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Kickstarter backers ready class action lawsuit against Code Hero dev

211 pointsby barredoover 12 years ago

39 comments

grellasover 12 years ago
This is a drama that will play out on the web and not in a courtroom.<p>In this sense, the crowdfunding forum gives a focal point for thousands of not only backers but also spectators to debate a continuing thumbs-up/thumbs-down narrative over whether something is great/viable/the-hope-of-the-future/flaky/scammy or whatever. By definition, such a forum will invite submissions from promoters who are, variously, supremely gifted, naive and unrealistic, crafty and conniving, or just hopeful founders who see this is their best funding mechanism, whether it turns out to be good, bad, or mediocre at it plays out. For any given project, who can tell exactly who the promoters are apart from the reputations they manage to build as they do various things in the development community or otherwise in the startup world. If they were doing a true securities offering by which they were selling equity in their ventures, they would be liable if they raised funds through intentional misrepresentations or other forms of fraud (which can include making specific promises without ever having any intention of performing them). But where is the liability when no equity is being sold and instead you have commitments that backers will receive only little perks associated with a completed development effort? There are all kinds of startup ventures that never manage to bring their development efforts to completion because of unforeseen technical issues, bad market conditions, lack of funds, and all sorts of other reasons having nothing to do with fraud or other actionable wrongdoing. If this is true where a venture sells equity interests that are true securities subject to the protections of securities laws, it is doubly true where the only thing being offered is a small perk tied to a development effort that is not guaranteed to be brought to completion or at least that is not guaranteed to be brought to completion within any specified time period. In such cases, you <i>might</i> conceive of cases where actionable wrongdoing might be proven, e.g., if a promoter raised the funds and immediately absconded with them, having made no effort toward development whatever. In almost every case but that extreme one, though, it is pretty hard to prove that a promoter never had any intention of making some good-faith effort to do the development, even if the promoter is flaky or uses bad business judgment in how funds are spent. In front of a jury, that one is a long shot by any measure and very likely a loser.<p>Which brings us to the economics of a federal class action case. Only specialty lawyers handle such cases. They are procedurally complex, take years to process, and are worth doing (usually) only against defendants with deep pockets where the remedy sought is (a) damages in a sufficient sum to make the case economically worthwhile for the lawyers or (b) an injunctive or other specific performance remedy aimed at curbing some abusive, recurring practice by a large company or important player in some key market.<p>Those conditions, by definition, do not exist here. A lawyer billing hourly would easily bill a six-figure sum in a typical class action case just to get through the class certification phase. Of course, such cases are not billed hourly precisely because the whole point of a class action is to allow the courts to aggregate a bunch of little claims to allow for a practical remedy for cases that would not be economically worthwhile to pursue separately. Thus, the class action vehicle requires that one or more "class representatives" appear in the action as named plaintiffs to represent the innumerable small claimants. But the claims of the class representatives have to be typical of the claims of the others, meaning that they are small claims as well. Because of this, no named plaintiff will be fronting hundreds of thousands in legal fees on behalf of the class and so, by definition, such cases are always done on contingency. That means that, for the lawyer, the case has to make sense as a business matter: it must involve the prospect of getting a recovery that will be large enough so that a 20% or 25% (or whatever percent) cut of such recovery will make the case attractive to the lawyer for the likely thousands of hours that will need to be poured into it (in cases where there is no money recovery, you still need defendants who, as part of a settlement, will be able to pay what is usually millions in fees to compensate the lawyers for their efforts in effecting the settlement). Of course, it is possible that a lawyer may be willing to take on the case, at substantial cost, just to get publicity or for some other non-monetary motive. That too would make little sense here. Class action lawyers are highly specialized and very busy. They will occasionally do something that is the equivalent of a loss leader but not in an area for which there is no long-term practice advantage. Since, for the reasons just mentioned, I don't see any long-term future for class action lawyers pursuing smallish claims over failed crowdfunding ventures, I can't see a lawyer doing it for that reason either.<p>To sum up: dubious liability, no deep-pocket defendant, a very small amount at stake, no economic or other normal motive for a lawyer to do this = no ingredients for federal class action.<p>Therefore (and conceding that I know little about the particulars here), I would imagine that the "class action preparation" here is mostly a rhetorical device by which to call out the promoter involved in this venture and, by the measure of those questioning his motives, to expose the fact that he allegedly took advantage of innocent backers in a way that went beyond the pale of what is legitimate. This may be a worthwhile debate but it will never see the light of day in a courtroom as a class action unless it defies all odds of how such cases work.
