The only logical conclusion that can be made from eBay's and Paypal's policies is that they no longer want small sellers to use them. They want professional sellers to sell from their site, people who are used to dealing with chargebacks, etc, and can foot the bill when it comes to chargebacks/fraud. They want to facilitate BUYING from regular people, but make SELLING by regular people very difficult.<p>There is no other explanation for getting rid of buyer reputation and providing no protection to sellers. They only want people who don't care about buyer reputation, and have deep enough pockets and the expectation that chargebacks and fraud will occur. If they deal with these larger customers, this increases their selling volume (and fees) and decreases their support costs.
I stopped selling things like this on eBay a long time ago because I do not sell things frequently enough to keep up with the scams du jour.<p>My local craigslist is where my for-sale items now go. Sure, I may get a little less than top-dollar for an item, or it might take a little longer to sell, but I'm never left with some after-the-fact dispute where I have no control (note: I'll only accept cash).<p>eBay was fun while it lasted, but then it became a giant flea market with basically semi-pro retailers looking to sell things, and a whole bunch of random scammers. Intermixed in all that was the occasional legitimate "amateur" seller.<p>For the very few times I've purchased something on Ebay in the last few years, it's always been from "pro" sellers with storefront type setups. The hassles of dealing with amateurs selling poorly described items, taking too long to ship, etc. was also not worth the "deal" I was getting.<p>A true "amateur to amateur" auction type sales website is an area begging for competition...
OP here.
Interestingly enough, my conversations with Paypal became more and more surreal and I felt more and more powerless with every one in the end.
I had a trail of information and there was evidence of multiple fraud, but I never felt as powerless as I did after my phone calls with Paypal.<p>I am in contact with the police captain in the small town where the item was shipped, but I have very little faith in their ability to recover it.<p>I will file a local police report as well and try to appeal with paypal.<p>Meanwhile i want everyone to be aware that the so-called Seller Protection is totally worthless, since thats how Paypal chooses to pursue a legit fraud case.
That's a variant of one of the oldest scams in the book on EBay. Removing seller feedback actually fixed the issue, at least for buyers.<p>Back in the day, the formula for an EBay sell-side scammer was to:<p>1 - Setup a phony account, or network of accounts.<p>2 - start selling small value things to each other. (Postcards, keychains, digital pictures, etc) Leave positive feedback, including nonsensical feedback (ie. My laptop works great, A++++ for a $0.99 recipie).<p>3 - Wait a few months for the active links to the auctions to be de-activated by EBay<p>4 - Start selling a dozen high-value items like laptops. Ship nothing or empty boxes.<p>5 - Withdraw funds asap.<p>Now the same scheme works, but only in reverse for high-value items that have immediate cash value.<p>Solution: Never use EBay for anything.
Since you shipped via USPS, the buyer has committed mail fraud. Call the US Postal Inspection Service, they are federal agents with no jurisdiction issues as the local police will have.<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Inspection_Service" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Inspection...</a><p>Edit: USPIS Wikipedia link
A few years ago I sold an Android phone on eBay. A scammer bought it, claimed it was broken, and filed a claim with PayPal. The guy sent me back a <i>different phone</i> of the same model that was indeed quite broken. I appealed to PayPal and lost. I got screwed in this case, but frankly I'm not sure what PayPal/eBay is supposed to do about this sort of scam. Dude even swapped the sticker with the serial number from inside the case.
The Paypal dispute system is a joke. I had a simliar experience with a $300 laptop. The condition it came in was NOT as described. I tried to get the seller to refund, but he just ignored my messages. Unable to contact the seller, I opened a dispute case and I took photos, documented the entire thing, and even did the dispute message system (and the seller didn't respond once to my complaints within the dispute system).<p>After 3? weeks of no response, I clicked escalate button to firm up the dispute and push it to Paypal so they could decide. I thought I had a clear cut case -- photos, documentation, 21 days of seller not even trying to defend himself.<p>Seller, upon getting the final warning, finally replied with a message along the lines of "I offered a refund but buyer never contacted me" with no proof... and Paypal voted in his favor.<p>Fuck Paypal.
