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Stop Generalizing About Europe

441 pointsby jonascopenhagenover 12 years ago

43 comments

crazygringoover 12 years ago
This post feels awfully pedantic. While it may not be clear to non-Americans, when Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. They almost certainly aren't including Russia.<p>(Just like when Americans talk about Asia, they aren't usually thinking of India.)<p>Of course, that's geographically inaccurate -- but it's what we usually mean. The Europe that Americans refer to <i>does</i> mostly use the Euro, have better-distributed wealth, plenty of consumers, and ambivalent feelings toward entrepreneurs in most of its parts.<p>Just because Europe is made up of lots of countries, and there are lots of different ways to define it, doesn't mean you can't make statements about it. Perhaps the main point of the post was, be aware that Eastern Europe exists?
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Vivtekover 12 years ago
Hmm. Perhaps you could stop generalizing about people generalizing about Europe. Varsavsky has lived and built businesses in Madrid since 1995, so I think that his <i>contrasts</i> between the European market and the American market from the entrepreneur's point of view are really pretty trustworthy.<p>Your points about European diversity are quite valid, although I think they're beside the point. But your ad hominem "Oh my, another American is butting his nose into Europe" framing is less than persuasive.
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erebrusover 12 years ago
It's amazing how many from the USA insist that the inner diversity in the USA is comparable to the one in Europe. I've heard this many times, namely here in HN. It is not comparable. PERIOD.<p>Even if the poster goes a bit to the extreme of bringing Russia in to the conversation, even inside the EU, there is still no comparison on how how diverse Europe is (e.g. Portugal to Norway, Greece to France, Spain to Germany) compared to the USA. Some countries, like Austria and Germany do have some similarities, but - to the untrained eye - Canada and the USA will seem relatively similar also, when compared to Mexico!
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nhebbover 12 years ago
I think a lot of us need to admit that the author is right. I, for one, do generalize about Europe. I think of social democracies with high taxes. I think of arcane rules and regulations to start and run a business. And most of all, I limit the term "Europe" to include about 20 of the 50 European countries. I will never think of Russia as a European country. If I entered a contest and won a vacation to "Europe" - and the destination turned out to be Albania - I'd be thinking "Wat?!? That's not Europe."<p>From the outside, the term "Europe" is a confusing morass of distinctions. There's Europe, the Eurozone, the EU. The UN also has a geoscheme that is different than all three of those. Hell, half of Americans probably don't know the difference between England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom.
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peteridahover 12 years ago
I am an African currently living in Europe. When you think that my home country ( just 1 out of 54 in Africa ) is made up of over 500 tribes which were really separate and distinct nations pre-colonializiation by the British, you come to realize that any generalization made of a continent is rarely (if ever) a representation of the observed set.
saosebastiaoover 12 years ago
There is a small town very near to where I grew up where everybody speaks Portuguese. The mayor and his councilmen speak Portuguese in their chambers. There are Festas and bullfights, of which I have attended many, and even played Baritone in an Azorian-tradition marching band. The local grocery stores have food with labels in Portuguese (occasionally Spanish as a second language). The most popular sports team in the entire city is Benfica, and the most popular TV channel is RTP.<p>This town is called Gustine, and it is located in California.<p>If you are going to throw a fit about generalizations of Europe, at least have the courtesy to do the same with your generalizations of the US. After having lived in multiple corners of this country, I can honestly tell you that our majority language and our TV stations are the lowest common denominators of our culture...not defining aspects of it.
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gudukassaover 12 years ago
I am from Africa - a continent of more than a billion people speaking around two thousand languages. In Africa, you find one of the first Christian nations in the word as well as communities practicing ancient forms of traditional belief systems. Climate ranges from scorching heat and arid desert to tropical rain forests. You find the very wealthy elite monopolizing all the resources as well as mass poverty. I could go on.<p>To make matters worse, borders between countries are artificially drawn by colonialists. That results in frequent conflicts and makes effective governance or business extremely difficult. Yet, almost everyone refers to Africa as one homogeneous (dark) unit.<p>Schadenfreude from your African fellow.
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mbellover 12 years ago
I could make an almost identical argument about the usage of terms like "Americans". The states and even cities themselves are all very different.
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cllnsover 12 years ago
I was curious so here are some population figures (from wikipedia)<p><pre><code> Eurozone: 332,839,084 EU: 503,492,041 Europe: 739,165,030 </code></pre> So 45% of Europeans (66% of EU citizens) are in the Eurozone.
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elomarnsover 12 years ago
As a brazilian, I completely understand this feeling. A lot of people think Buenos Aires is Brazil's capital, when it's actually Argentina's capital. And small parts of our culture are taken as national main interest, as carnival.<p>But it's ok to me. In the end, there's no much to do besides correcting people. It's not worth to be upset with this behaviour. People will always generalize and will always state things about places they don't even know with total confidence.