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saurikover 12 years ago
I cannot say much about how Alex would have used funds, but I can speak to his passion for this project: I have known Alex Peake for many years (not very well, mind you), and even had a meeting with him back while he was still living in Santa Barbara (late 2007, I believe), regarding initial funding for his project.<p>The main thing I could tell is that this is the thing he seemed most to want to accomplish in the world (even though I wasn't certain it would work, thought he hadn't thought through the complexities, and might not have enough experience to pull it off).<p>In the intervening years, I have run into him at various conferences, and his interest in Code Hero has never seemed to wane: he even was making credible progress on it, and supposedly the game actually got released (although I am currently unable to find it? I'm on an iPhone, though).<p>I also recently ran into him at Science Hack Day last year, and I was <i>floored</i> at how well he was interacting with the kids there, teaching them enough JavaScript and Unity3D to make a "game" (actually, just a model and some floating platforms that you could move through; I don't even think you could land on the platforms: no collision detection).<p>I thereby highly question the validity of a malfeasance claim against him. I can appreciate that "he didn't spend the money well and the stated improvement project failed", but honestly: welcome to KickStarter... it is your responsibility to decide whether your money will be used effectively, as the entire point of the site is speculative funding.
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FireBeyondover 12 years ago
From the guy who seems to be leading the Class Action charge:<p>"Guys, I want to love you so badly... I met you at PAX and was worried how the exchange was going to go, considering we're so far behind schedule, updates are very insufficient, and I pledged at a high level ($313). You were very apologetic and assured me that things were going to take off right after PAX, but that is another commitment that hasn't been met. I'll be happiest if I can get my money back, but I doubt that's a possibility. I had time and energy to dive into this stuff earlier this year. Now I'm married, working different hours, and have a very different life. Lots has changed since the estimated delivery date flew by."<p>You were funding a product that you were told may or may not meet with success. You're now going to need to show in a civil court that there was wilful recklessness in the use of funds.<p>Kickstarter sits on the fence, too - it states that the creater is obliged to deliver pledges or refund, but that it hopes requests for refund will only be used for bad faith projects.<p>Given that he gave a video interview in November stating he felt the project had a year to go, and that the pledges specify "Estimated Delivery" only, I think that's a hard road to plow, leaving aside the fact that a malicious, or even unlucky/ill-planned project could keep pushing out the dates.<p>Some investments fail. Too many people view Kickstarter as an online store.
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dljsjrover 12 years ago
I originally came here to make a "Kickstarter is not a store" comment. I totally side with the backers and their ire, and if the devs really did squander the money "recklessly" as indicated then they have what's coming to them but the chorus of "I'm officially requesting a refund" was making me thinking of Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.<p>Come to find out, from the Kickstarter ToS[1]:<p><pre><code> Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward. </code></pre> If Alex Peake really <i>did</i> blow through $170k and the product is in fact totally scrapped, then these folks (the Primer Labs folks) seem to be in a world of hurt, owing out a lot of money that they seemingly don't have anymore. And call me a jerk if you want, but I think this is probably the best thing that could happen to Kickstarter; a decent precedent gets set for what happens when you don't deliver on a physical product before the service gets so big that it gets totally out of hand.<p>[1]: <a href="http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use" rel="nofollow">http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use</a>
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woahover 12 years ago
I used to live with Alex, and saw several iterations of Code Hero (originally called Primer after a book in Niel Stevenson's "The Diamond Age"). His enthusiasm for teaching kids to code, singularity stuff, etc was infectious. He was able to recruit developers very easily at Noisebridge, and various events.<p>When I first met him, his game was very rudimentary- basically just a tree in space. That was actually pretty much it. He was able to weave such a compelling story around the project that a lot of people pitched in to help him with it. He was able to actually get some pretty high calibre people to spend a lot of time advising him and giving him contacts.<p>At one point, he had 5-6 developers working with him to get the game ready for a YC application. He was actually able to get someone to let him use a large office for free in SOMA, while they waited for the response from YC. When the YC funding didn't come through, a lot of people were pissed at him. But honestly, nothing is certain in a startup, and they should have known that.<p>I've personally always found his ideas very inspiring, although maybe his business sense lags behind. He really has thought out an entire dream for what he would like to build, and it is very compelling in a way. It's unfortunate that he's let his gift of gab get ahead of him.<p>It looks like his main mistake here was not sending people their trinkets? not sure from the KS page, and I haven't talked to him in a while. Honestly, so many startups fail, and it seems like it would be pretty tough to build a full 3d game with a built in code editor on 170k. There are many many startups that have gone through way more money and not shipped.