> " If youre thinking of selling an expensive item on eBay, think again. "<p>I would say, this type of fraud is exclusively targeted at cellphones, ipods, netbooks etc. If you're selling something like an antique grandfather clock, you should be fine. Of course anything that requires collection, or couriering is going to be more traceable and secure.<p>I have sold hundreds or maybe thousands of items on eBay. The only one I ever had a problem with was trying to sell an old iPod. As soon as it was listed the scamming started by fraudsters.
Unfortunately, buyer protection is just as bad!<p>I recently bought an item on Ebay from an Ebay shop in China and paid extra for EMS shipping because I needed it fairly quickly (less than 2 weeks). The seller sent using a non-EMS method that barely got to my door in time, and it was the wrong item completely! When escalated to Ebay, they would only refund the item and original shipping fee and only if I sent back the item and paid for my own shipping to send it back.<p>I later learned that the seller was out of stock for the item, and figure that they must have sent the wrong item purposefully (since you're not supposed to be selling something you don't actually have).<p>But there's no way to actually contact Ebay support, so there was nothing I could do. Really going to avoid Ebay from now on because of that poor experience. No protection on any side.
This would only work in major cities, but I always thought there was a business in having a physical escrow service aimed specifically at selling small, high-value items. You sell an item online, deposit it with the company (who takes a small cut; you could even mail it to them), who then pass it on to the buyer when payment is confirmed. The company can confirm it's in working order, and take some photographs for proof.<p>Much more pleasant for both buyer and seller. No more news stories of people getting mugged after an online ad, no more scammy eBay purchasers, the lot.
I'd recommend contacting all the carriers that this phone is compatible with, and tell them that the phone has been stolen. Give them the IMEI number, serial number and whatever else.<p>If you can get law enforcement interested in the case (highly unlikely, but who knows), they should be able to issue a search warrant, and get the location of the phone from the carrier. If they can track it down to a residential address, then they may be able to find the actual person.<p>It would be helpful if the other sellers also had remotely trackable items. Regardless, you'll want to be coordinating with them on the item descriptions.
Meanwhile, as a purchaser on Paypal, you only get 45 days after the day of the transaction - which caught us out last week.<p>We ordered some stuff from (at least theoretically) a reputable company. We had to pay about 2 months ago, but kept getting emails telling us that the stock hadn't arrived yet and to just be patient. Then a couple of weeks ago, they told us that they actualy didn't have the stock and that we'd have to get a refund. But they were refusing to respond to any of our requests for the refund, so we contacted Paypal and they told us that we'd missed out on the 45 day window and they couldn't help us.<p>The company we ordered from eventually (after over a week of chasing) paid up, but if they hadn't we would have been left high and dry by Paypal.
I don't have much sympathy for this seller.<p>- General Delivery is a big red flag, paypal confirmed or no.<p>- You should check buyer feedback in advance, not afterwards.<p>- don't leave feedback until you have the cash in your own bank account.<p>- For expensive items, don't just get signature confirmation, pay the extra few $ for insurance. I insure anything over $50, for two reasons: you can claim against the insurance if the buyer alleges the goods are damaged/missing, and if the buyer is scamming then the insurance means they're trying to commit fraud against the carrier, who are more likely to prosecute it aggressively. This is also why I prefer to ship via the post office. Sorry, but if you shipped an $850 item without insuring the shipment, you're foolish.
Note, I think PayPal are in many cases some sly devils doing some nasty things, in this case it sounds like they went to bat, had the credit companies say 'nope' and that's that. Credit card companies will usually go in the favour of the buyer, because technically the buyer is them. This is an odd, and bizarre situation, but its why you always should buy fancy items on credit cards, as the credit companies don't like their money being mucked about with. The situation is heavily broken though, scammers on every side, the only option becomes taking legal action and that's very much a minefield.
Stop using eBay and Paypal.<p>If you look, you can find stories like this every week since about 1999. This sort of behavior isn't new yet eBay continues to grow.