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corwinstephenover 12 years ago
True, you're generalizing when you say "Europeans are...", but you would also be generalizing if you said "Americans are...", "San Franciscans are...", "Rich people are...", "Programmers are...", and so on and so forth for any group of people you can think of. Talking about a group of people is generalizing, and generalizing is a necessary part of life, because despite the fact that doing so may cause untrue things to be said about certain people, it is also true that generalizations are true about more people than they are untrue about. That's why they're called generalizations.<p>People say "vc's in the bay area understand startups." Is this universally true? Of course not. But am I ignorant for saying so? Not in the slightest, because in more cases than not, it is true.<p>So yeah, the guy's statements might not be holistically accurate, but who's are? He's offering guidlines, and I believe that's fair.<p>Disclosure: I have not yet had the pleasure of visiting Europe. It is possible that my opinions might change after experiencing life there firsthand.
Kynlynover 12 years ago
Reverse "Europeans" with "Americans" and this post is equally good advice for Europeans who say "Oh Americans are...".<p>Stereotypes aren't just an American thing. They exist worldwide.
aufreak3over 12 years ago
I would love to write a similar post titled "Americans and Europeans, stop generalizing about India". As much as I cringe every time I hear someone do an "Indian accent" (it differs <i>vastly</i> from state to state), drawing simple boundaries is the way we make sense of the world around us. As experience grows, we learn to make finer distinctions and the texture of life around us grows from monochrome to technicolour.<p>Please feel free to draw these simple boundaries around anything of importance to you as long as those generalizations are adequate for your life and those around you. Don't however think that your generalizations are absolutely real. They're real for you and may not be for others. This is what is ultimately so beautiful about the world.
conradfrover 12 years ago
If you think of it, pop culture shared amongst Europeans have a greater chance to be American than European.
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polskibusover 12 years ago
I was taught at my (European-based) business negotiation course that such generalizations as the ones mentioned in the article, are a basic American negotiation strategy to undermine European confidence. I was told that Americans are aware (most of the time) that their behaviour is received as ignorant and rude. After reading the article, I'm back to wondering whether my business negotiation professor was just prejudiced or is there a grain of truth in what he told me?
adventuredover 12 years ago
The comedy to this is the extreme generalizing that goes on globally when talking about America / Americans.<p>We're all cowboy surfer rednecks that love our guns and religion, are all broke with maxed out credit cards and overweight with a nasty case of diabetes.
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kmfrkover 12 years ago
A good and bad article all in one.<p>It's good, because it addresses some <i>common misconceptions</i>.<p>It's bad, because it implies that you can't generalize about anything nor anyone. Obviously, there are - broadly - common traits in Europe. The point is fine, to the extent that the broader generalizations you make, the more people will be described incorrectly - and you cite some great numbers to emphasize that.<p>The post makes it sound as if there is some scientific constant for maximum population size you can generalize about.
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brightsizeover 12 years ago
I think there's a lot of truth to this essay. As am American, I've certainly been guilty of these kinds of generalizations. To Americans (colloquially meaning U.S. citizens here), I think the phenomenon can be attributed mainly to two causes. The first is that Americans don't travel much, only a small minority hold passports. And who can travel with a meagre two contiguous weeks of holiday per year, and with real incomes of the 99% declining for the past 30 years? The second is that the political propaganda machine in the States explicitly lumps all the nations of Europe into the "un-American, thus wrong-thinking" category. You need look no further than our last presidential election for evidence of this: <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16583813" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16583813</a> . There's probably a third force at work that just occurred to me: I think that in American schools, kids are not taught anything meaningful about Europe other than perhaps a vague bit about the World Wars. Namely who was "good", and who was "evil", black &#38; white just like modern American politics. My apartment here in Berlin has a Berlin-raised caretaker who I've had a few extended conversations with. I'm astounded by how much he knows about American history, to the point of even forming opinions (historical ones, not politico-propaganda-influenced ones as far as I can tell) on individual events such as the battle of Little Bighorn. He's in his late 40s, speaks English fluently, and knows more about American history than most Americans I've met. I'm not sure that I entirely know what to make of this, but it certainly leaves me with the impression that there's an element of learning and sheer curiosity about the world that's largely absent in the States.