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vegashackerover 12 years ago
I saw Alex speak at a Unity meetup in San Francisco on October 17th of this year. He demoed Code Hero, and (I thought) he said it was available for purchase. I thought he came off as passionate about the project. I wasn't convinced that this would necessarily be a good way for noobs to learn programming, but nevertheless I thought it was a pretty impressive demo. Just my 2¢. (I'm not a kickstarter backer of the project, and this is the first I've heard of these allegations.)
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ktrgardinerover 12 years ago
At the very least, I would be wary of any project which offers so many rewards for so little money. It's poor planning and poor allocation of money. And thus it reflects poorly upon the project creators.<p>For this project you have 1217 backers at the $42 level who get a digital download, a usb drive boxed up and signed by the whole team, and a t shirt. Obviously for such little money and so much in return, this is going to be incredibly popular. So now you have to sit your entire team down to sign their name 1200 times, purchase 1200 USBs and produce 1200 tshirts. That's too much time and money wasted. And yet money is exactly what you're asking for.
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jacquesmover 12 years ago
For sure some lawyers will make some money, assuming they can find one to take the case. But I'm thinking they'll need <i>another</i> kickstarter project to get it funded unless it is on a contingency basis.<p>If you invest on Kickstarter do it on the assumption that you'll never see the project realized and that there will be no net benefit to you personally. Do it because you wish to back the people, not the project per-se and if it works out then be happy.<p>This all looks like crying over spilt milk and trying to find a way to blame someone (anyone!) for the loss of little bits of money. If you can't afford the loss then <i>DO NOT INVEST</i>. Not in kickstarter nor anywhere else.<p>Going in without expectations will make it a much better experience for you as well as for the people trying to realize their project. If this guy spent it 'recklessly' then you're going to have to come up with some iron-clad proof of that and by definition you've already made your case impossible because clearly you're going to have a real problem to collect.<p>This case is a non-starter.
nostromoover 12 years ago
I have a hard time believing they're going to find a lawyer willing to take on a class action case over $170k in damages and a defendant that is probably broke.<p>IANAL but you probably want to incorporate before posting on Kickstarter to protect yourself from backer lawsuits if things go south.
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ChrisNorstromover 12 years ago
I think we're beginning to see the major disadvantages of using KickStarter and crowd-funding.<p>"Dealing with People"<p>Things fail by default. Look at how many companies have been started by geniuses, funded with hundreds of millions of dollars, mentioned on blogs all over the internet, and still the majority of them fail. So you can only imagine how the average person running a kickstarter feels when they can't reach their deadline. At least VCs understand the success/failure ratio.<p>VC investors are giving, few in numbers, and understanding. Crowd funding backers are the opposite: large in numbers, a pain in the ass to deal with, and irrational. If they give you $5 so help you Jesus/Alah/Buddha they will find every reason imaginable to yell at you for spending those $5 incorrectly. (see Amanda Palmer's kickstarter backlash story)
jgross206over 12 years ago
I'm curious about the two people who pledged 10,000 to this project. That seems like a pretty ridiculous amount for a game like this, even if you really do believe in the cause.<p>Maybe the guy has a couple of reallly rich friends?<p>I've also heard speculation that, if a project is near it's funding goal but looks like it won't quite make it, the people running it might pitch in the rest.