I've been scammed selling on eBay and will probably never sell there again, but if I did I'd want a cheat sheet of scam countermeasures. Here's a start based on the OP's safety checklist (points 3 through 5), comments in this thread, and my own experience.<p><i>1) Try not to sell on eBay.</i> Perhaps Craigslist or another marketplace will work instead. Unfortunately, people in low population density areas are kind of screwed without an online marketplace.<p><i>2) Block all buyers from countries other than your own.</i> In massive markets like the US, gaining a few more potential buyers is not worth the increased risk of fraud or loss during shipment. Perhaps in smaller countries this rule won't work as well.<p><i>3) Only sell to people with significant positive feedback.</i><p><i>4) Only ship to CONFIRMED Paypal addresses.</i><p><i>5) Require Signature Confirmation for items over $250.</i><p><i>6) Don't accept PayPal; require money orders for payment.</i> This might scare off potential buyers. However, it has the benefit of taking PayPal and credit card chargeback schemes completely off the table.<p><i>7) Don't ship General Delivery.</i>
Have you called an attorney? If you have one that you're on any kind of friendly basis, I've generally found that you can get a quick read on your case (30 minutes' worth of time) without any cost.<p>IANAL -- first and foremost -- but I would think the best tactic may be to go after PayPal to get them to discharge your supposed debt to them, given that you've already swept the money out. Their seller's assurance contract terms would seem to be vague around what is required for the item to be determined "not as received" -- also, as you mention, there is a a pattern on behalf of the seller -- is EBay/Paypal acting dilligently to protect your interest in return for your seller's fees and auction fees?
I tried to sell an expensive camera through eBay and after a month I gave up. Twice the auction completed and the person that won tried to scam me. I decided to go the Craigslist route and sold it in a few days to someone that I met at a local bank and we were both happy.<p>eBay were not very good, in my case, either. I spent hours on the phone. It was clear that the person that won the auction bid up to insure they won it. I'm pretty certain I had legit buyers at lower bids, and I would have been happy to sell at those bids. The reason I even tried a second time was that I didn't know about the ability to exclude certain buyers. For the second auction I tweaked all the knobs that massively restricted the auction to only the safest buyers. I don't know what happened, but someone with an account that was a few hours old won the auction. I think it was the same person that won it the first time. I called eBay again and they voided the auction after a few days.<p>It was a really horrible experience and I'll never use eBay to sell anything ever again.
just an FYI, guys. Due to virality of this post and the waves of support on twitter, I got phone calls from both paypal executive offices and ebay's fraud teams that not only did resolve my issues, but also hinted at a serious effort at apprehending this fraudulent individual.<p>Its very unfortunate that it took this community outcry to get this far. Im currently working on a "post-mortem" overview of my what happened in the past few days resolution-wise and ill post it on my blog.<p>Tech-wise, its pretty amazing how much load a static octopress-based blog hosted for free on github pages would handle.<p>Also im pretty glad I chose to host the pictures on picasaweb. Hosting them on S3 would turn out pretty pricey :)
Paypal is the most fraudulent company that I've done business with. There for I never sell anything anymore using it, purchase is ok but also risky. A friend of mine purchased an engine part on ebay but received a brick insted. Paypal then refused to give the money back because he had signed it out.<p>In total I've lost 1000's of dollars due to Paypal just handing it back to the fraudster. It doesn't matter what you say or what evidence you got. Me personally have never won a paypal dispute as a mercher.<p>My recommendation to other people, I know its a loss of customers but LibertyReserve, bitcoins or old fashion bankwire is as safe as it gets.
I actually wrote about this 6 years ago when eBay first started leaning their policy towards protecting buyers at the expense of the sellers. I went from selling things on eBay regularly to never using them for anything. Especially an iPhone or any new "hot" item you will be inundated with scam bids. And as an additional slap in the face you can't even give a buyer negative feedback anymore so what's even the point of feedback? It reminds me of when the post office, in response to long lines, resolved the problem by removing all clocks.<p>I know this was in reaction to scammers placing fake auctions but eBay basically threw out the baby with the bathwater with their buyer protection policies. The scammers just moved to the buyer side where they enjoy lopsided protection.<p>This is my post from 2006 - a variation of the scam, but the seller protection is equally non-existant:
<a href="http://verysimple.com/2006/08/13/ebay-laptop-scammers-part-ii/" rel="nofollow">http://verysimple.com/2006/08/13/ebay-laptop-scammers-part-i...</a>
Don't know if they're any good but the Economist just wrote up EcoATM (<a href="http://www.ecoatm.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ecoatm.com/</a>) which lets you sell used phones at kiosks. You show up with your used phone and put it into the machine, which can apparently verify its make/model and condition, and lets a network of buyers instantly bid on it. If you choose to sell, the kiosk keeps your phone and you leave with cash.
