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Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

83 pointsby pizuover 12 years ago

14 comments

stiffover 12 years ago
I guess this might be stunning to some people, but even as early as before 1980 there existed people who did great science, and in some cases even great philosophy, and, oh horror, they did not always knew the Bayes theorem, decision theory or too much neuroaesthetics and they were not even very rational in their private lifes. Instead, they became completely immersed in their narrow, precisely-defined field of inquiry and had the completely irrational drive that is neccessary to persist the years of labour it often takes to repeatedly subject ones beliefs to the trials of experiment and revise them times and times again. This kind of insight is not possible if you study game theory on one day, and mathematical logic on the other, and this is even without touching on the huge amount of often conflicting assumptions that underly each of those distinct fields and the ignorance of which often leads people like philosophers to nonsense conclusions.
1337bizover 12 years ago
This sounds a lot like another Scientism dispute, i.e. if all questions of human life can be empirically answered or that there are things beyond testability.<p>It is an exhausting discussion, that goes way deeper than a few snaky comments on contemporary philosophy papers. There is actually a quite good summary on Wikipedia on the conflict: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism</a>
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lutuspover 12 years ago
&#62; We have experimental psychology now.<p>Yes -- apparently a big improvement over philosophy, until you take a closer look:<p><a href="http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/11/final-report-stapel-affair-point.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/11/final-repo...</a><p>A quote:<p>"The blame goes far beyond Diederik Stapel and the three Dutch universities where he worked as a social psychologist. In their exhaustive final report about the fraud affair that rocked social psychology last year, three investigative panels today collectively find fault with the field itself. They paint an image of a "sloppy" research culture in which some scientists don't understand the essentials of statistics, journal-selected article reviewers encourage researchers to leave unwelcome data out of their papers, and even the most prestigious journals print results that are obviously too good to be true."
ajbover 12 years ago
Notably absent from this guy's syllabus is anything concerning ethics, morality, values, or right and wrong. In all the fields he cites - even, to a large extent, psychology - values are exogenous.
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zackmorrisover 12 years ago
Philosophy and I parted ways in college when it became apparent that my own opinion meant less than someone else's. I look at philosophy as it's taught now like an introductory art class, where you learn how to draw lines and circles and shade things. Once you have a certain repertoire, focussing purely on technique becomes a waste of time, sort of the antithesis of art. Modern philosophy is touching things up in photoshop and calling it art.<p>I wish that philosophy was more about existentialism. Exploring what all of this really means and how it fits into your life. I've already diminished my argument by focussing on one narrow segment of philosophy. Then again, if philosophy is so fragile that any talk of improving it is met with hostility, maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be. And "modern" sciences like mathematics and probability don't have much to do with philosophy in my book.
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unaloneover 12 years ago
The argument is absurd. Claiming that universities are "poisoning minds" by teaching Aristotle and Descartes <i>in 101 Intro to Philosophy courses</i> is just silly. Those same universities teach modern philosophy courses that deal with the intersection of science and philosophy – judging by my one or two philosophy friends, philosophers are much more interested in the practical discoveries of psychology, math, and science than practitioners in those fields are interested in the most challenging branches of philosophy, which is a damn shame.<p>The reason Aristotle and Descartes are taught, the reason the roots of philosophical study are so important, is that philosophy at its highest is the process of <i>directing inquiry at that which is not yet examined</i>. Plato's <i>Laws</i> and Aristotle's <i>Poetics</i> mark some of the earliest attempts made by man to reason about the world simply through observation and lengthy reasoning. Descartes' work is even more breathtaking, in a sense, in that Descartes took the process of philosophers before him and developed a formalized explanation of how that process worked, then insisted that we could not fully understand the universe unless we applied this process to slowly revealing it. It was the birth of modern science, and it followed a profound philosophical insight.<p>Philosophy is a conversation that goes back thousands of years. Modern philosophy is so fascinating that of course there's a temptation to skip right to it – in my personal studies, I bounce back and forth between contemporary writers and writers from other centuries and millennia, letting the former refine my understanding of the latter and the latter provide context for the former. But the process of philosophy's development is important to teach, not to mention a somewhat exhilarating story when told properly.<p>Those contemporary articles the author scorns are proof that you can take two or three sentences from anything and make it sound much worse than it is. Yes, some of those subjects have been debated for years and years – that's a feature, not a bug. Philosophy's purpose is to search not for an answer to the surface questions (and when you're doing it right, <i>everything</i> becomes a surface question) but to dive deeper into questions of what lies beneath those questions, what assumptions we make when we use certain words or claim certain beliefs. We'll stop asking those questions when culture shifts enough that those questions cease making sense to ask – and if they do, it will be in large part because philosophy has helped reveal some unseen truths that led to a reorientation of society.<p>Look, Hacker News loves this stuff because people here are largely surface-oriented people. We love practical results, we love making things that directly affect a population's lives. LessWrong is best known for its connection to Eliezer Yudkowsky, a bright guy who's interested in putting an end to forms of death. This article's written by somebody who works for a Singularity institution. Those are what a lot of us think of when we think of philosophy – attempting to answer questions as old as mankind by devising a technical "solution" to them. Like plugging leaks and whatnot.<p>You have to understand that this isn't philosophy's sole purpose – in fact, this is a shallower purpose than philosophy's real one, which is to constantly search for deeper underlying truth. Philosophers should be aware of scientific developments, especially psychological ones, but only inasmuch as those developments completely invalidate a part of their studies, which isn't frequent. Philosophers aren't writing for the everyman; they're writing to continue a certain lofty ivory-tower discussion that slowly trickles down, through conceptual artists and writers and thinkers, to more practical-minded makers, down slowly towards people with more "mass-market" appeal, until what started as a very high-minded concept has shifted our way of thinking entirely.