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EthanHeilmanover 12 years ago
Can anyone, in a short summary, explain what happened and why people are suing code hero?
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irollboozersover 12 years ago
I never backed this project, but I did come across the project creator and I did actually watch him and others play what seemed like a functioning version of this game.<p>I don't know what happened or why the need for a lawsuit, but this could have some very scary implications for crowdfunding. Especially as Kickstarter is now the subject of a few lawsuits (<a href="http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/21/3d-systems-sues-3d-printer-company-formlabs-for-patent-infringement-and-kickstarter-for-promotion/" rel="nofollow">http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/21/3d-systems-sues-3d-printer-...</a>). It is interesting that Kickstarter chose not step in.<p>I really hope Kickstarter doesn't end up like EBay and Paypal, the go-to marketplace of scammers.
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networkjesterover 12 years ago
A note from Alex on Primer Labs site:<p><a href="http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues" rel="nofollow">http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues</a><p>Changed link for the actual post.
antiterraover 12 years ago
I don't think failure to deliver is the biggest issue; the real problem is that he seems to have gone completely dark on his backers while apparently continuing to cheerfully update his Facebook status.<p>I'd guess that he's somewhat overwhelmed by the situation and unable to deal with it, so he's pretending it doesn't exist. If this is the case, I hope, for his sake, he manages to face it long enough to get it out of his system. I know from experience this sort of thing can eat away at you, and that letting people know you messed up can be a huge relief.
lxpkover 12 years ago
Hello Hacker News. I'm Alex the lead developer of Code Hero and here is my response to this news story, updated as I continue to answer the specific questions people have:<p><a href="https://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues" rel="nofollow">https://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues</a><p>Here's the Google Hangout where you can talk to us:<p><a href="https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/2f0778f953e6506ccb5e95232cf91282f361e6b3?authuser=0&#38;hl=en-US" rel="nofollow">https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/2f0778f953e6506ccb5e95232...</a><p>Here<p>Code Hero development continues. We released the first alpha build of the game after PAX and we're releasing alpha 2 soon to show you the latest progress.<p><a href="https://primerlabs.com/download" rel="nofollow">https://primerlabs.com/download</a> (You do have to buy the game to play the alpha as that is how we sustain development, but you can see how the game has evolved over the last year in the trailers: <a href="http://primerlabs.com/trailer" rel="nofollow">http://primerlabs.com/trailer</a>)<p>UPDATE: We reached Dustin Deckard by email. He said he wants the game to succeed and that his position is being misinterpreted in some media reports. He's not suing us, he's just trying to get answers about the project's progress as we hadn't replied to his email before. We're answering journalist and backer questions since posting the first response and posting them here. Our ongoing updates will be posted below as we answer people's questions as transparently and quickly as possible to make sure people are clear that the game development continues and we're going to communicate everything about its progress from now on.<p>UPDATE: We're on a Google Hangout you can join if you want to ask us whatever you'd like. Some journalists have questions and a lot of our friends and supporters who believe in us have reached out and asked how they can help.<p><a href="https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/2f0778f953e6506ccb5e95232cf91282f361e6b3?authuser=0&#38;hl=en-US" rel="nofollow">https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/2f0778f953e6506ccb5e95232...</a><p>We are committed to finishing this game and although progress has slowed down and the release is taking longer than we planned, we remain dedicated to working on the project and will continue to do so because we believe in this game and we believe in making programming fun to learn.<p>We are testing a second alpha release of the game to release soon so you can see what we've added since the first alpha. We exhibited our first alpha release at PAX and you can download it here.