago
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity</a><p><i>The deep origin of the problem is the fact that gravity is geometry. When the quantum properties of gravity are not disregarded, spacetime itself becomes a quantum object, and therefore the usual logic of conventional quantum field theory, which requires the existence of a well defined classical geometry, does not work anymore. This is the starting point of LQG. A quantum theory defined without assuming a classical spacetime is called background independent. LQG is essentially a technique for studying quantum field theory when there is no spacetime background. The quantum states of the theory, labelled by spin networks, should not be thought as living inside a physical space, but rather to define physical space themselves. This is the quantum version of the main property of Einstein's general relativity, where the solutions of the theory are not gravitational field living inside a spacetime, but are themselves defining spacetime.</i><p><i>The theory of LQG is one of the possible solutions of the problem of quantum gravity, along with string theory. There are substantial differences, however, with string theory. String theory addresses also another major open problem in fundamental physics besides quantum gravity: the problem of unification, namely understanding all known forces and particles as manifestations of a single entity. To this aim, string theory postulates the existence of extra dimensions and so-far unobserved particles and symmetries. LQG, on the contrary, is based only on quantum theory and general relativity and its scope is limited to understanding the quantum aspects of the gravitational interaction. On the other hand, the consequences of LQG are radical, because they change in depth our understanding of the nature of space and time and provide a tentative but detailed physical and mathematical picture of quantum spacetime.</i><p>my very rough take on that, and the linked paper, is that string theory is a huge artifice, that tries to cover everything, "starting" in a sense, with "generalising" quantum mechanics into something very abstract that can then be used to "pull in" relativity. in contrast, loop theory goes back to the geometric basics of relativity and tries to reconstruct those in a way that would be consistent with quantum mechanics, in the hope that rebuilding relativity on that will allow quantum mechanics to be pulled in naturally.<p>so they have very different styles. string theory is trying to do everything, and is getting top-heavy. loop theory is a "back to basics" that is trying to re-do relativity in the hope that qm can then be connected back on (perhaps still with pieces of string theory, to make the qm more elegant).<p>i have no idea what the current take on all this is, though - the paper linked here seems to be from back in 2003. <a href="https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=string%20theory%2C%20loop%20theory&#38;cmpt=q" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=string%20theory%2C%2...</a> - it looks like loop theory may have stalled?<p>evidence of current interest - <a href="http://phys.org/news/2012-01-physicists-loop-quantum-gravity.html" rel="nofollow">http://phys.org/news/2012-01-physicists-loop-quantum-gravity...</a> (sounds like the kind of thing that atomic optics or whatever it is called could help with - i think there was a link here recently showing how those might improve gravitational wave detection).