I sell things very rarely on eBay - recently I got an old Laptop at a garage sale that I realized I had no use for and went ahead and sold it.<p>Thankfully everything went well (I think the period for chargebacks has expired), but I had this awful feeling for a long time after the auction that something dodgy would happen. Every time I sell, I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette.<p>Like a lot of the other commenters, I'm not sure why more hasn't been done to help the sellers out. Shouldn't it be clear that it's a scam if a buyer does a CC chargeback, given that it's easy enough to file with Paypal? Also, wouldn't giving sellers the option to only accept payment via a bank account help?
It sucks to be among the most gullible 1% of buyers or sellers in a marketplace, weighted by sales volume.<p>In first-world markets, overall fraud is around 1%. But since experienced buyers and sellers learn to avoid it, the least experienced ones absorb most of the losses.<p>Whether you're in the most gullible 1% depends on who else you're competing with. For example, if you're selling a used car, you have to be fairly dumb to be in the most gullible 1% since lots of regular people do the same.<p>But the vast majority of iPhones on eBay are sold by sophisticated, professional, full-time merchants. So unless you have inside knowledge, you probably are in the most gullible 1% of iPhone sellers on eBay.
I'm stuck with $680 in chargebacks on paypal.<p>One gamer used a bank account to deposit funds into his account. 2-3 months later, he uses that same bank account, then files a chargeback for $680.<p>Even though he'd used that same bank account months earlier, on the same site without filing a chargeback somehow this time around he won the chargeback dispute.<p>I have no idea how that is common sense possible
I would have expected David Marcus (PayPal CEO) to chime in by now but apparently not.<p>Counterparty risk is definitely a hard problem to solve but this situation seems easy to solve: if the buyer is complaining "not as described", there should need to be some sort of attempt to return the item (at seller's expense or split).
The absolute, 100% way to solve this is to let sellers decide who can bid/buy on their items. If I can say "Only users who have been on ebay X months/years with Y feedback" that is such a major awesomeness. It also puts the control back in my hands. Maybe I dont get as much money when I sell a item, but I have way less risk of getting fucked.<p>Also, it would not stop new ebayers from being able to buy things. eBay could 'eat the risk' or make them guarantee if a seller set up his auction that way.
While I'm sure that there are probably thousands, if not tens-of- and hundres-of, perfectly happy and valid sales of high-value electronics on eBay every day using Paypal, I would rather give something like that away as a Christmas present than try to sell it on eBay.
This seems like a credit card/bank problem, it's not unique to paypal.<p>I was thinking about upgrading my phone and ebaying the old one. After reading this, I'm thinking maybe I'll go the craigslist route, or one of the online trade-in deals.<p>Does gazelle have this same issue? I'm not sure if Gazelle the company buys the product and sells it, or if they just connect me with a buyer like ebay does.
Everyone who's been in the internet for a long time know that there are dozens of sites for people to go tell their "got screwed by paypal" stories.
Why paypal has always been the most used site for online transactions? That i don't know.. I know i would never use it.
I had an issue with Paypal (outside of eBay) a few years ago and since have given up on anyone I can't work with my credit card company directly against.<p>I bought a few car parts from a shop who ended up shipping me only half my order. I contacted them, they re-sent me the same half a second time (so I had 2 of the same item, but no 2nd part). Contacted them again. Received <i>the same item a third time</i> and was fed up at this point. I had paid duties on each item to receive the package to only find I had more worthless parts and contacted PayPal for a dispute.<p>Turns out the only proof the seller had to provide was proof that there was <i>a package</i> shipped. No proof of contents or receipt or anything.<p>Learned a valuable lesson that day.