<p>Some of our Kickstarter backers are frustrated with the lack of updates on progress, and Code Hero lead developer Alex Peake would like to make a personal apology:<p>Hello backer. I owe you a thanks for your support and an apology for our lack of updates on all the progress we've made with your help. I started the Code Hero project to make a game that teaches people how to make games and you backed us to help make that happen. We are going to finish this game for you and everybody else in the world who wants to learn how to code.<p>I believe in this mission and I'm grateful that you and so many others have believed in Code Hero too and supported us to work on this project. I worked on the idea to make a prototype for a year before asking for your help on Kickstarter, I built a team to work on it for a year since, and we are committed to finishing this game and continuing to add to it so you can make games of your own.<p>Game development is hard and many studios and projects fail, but I can't let you down because what we're making is important. It's important to me personally to give all the people in the world a way to learn to code that is actually fun. I won't let any obstacles stop the Code Hero team from completing this. It's my life purpose to make this game because I want to see you make games of your own. Software development is hard work and we're behind schedule and solving technical challenges to add player level creation much harder than the already huge creative challenge we set ourselves to begin with. But every big project faces big challenges and we're going to figure ours out and get the game out and keep updating it and expanding it to make it grow to keep challenging the skills of our players as they learn more and more game coding skills.<p>Many of you may not have tried the latest alpha we showed and released at PAX. I encourage you to download it and try it and see how much we've accomplished so far. The first alpha shows a world called Gamebridge Unityversity and your first mentor Ada Lovelace who guides you through the tour of the game. First you visit the Arcade you can play and post player-created games built with the world editing tools, but first you visit the Labyrinth where you learn how to edit the game's variables to beat it. Next you visit the Library where you can learn about Unityscript programming. Then you visit the Real Artist Shipyard where you're introduced to the Scenebox world editor to make and ship your first level. The tour is designed to take the player from playing an adventure game to making their own right from the outset. It isn't complete yet, but it shows what we built and we're hard at work expanding on that first release to get the new functions fully working and the new training levels fleshed out.<p>We're testing a new second alpha release tomorrow to show what we've added since then and we're working towards a third more feature complete alpha that will be ready for general use as a complete learning tool.<p>I know the level of frustration some people have is high right now and that it is my fault for not communicating about our ongoing progress, but I want to reassure everyone who has backed us not to panic: Code Hero is not dead and we will not let our supporters and Kickstarter backers down. All our backer rewards will be delievered along with the game. It is taking longer than we hoped, but the game is becoming awesomer than we planned too. I'll post a more detailed update soon with the new alpha build and answer any questions and concerns people may have.<p>If you'd like to reach me, my email is alex@primerlabs.com and I'm on Google Hangouts and skype username "empowerment" and I will answer your all your questions or concerns.
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oboiztover 12 years ago
For many of the backers, it seems to me like that's just the risk of investing in new products/companies. If they didn't receive the promised reward for their level of contribution, that seems like a problem though.
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jdavidover 12 years ago
For everyone who is a backer and has met Alex personally, please vouch for his passion on Kickstarter. Doing it here does not help.<p>I don't consider Alex the most experienced dev, but I do think he is one of the most passionate people I have met. He tries for the stars and often times falls short, but so did the Wright Brothers, Tesla, and Edison.<p>Even the best of startups fail. I think the rate is like 1 in 100 that succede. I hardly think we should hold kickstarter projects to a higher standard.<p>I have contributed over a thousand dollars to Kickstarter projects, and I don't consider any of those dollars, purchases. I consider them donations. Some projects will succede while others fail.<p>Don't let the legal system make an example of this.<p>Prosper is still a great company, but legal quagmires made it much less than it's original vision. I'd hate to overly regulate kickstarter.