<p>Now, is that the <i>only</i> place philosophers should exist? No! The more philosophers, the more philosophy-oriented practitioners in whatever field, the better. But the solution is not for philosophy to become more scientific, it's for <i>science</i> to turn more <i>philosophical</i>. Insist that scientists and programmers and psychologists study philosophy. Teach philosophy to business majors. Remind students that inquiry lies at the heart of all understanding, all breakthroughs, and that therefore it's useful for nearly anything you'll undertake in your life. But don't critique philosophy for its approach. That sort of pure inquiry is still necessary, it's more difficult than ever – the geniuses of the 20th century are far more frustrating than the geniuses of ancient Greece and Europe – and it's under attack from many fronts, ranging from the blatantly anti-intellectual to the more subtly-so like this one.<p>The architect Christopher Alexander, who I greatly admire and whose work combines philosophical inquiry with practical reasoning with a fantastic mathematical rigor, makes the argument that what we typically think of as "practical" will never be enough to fully understand the nature of how the universe is organized. We can figure it out part by tiny part, but that's insufficient for thought or practice on any significant scale. He's a critic of our reliance on physics and constructing physical scientific models, not because they aren't the most cutting-edge way we know to study the universe – they are! no question about it! – but because they have their blind spots, just as every practice of inquiry throughout history has had its blind spots. For him, there is a practical intersection between math and philosophy, science and spirituality, that could be said to favor each side in a different way. But to emphasize one over any other simply because we value its "results" more would be just as disastrous as to favor the other instead. Each type of study is good at a very particular thing, and we should let it be good at that thing without insisting that it bow its head to the demands of the others.<p>The result of his thinking, incidentally, is that he comes out criticizing modern philosophy as well, but for much sounder and more incisive reasons than lukeprog does in this article.
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sharkbotover 12 years ago
I see a lot of criticism that lukeprog is "shallow" or "surface-oriented" on the topic of philosophy. While I don't believe he has formal training, the guy had a long-running blog and podcast covering a number of philosophical topics, including interviews with professional philosophers: <a href="http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=1911" rel="nofollow">http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=1911</a><p>I think lukeprog has done much to provide himself with an unbiased philosophical education.
ElCongeladorover 12 years ago
So the author argues for some kind of long in the tooth peculiar positivism? Had he studied just some 20th century philosophy and its problems (from positivism to analytic philosophy to post-analytic), he wouldn't make such tiresome arguments.
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nachteiligover 12 years ago
Tying philosophy to usefulness in STEM disciplines is a terrible idea.<p>Reading Kant doesn't "too much respect for failed philosophical methods"--if you read him properly it helps teach solid thinking that might even lead you to reject some of what he says.
br1anbergover 12 years ago
this is worse than that ayn rand post a while back
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gaddersover 12 years ago
The modern mis-use of the term philosopher is annoying.<p>A philosopher isn't a philosophy professor. A philosopher is someone who lives by and espouses there own belief system.
cthaleyover 12 years ago
Poor Plato, it seems the only sin of which he is accused, and for which he is pilloried, is that of having lived a long time ago. But for all of the comments, I can find no arguments against any thesis in Plato. And this is noteworthy. Not just because it indicates that Plato is here just a straw man and that few (if any) of his assailants here have read him, and so of course, have no grounds to criticize. But more importantly, because, Plato does not have some set of theses which even could be toppled or made irrelevant. Plato does not work like that. Philosophy does not (usually) work like that. Plato does not promulgate, he investigates. He is still taught not so much because his answers are still relevant, but because his questions are. The original article implicitly acknowledges this point when the author guesses that philosophers trained in "modern" disciplines might "get farther" than Plato on the big questions—to which one might reply: and how shall they know the big questions?<p>Someone here pointed out that this wholesale dismissal of philosophy is a category mistake (a welcome reference to Aristotle), and I agree. If you will forgive my speaking too broadly, the difficulty many non-philosophers seem to have with philosophy is simply that they do not know what it is—and more importantly, that they have never done it. I do not fault them for this (and I'll readily admit that our academies are very much at fault here, as the professionalization of philosophy has done no favors for philosophers or non-philosophers) but one ought to have, if not enough humility, at least enough love for truth to motivate silence, study, or wonder in the face of the unknown—not slander.<p>Philosophy (and especially Plato's philosophy) is not the sort of thing for which one uses a textbook. If you recall the Phaedrus (and if you don't recall the Phaedrus, you probably should not be commenting on philosophy) you'll remember that Plato has an argument against books. He worries that books will codify doxa in such a way as to stifle inquiry—a worry that was clearly warranted, as evidenced by this thread. Thus he preferred dialogues to dissertations, and precisely because the individual appropriation of knowledge, and the harmonizing of the person with reality, is what really counts—not knowing (or believing) a bunch of stuff. It is important to remember that Plato, even when making myths, is imminently and always practical.<p>Those who advocate that contemporary science is better equipped than philosophy to answer the big questions, because science "examines reality, etc." fail to recognize that "reality" itself is big question. In my own experience, I have often found it amusing how quickly some "scientists" dismiss philosophy, while I've met very few philosophers who would do the same for science. It is fine if one wants to ignore philosophy, but it is hubris to dismiss it simply because it does not do what one wants it to do.
guard-of-terraover 12 years ago
Why "train" philosophers?<p>When I imagine a "trained philosopher" I see a person who uses a lot of smart-sounding quotes but cannot choose between the right saying and the wrong saying. It's all the same to him, a material that he absorbed and now outputs.<p>Challenge philosophers. Confront them. Let them take on each other.
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marcuskazover 12 years ago
it's spelled "perl"
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