Vlad, I had a similar thing happen last year with an iPad. I even went through a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, and appealed it, but PayPal is able to hide behind their fine print.<p>I think the only way to protect ourselves from this is to limit the accounts to which our PayPal accounts are linked. They automatically-deducted $900 from my bank account upon the charge reversal, and I was unable to prevent this.<p>By the time you get Paypal's resolution, the scammer is long gone and local law enforcement will tell you it's already gone. This whole situation is monopolistic and I don't understand why the FTC is not doing anything about it.<p>(also posted as a comment on your essay)
Did Paypal steel your money? If you are a California resident you can file a complaint right now and get a response within 5 days from the Department of Financial Institutions. In California, Paypal may only hold your funds for up to 10 days only. Paypal has rules which they must comply with as a licensed money transmitter and this department enforces those rules. Fill out the online form today. You could have your money released within days! I did it and it works.<p><a href="https://dfi.secureprtportal.com/dficase/programs/eComplaint/dfi_ecomplaint.aspx" rel="nofollow">https://dfi.secureprtportal.com/dficase/programs/eComplaint/...</a>
People abusing Buyer Protection on eBay is nothing new, and has been getting out of control. But saying you should sell on eBay using something other than PayPal is just not realistic. People expect to pay with PayPal.
This article goes into my "arguments for Bitcoin" pile. More sellers need to recognize the risks involved in doing transactions through PayPal/any other credit card processor and protect themselves.
I thought my case with a virtual product, and a clear fraudulent act was bad. After hearing about this, with a physical product, it makes a local electronics dealer seem much more appealing.
Fascinating, back in the way back time when Ebay was first starting, the only way I would sell something was payment in advance, but check. Further the check needed to clear my bank before I would ship the merchandise. This was a pain but it was the only way to do business if you wanted to avoid fraud. Paypal made this so much easier, they would carry the risk if it was a 'certified' account.<p>The whole "not as described" is an impossibly giant and stupid loophole.<p>Back to asking for checks I guess.
I have no faith in PayPal as a payment processor any more. There's these problems, problems with PayPal placing random account holds etc.<p>They really don't want business from the little sellers any more.
Heres the issue (and a opportunity for a startup?) - eBay remains the main place to sell second hand goods.<p>There are other options (craigslist, amazon) but the fact is it takes longer to sell and still flush with scammers.<p>What does the solution look like? A costco style paid membership with more information given back to the user? Ability to 'vouch' for yourself via facebook/twitter/etc. ?<p>With all of this, its still chicken and the egg. Hard problem to solve.
To jump on a point totally unrelated to the post's complaint but related to selling smartphones, I've found that if I'm selling electronics (especially generation-behind iPhones for the family) I can do much better than eBay, even before you discount both their listing fee and paypal use fees. And there's comparatively no risk.<p>For cash: gazelle<p>For slightly more cash (usually just a few percent), in the form of a gift card: amazon trade-ins
The limiting factor is the buyer's reputation with his credit card company. If he is repeatedly doing chargebacks people hopefully a credit card company will notice and not take his side or better yet, not issue him credit. The idea is that credit card companies also do not want to have this person as a customer, and probably this is a new scam he dreamed up, not an ongoing one.
So what's a good alternative to the evil empire of eBay/PayPal? In the UK (where PayPal is the only valid way to pay for anything on eBay) there is just Gumtree, which is not an auction site and many categories get barely looked at (and those that do are swarming with scammers too), plus a few small auction sites that have so few users it's not worth bothering.
PayPal screwing over their users? That's new!<p>In all seriousness though, PayPal does need to get their act together. I've lost easily lost a few hundred through various transactions over the past couple years because of things like this - But there are so few options that are available to the mass public that it's hard to move away from them as a seller.
The problem with Paypal/Ebay should be referred to your State Attorney General. If enough people complain your state Attorney General could file a lawsuit against Paypal/Ebay.