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RivieraKidover 12 years ago
From the outside, Europe may seem more united than it is. I think that the difference between two randomly selected European states is the same as the difference between a random European state and the US.<p>Also I disagree, that there is a need for a stronger union. Free trade union yes, but other than that, every state should be sovereign.
kafkaesqueover 12 years ago
I came to this party rather late, but here are my $0.02.<p>I don't pretend to be a super well-traveled individual, but I have traveled a bit.<p>I feel both Jonas Bentzen and the article he refutes are wrong to some degree, though Mr Bentzen seems to be making a less severe generalisation.<p>What I see occurring here is a classic example of metonymy and cosmopolitan and metropolitan cities vs. perceived 'real culture'.<p>Metonymy: A country seems to be defined by its major city or cities--to the outsider, the fewer cities represent it, the better.<p>Cosmopolitan cities: The problem is these major cities tend to be cosmopolitan cities. Think Alpha-, Alpha, Alpha+ and Alpha++. These types of cities tend to strive towards homogeneity. I had a history prof (who leaned towards socialism) lay out and explain how, historically, the bigger a city gets, the less unique and further away from its ancestors and traditions it culturally becomes. Cultural hegemony.<p>Metropolitan cities: Then there are 'medium-size' cities, or 'second major cities' that fight to keep some traditions and cultures from their respective countries. Some metropolitan cities strive to be more cosmopolitan, and have that sensation; I'm thinking of a few (very few) Beta-, Beta, and Beta+ cities here.<p>During the French Revolution, there were two major schools of thought in Spain. One went like this: Bonaparte wants to modernise countries and wage war on 'tradition'; let's join the French movement and abolish our backward traditions. These people, in Spain, were called 'afrancesados' ('Frenchifieds', pro-French), pejoratively. They were found in major Spanish cities.<p>Here is the really important part: people outside of major Spanish cities thought they were protecting the 'real' Spanish culture; they were often of humble birth, people that had given rise to what people outside of Spain thought was 'very Spanish' (flamenco, cante jondo, running of the bulls, gypsies, etc.) from a cultural perspective. They had traditions; old traditions. They were superstitious, street-smart, but they were also deceived by kings and, to use a modern term, their governments.<p>I don't see much has changed with regard to cultural representation.<p>The government projects/sells an image of their country to foreigners. Some people buy into it. The reality is that not only is each country vastly different, each region and city is.<p>We should be comparing cities with cities, not countries with countries.
gregoover 12 years ago
As a European myself, I think it is fine to generalize* about Europe. Many points in Varsavsky's blog post were correct and it raised awareness of some things to consider. Sure, it had its omissions and errors, but also remember it was a blog post, not an article in a peer reviewed journal. Reading the article + the ensuing hacker news discussion one is already much better informed.<p>What is naive is to expect some blog post to give you an overarching view of a very complex subject. Kind of like reading a wikipedia article something and expecting to be expert on the subject matter after that.<p>*Making generalizations is a wonderful property of the human brain. Without that we'd all be lost in the fractal complexity of everyday detail.
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digitalWestieover 12 years ago
I agree with everything said here - maybe apart from the points about demographics. We know Varsavsky was referring to Western Europe. In any case, I don't think it's such a bad thing to ignore differences for a moment and do a bit of generalizing.<p>We end up making preconceptions and assumptions about what will and won't work in other countries. Cultural and linguistic barriers are almost being used as an excuse. This is a massive mistake we are making in Europe. There are plenty of products and/or ideas which all of Europe has had an appetite for.<p>Naturally, appetite for ideas/services may exist in one country more than the others. That's where you'll find your early adopters but it's not the bigger picture!
dimitarover 12 years ago
Stereotypes and generalizations are so common because they are useful, not because Americans are ignorant. Not just because no one cannot remember every detail about everything - generalizations are models, simplifications of reality, which help you make an informant decision confidently. For example: are you willing to adhere to workplace regulations? If its a low priority maybe you should skip Europe.<p>I'm from an EU country that in my opinion was 150 degrees (180-30) from what Martin Varsavsky described, but I still appreciated his article. I know it meant Western Europe and I learned that US entrepreneurs are a lot different. Generally.
charlescearlover 12 years ago
What's a harder climb -- getting Americans to stop generalizing about Europe or Africa? Wait -- if they could get to the point of realizing that Africa is a continent and not a country, that in itself would be a giant leap forward.
jacoblylesover 12 years ago
Isn't it true that the Western European economies are high-tax, high-regulation economies with high degrees of risk-aversion (both public and private) compared to America? Where does that stereotype fail?<p>From what I know, it's hard to fire underperformers in most of Western Europe. Many traditional industries are protected (like French book stores). Taxes are high. Anti-market sentiment is strong. It's not a place where I would want to start a company to do what has never been done before.<p>I'd like to be wrong. I hear Europe is a nice place to live, otherwise. But it is called the "old world" for a reason.
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TeMPOraLover 12 years ago
And for the similar reasons I think it would be in the interest of fruitful discussion to try and not generalize India and China into... well, India and China, respectively. Yes, they are both single countries, but every one of them has a population greater than America and Europe combined. At this scale I'd expect that those countries have cultural substructures corresponding to european nation-states in size and diversity.
jusben1369over 12 years ago
Ok. Then what? Try and imagine an article written for US based entrepreneurs that didn't generalize about Europe to some degree? It would be awfully confusing (if written at all) So better to gently chide some of the more extreme generalizations than worry about stopping the practise entirely.