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stcredzeroover 12 years ago
I met Alex personally and visited him at his apartment. He gave me a demo of Code Hero. A lot of things worked. A whole lot of things didn't work, and if I could understand if a programmer would feel embarrassed for the code to be released that way. I've also had occasion to overhear discussion about the project. From what I've seen, there was a tremendous failure of project management. From what I understand, there was no form of automated testing. There were team members who didn't work well with others, and the team's overall capability (or lack of) resulted in frequent broken builds.<p>In short, I don't think there was any malice at work here.
jtchangover 12 years ago
I totally wasn't aware Alex even had a kickstarter. I actually know Alex since I go by Noisebridge and saw him there a few days ago. Does Kickstarter bind you to a date to deliver a product or consider the whole thing as failed?
noonespecialover 12 years ago
Part of the lesson here might be "don't delay the release of the originally promised project because your scope has become 'awesomer' than you originally planned. You can scope creep forever.<p>TL;DR: Don't Duke Nukem your backers.
slovetteover 12 years ago
This is the risk in investing, period. Kickstarter should do what it can to reduce the risk of scammers (properly screen and check into submitted projects and their founders history), but they're not in existence to be an insurance policy on consumer's bad investments. The lesson here is even in a very simplified world of investing, research and knowing before you invest is crucial.<p>I do wish the pursuit on the side of Alex Peake success, people should ask questions and investigate how he lost all that money. I like the idea of crowd-funded &#38; crowd-accountable.
grannyg00seover 12 years ago
The average pledge is $23. Class action seems a little bit unreasonable. Especially since these are supposed to be donations. Are they not?
brudgersover 12 years ago
A class action lawsuit over $200,000?<p>This is why crowdfunding is a bad idea. Even if you are a scam artist (which I am not saying potential defendant is).
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madrobbyover 12 years ago
I, for one, think it's delightful that more people are getting to understand the vagaries of product development from an investment standpoint. The more people experience the pain, hopefully the less broken things will become.
rtkweover 12 years ago
Is there a short explanation of what's happened? I haven't heard of all this.
lackbeardover 12 years ago
So what are the actual terms of Kickstarter? I always assumed it was something more like venture capital than a loan, and if a project wasn't completed... that's that, the funders get nothing.
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freddywangover 12 years ago
I am afraid once a successful class action lawsuit is unleashed, many similar lawsuits will be in the rise. It will definitely stifle innovation, defeating the very purpose of kickstarter
scott_meadeover 12 years ago
No one should ever expect that an investment will provide any specific return. Especially when it's not SEC regulated, audited, or otherwise credentialed at all. And extra-especially when the platform on which the funding is made explicitly disclaims any expectation of project completion saying "Kickstarter does not investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. Backers ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it."
niftylettuceover 12 years ago
Shameless plug: we handle t-shirt reward fulfillment :P <a href="https://teelaunch.com" rel="nofollow">https://teelaunch.com</a>
jayzalowitzover 12 years ago
<a href="http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues" rel="nofollow">http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues</a>
Nursieover 12 years ago
Kickstarter is neither purchase nor investment, it's a grey area.<p>I guess the lawsuits were bound to start flying sooner or later.
dongleover 12 years ago
How is it that the word 'hubris' failed to appear in any of the 177 comments?
kjackson2012over 12 years ago
Can they request chargebacks through their respective credit card companies? That seems like it's the easiest way to get their money back, although it's a bit old at this point.
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chrjover 12 years ago
Couldn't the backers just request a chargeback?
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jaequeryover 12 years ago
and it sure won't be the last ...
kreutzover 12 years ago
Context?
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camusover 12 years ago
This whole thing is a scam , plain and simple. I'm sorry for those who invested in that kind of product , but when you deal with real VC , the business you are investing in cannot just ignore you. You meet the executives on a regular basis , you get reports , business plans , previsions , etc ... Crowdfunding simply doesnt work if the project is just barebone. Crowd funding should be the last step of a project industralisation , not the first. There was close to no code in that project , only smoke... whoever invested in that scam , i hope you learned your lesson.
michaelochurchover 12 years ago
I don't know enough about the story here to have a strong or moralistic opinion, but from what I've read, this whole thing stinks.<p>Kickstarter is supposed to make it easy and lightweight to raise money for projects, but if a failed project can ruin your reputation, then that money is coming with some severe strings.<p>If he really is fraudulent, then he probably should be sued and he shouldn't get funded again, but I see a bad precedent and a chilling effect here.