The way I read this is that Paypal/Ebay does not have the appropriate mechanisms in place to protect sellers from fraudulent chargebacks and the seller loses out even when the case is clear that the chargeback is fraudulent. The message appears to be that, "sorry, we agree with you the seller but since the buyers bank agreed to the chargeback you are out of luck." In my view the State AGs should force Paypal/Ebay to take the loss in the case of fraudulent chargeback thus providing an incentive for Paypay/Ebay to fix the system. The seller protection policy should be that as long as the buyer received the proper product, you should get paid for it regardless of fraudulent chargebacks honored by the buyers bank.
I've read all of the comments and believe the consensus is basically:<p>- It's a lot cheaper for ebay/paypal to let the scammers rip off people than it is to go after them, even when the facts clearly identify the scammer<p>- Casual sellers are both less able to detect fraud and are more greatly impacted by it<p>- The feedback mechanism is insufficient "insurance" against fraud<p>- "Seller protection" and "Buyer protection" are not suitable insurances against the kind of fraud that actually occurs<p>- The vast majority of transactions are legitimate<p>- The selling prices on ebay can be substantially higher than Gazelle/Amazon, or other reputable channel<p>- Fraud will undoubtedly occur in some cases<p>How about if a 3rd party sold real buyer or seller insurance? They would be in the business of identifying scam-like behaviour from buyers/sellers, help you to avoid fraud it can detect, and ultimately insure you from loss. Not sure how much the premium would need to be in order to make this work, but seems like an interesting idea.
Yep, this is why on the rare occasions that I sell anything on eBay I write in the item description, and enforce, a rule that only accounts over 3 years old with more than 100 feedback are welcome to bid. I'm sure that shrinks my market and depresses my price but better that than being scammed.
The OP says he "Only sells to people with significant positive feedback", "Only ships to CONFIRMED Paypal addresses", and "Requires Signature Confirmation for items over $250"<p>Does ebay policy allow this? I thought the seller had to sell to the winning bidder, regardless of buyer's feedback, etc.
Fundamentally, is this a problem with eBay/PayPal or how credit card companies deal with chargebacks (and eBay/PayPal simply having to parrot the same model)?<p>As part of a large OTA, I've dealt with credit card chargebacks in the travel industry and it's really not pretty. As soon as a chargeback is received by the bank, you, the merchant, are presumed guilty. It's up to you to prove your "innocence". The buyer can simply claim one of the many frivolous reasons without providing an iota of proof and you'll be stuck with providing reams of paperwork - chargeslip, e-ticket, boarding pass, verification from airline that the passenger boarded the plane, etc. etc.
This sounds like time for a small-claims court case. Take Paypal to court. Given the evidence of fraudulent transactions, I would say there is a chance they could lose. And, if nothing else, it will cost them at least the $600 to pay for it.
The same thing happened to me with a BlackBerry a few years back. Somehow my Paypal account was limited immediately afterwards, and thus my eBay account was limited by virtue of connection.<p>I have no respect for either of these companies.
Interesting read. I had no idea about this scam and it appears I am right in the middle of one. Mind you, the item I sold is nowhere near as expensive. Lesson learned though, and I wont be using eBay any time soon.
This happens all of the time. Paypal is caught in the middle, and the credit card company almost always decides in favor of the buyer. It's because they're trying to provide the same service for both EFTs and credit cards, and those work very differently in the real world.<p>Unfortunately, PayPal sticks the user with the cost in this case. It would be out of business I'd imagine if it ate the cost.<p>Whenever someone pays for something with a credit card using PayPal, you automatically lose all of your protections if they dispute it through their cardholder. They just act as a passthrough.
Sounds like a problem with the credit card system rather than Paypal, since it appears the customer used a credit card. If you sold iPhones via Stripe, you're still liable for the same chargebacks.
We are actually developing a marketplace to help with cell phone fraud. We currently allow users to accept payments via paypal, google checkout, or amazon payments and expect to introduce Stripe Connect payments in 2013. This is only a start to preventing fraud but we have more features still being tested including a feedback system that we hope will work better than eBay's does. This thread is very helpful in determining what people want in a peer to peer marketplace.<p>Our site is still very new but we are open to criticism. cellsolo dot com
Being the grinch that I am, I stopped giving any feedback at all for buying or selling on eBay. The principal being if anything ever goes wrong, feedback is your only weapon.