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fahadkhanover 12 years ago
I think you are pedantic about other people's semantics and not your own. E.G. when you say American, do you mean US citizens or people from the two continents of America? I think you mean the former. Just like they most likely mean Western Europe.
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vixen99over 12 years ago
A trifle off-topic but it's interesting to read that the author believes in a 'strong European union' with 27 unelected commissioners and an unelected president following a constitution that has never been put to the peoples of the EU countries.
bitteralmondover 12 years ago
This guy seriously doesn't understand that "Europe" to most us westerners basically means "All European countries with a coastline, down to Italy."
robinwautersover 12 years ago
Martin is from Argentina, not American, and he has built and invested in businesses in both Europe and the US. He knows what he's talking about.
anigbrowlover 12 years ago
I'm European and think this article is bunk. Hardly anyone (in western Europe at least) considers Russia to be a part of Europe.
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Kim_Bruningover 12 years ago
Can we agree on the colloquial: "American"=USAian , "European"=EUian ? (And specify otherwise if otherwise?)
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readmeover 12 years ago
I'm going to take this a step further and just say "Stop Generalizing" (Wait... was that a generalization?)
jballancover 12 years ago
I'd wager $100 that 99% of HN readers can't even name the fastest growing economy in Europe...
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robonealover 12 years ago
To sum up the comments: Stop generalizing about my generalizing.
mmaunderover 12 years ago
OP: Stop generalizing about Americans.
jpeg_heroover 12 years ago
Wow, there is so much euro-hurt over that Varsavsky post that people are resorting to random nit-picking on the definition of Europe.
vanhaltover 12 years ago
America is a continent. No matter how much the people from the US call themselves "Americans" You are generalizing when you say "Americans".<p>Thanks
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pretoriusBover 12 years ago
Well, I'm a European myself, but the corrections sounds a little on the pedantic side:<p>&#62;<i>"Most of Europe has the euro as a common currency" -- Only 17 of Europe's 50 countries use the Euro.</i><p>Yes. Only some of the LARGEST countries, for a total of 332 million people. Not to mention that he did say "most".<p>&#62;<i>"Europe is great for an American tech entrepreneur because wealth is better distributed" The difference between the Scandinavian countries and, say, Russia is enourmous when it comes to wealth distribution.</i><p>That's one of the reasons most people don't include Russia when they talk about Europe. Not to mention that it can even refer only to the EU countries.<p>&#62;<i>"More consumers can buy your products and services" Certainly depends on whether you're selling to Swiss or Romanians.</i><p>The same point keeps repeated.<p>It's as if someone talked about investing in the US, and someone felt obliged to blog about the differences between Illinois and New York and rural Idaho, Mississippi, Alabama and South Dakota.<p>Yes, we got it already. It's not like someone will go to invest blindly to the _geographic region_ that is Europe. He will most likely go to what is called Western Europe, or the EU.
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PoliticsJunkieover 12 years ago
Created an account just to state this: tech people please don't go into discussing politics / economics. Brits want to exit EU because of wars in the past? This is ridiculous!<p>What about the real reasons: 1. Britain has 70% of its laws created by the EU by burocrats who were never voted into the office and can't be voted out of the office: Barroso (President of the European Commission) and Von Rumpoy (whatever his name - never elected President of the UE). 70% of British laws are created by unelected foreigners who definitely don't share their anglo-saxon heritage, focusing more on Germany-centered economic views.<p>Germany has always been goods producer. UK has always been a trading nation. You say forcing UK to obey Teutonian laws will prevent future wars and upheaval and I'm telling you it may as well cause them (look at another country not consistent with German economic policies: Greece)<p>Not to mention other things: UK is banned from entering into trade treaties with Canada, Australia, India, and the US - their historical partners - EU has to do it for them! They have to accept EU imposed anti-British customs with India, Australia and Canada because by the EU law they have to trade openly with EU and mustn't with Anglo-Saxon world. And economically - this is killing them. EU exports into UK much more than UK into EU. Why bother? It's not like they will loose business once outside of the block.<p>And other things - newly passed EU laws that will basically kill London's stock exchange and investment banks to keep German tax payers happy.<p>THIS and not history of wars is the cause of 2 in 3 Britons being in favor of EU exit. It's just bad business for them and their economy and nobody in the EU seem to care. As long as the Chancellor is happy.
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paulhauggisover 12 years ago
Then stop comparing things like healthcare in a country of less than 10 million to one with 300 million+
JohnFromBuffaloover 12 years ago
My 2c, is stop trying to be one nation then. The EU zone is something of a fiasco and its really killing the entire zone with countries like Turkey and Greece. Don't blame us .. blame your governing body for making it difficult to operate in Europe.
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