Did Ebay / Paypal forward the fraud information onto the bank?<p>Did the police do anything?<p>It really sucks that the seller took the hit. Who should? The credit card companies? The banks of the scammers?
It would be interesting to contrast the same policies for other similar services (ex. Amazon Marketplace).<p>Sorry you're out that much money because of scam.
And it's not only seller protection that is lacking. Twice I've bought broken items that eBay & PayPal refused to let me return (one was a smartphone with broken touch, the other a kindle reported as lost/stolen).<p>They really, really suck. Sadly, there is little alternative to eBay.
As an ecommerce merchant, I've frankly come to view the whole chargeback thing as excessive and unfair buyer protection. The customer really is not always right - but the staff at merchant banks and PayPal seem to operate under the assumption that he/she is.
ebay will go into oblivion in a few years. The current generation barely uses them. As the last generation users slowly fade away, they will see the business dwindling.
Add to it incompetent management who stifle innovation.
Thanks for all the support guys!
I wrote up a post-mortem here:
<a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4883468" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4883468</a><p>it includes some fun site stats
> the buyer’s credit card company decided in favor of the buyer.<p>How is this PayPal's and not the credit card company's fault? Couldn't the same thing happen to anyone accepting credit card payments?
Is this behaviour of PayPal possible only in USA, or it also applies to EU countries? Does EU regulations enforce some additional protection mechanisms for both sellers and buyers?
I remember when eBay changed their policy so that sellers could no longer leave feedback, absolutely ridiculous. And I wouldn't trust PayPal as far as I could throw them.
I did recently buy some old equipment for ~$250 on ebay from an amateur seller. I'm not sure what eBay can do, except charge higher fees and provide some insurance.
In US you don't have the "pay at delivery" system? E.g. the postman gives the item to the buyer in exchange of the payment, then the post office pays you.
I think this problem goes a bit deeper and it is something I have been wondering about.<p>When I send a letter or a package and want to be sure it was received, I can rely on tracking or I can go the extra mile and request a signed return-receipt. Now all I have is confirmation the letter or package was handed over and someone confirmed they got it. They can still claim when they opened it, it was nothing but empty pages or a couple of stones - and there is no proof I actually put an iphone or important documents in there. There is nothing that guarantees both the seller AND the buyer that the actual item was very well in there and it was just as advertised in the auction and there is no easy way to prove it either.<p>From a legal point of view, how could you solve this? Let a third, independent and reliable party handle the transaction for you? Or do you pay a notary to certify that you actually packaged the iphone and that it's condition is as advertised?
Add Amazon to your list. It's much worse.<p>-You can't block scammers
-Buyers can return an item for any reason (even a year after they purchased it from you). 99% of the time, Amazon will let them keep the item and refund them. This happened to me many times.
-If you get banned, they will keep your money for 90 days. Banning is based on automated robots that look for patterns. You have no recourse. All Amazon associates will tell you to use their email support system. The email support system is manned by either scripts or reps that will only respond with canned answers.<p>Ebay isn't nearly as bad. I've had claims filed against me a few times by various people and as long as I had the tracking number, I won the claim.<p>As someone who made amazon thousands of dollars, I got tried of being treated this way. The only reason they can still continue this behavior is because they are the biggest marketplace.<p>It's hard for competitors because you need the traffic.
The whole tech culture is also to blame. I'm sure there have been a LOT of great alternate ebay, paypal start ups who just didn't get traction. Bloggers won't talk about you if you haven't raised a million and you won't get much traction on google without bloggers or spending major bucks.<p>My Dreamybids.com site for example, is an awesome service that uses the quibids model. It allows anyone to host their own auctions for products or services. Meaning a graphic designer could auction $200 of services. 10 people pay $20 to participate in the auction, one person wins and gets $200 of graphic design for $20.<p>Good luck getting traction with that if you aren't in the tech crunch, mashables, stanford, in club.