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The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

123 pointsby roqetmanover 12 years ago

19 comments

jandrewrogersover 12 years ago
There are (at least) three valid perspectives on the patent situation within the software community but part of the reason so little constructive progress is made is that many people with strong opinions will often flat-out deny or reject the validity of the other perspectives because it is outside their experience.<p>Three perspectives of which most people ignore one or more:<p>- Computer technology is over-run with frivolous, vague, stupid, conflicting, and contradictory patents. Any pretense of quality control by the USPTO was lost in the 1990s. This imposes a non-trivial cost on the entire ecosystem and a complete absence of quality control is arguably worse than no patents at all.<p>- R&#38;D into new computer algorithms is a non-trivial investment, frequently requiring years and millions of dollars. There is a tendency among programmers to discount the level of effort required to develop a new computer algorithm that materially extends the state-of-the-art even though most could not develop such algorithms themselves and have never been involved in such R&#38;D. Organizations that make this investment do so looking for a return.<p>- Academia is already facing difficulties in computer science because much of the state-of-the-art research is being done by private companies. Much of this research is being treated as trade secrets because (ironically) patents offer flimsy practical protection. As a consequence, there are a number of areas in computer science where the leading academic papers are literally a good half decade behind the state-of-the-art that is buried in NDAs. Lack of publication means that a lot of smart people are wasting time duplicating work. Patents were originally invented precisely to avoid this outcome. One of the reasons that I stopped reading academic computer science in some areas that interest me is that I see computer science under NDA that is much more sophisticated, which is a shame.<p>Any practical policy will need to take into consideration all of these perspectives. It is not as convenient and simple as "all software patents are evil!" or "software patents FTW!" but it more closely reflects the real tradeoffs.
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powertowerover 12 years ago
"The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying." -- John Carmack
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rayinerover 12 years ago
Groklaw's editorializing has gone way downhill since the SCO days. E.g.<p>"I know the USPTO doesn't want to hear that software and patents totally need to get a divorce, but since most software developers believe that, maybe somebody should at least mention it to them, if only as a future topic for discussion. Most developers I know believe software is unpatentable subject matter."<p>Ask software developers who work in defense, aerospace, medical devices, telecommunications, video/audio processing, and other capital-intensive, R&#38;D-intensive fields. I think you'll get a rather different answer. Indeed, as Google is finding out with the Motorola acquisition and the resulting patent situation, software engineering culture is far from uniform on this issue. The guys who write software that implements radio waveforms don't have the same views on patents as the guys who write software to optimize ad display, or for that matter the guys who write the search engines. Ironically, Google's PageRank is the subject of several patents, and Stanford's interest in the IP netted them $335 million in Google shares when they exclusively licensed it back to Google.<p>Although, I think this sort of round-table is a pretty good forum for figuring out more about the consensus view of software engineers...
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Barrakethover 12 years ago
A large problem with software patents is that feature definition and implementation have been rolled into one. Patents were designed to protect implementation - that is, you can't patent having an engine in the car, but you can patent a specific design (implementation) of an engine. In the software world I feel like that distinction has been blurred.<p>Even if we assume that software is patentable, the bounce back effect should not be patentable. The reason is that all the novelty is in coming up with the feature itself. I don't know whether I could come up with the bounce back effect by myself. I know for a fact that I could implement it, and so could any sufficiently strong software engineer. There is no novelty in the <i>implementation</i> that is worthy of patent protection.<p>This is trade dress all over again hiding under a different name. It should be given a different status (just like business patents), and different time frames of protection. This way we still protect truly novel research in algorithms (pagerank for example), while eliminating 95% of the patents we as software engineers find so objectionable.
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chris_mahanover 12 years ago
I'm a software developer by trade, and here is my opinion: Software should be treated as language, and thus not be patentable.
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robomartinover 12 years ago
When I was younger and far more innocent I would do things because of the sheer love of doing, learning and discovery. I'd spend hours, no, days, wiring chips together, writing code, testing, soldering, dreaming, inventing. In college I even published a paper on some work I did in robotics when pushed my my prof's to publish. It was great. I'd like to think I "invented" a few things in the process too.<p>Then I was "born" into the real world: One where companies who do nothing (and some who do something) have patents for stuff I had been doing for ages. You know, stuff like using pulse-width-modulation to control LED intensity (ye'old Color Kinetics), clicking buttons (multiple companies) or putting a spring in series with a microprocessor-controlled motor to control force (MIT, series-elastic actuator).<p>That's when I realized that what I had been "sold" about engineering, entrepreneurship and research and invention was a huge pile of bullshit. The realization was that government incompetence in perhaps one of the most important human fields of endeavor --invention-- has all but ruined what I loved to do before this epiphany.<p>Now you had to study Sun Tzu. Now, without your own bullshit patent to act as a shield, you had live in fear of being sued for daring to make a screen area clickable or drag-able, attach a spring to a motor, dim an LED with PWM or the myriad of "obvious to someone skilled in the art" things that are patented. Or you had to hire lawyers to ride shotgun on everything you might want embark on.<p>The alternative is what most of us actually have to do: We use the tools we know and what we learned to create things and explore ideas. Unless you operate at Google/Apple/Samsung scale you have no choice but to stick your head in the sand and hope that someone doesn't come after you because you app sends an email (or whatever).<p>I don't know what the solution might be. I have done my share of heavy-duty hardware-intensive R&#38;D spanning years. I get it. Sometimes the difference between something flying and not is found in a seemingly minor detail. The wheel was obvious to the second guy who so it, right?<p>At the same time, I think it is beyond-obvious to most in tech that the US Patent Office has done a dismal job of filtering that which is "obvious to someone skilled in the art" from true invention. I am not going to draw the demarcation line myself, the subject is too complex and each discipline has it's own boundaries.<p>That said, if you have ever invested any time in the process of patent search I would be surprised if you did not share my sentiment: the vast majority of patents I have seen should never have been issued.<p>I fully expect lawyer types to say something akin to: "You have to read the claims carefully. The differences can be subtle but important". I've heard this before. My answer has always been the same: As an engineer I don't have to dive into intricate lawyer-ese to know bullshit when I see it. A spring attached to a motor to control force, you know, "F=kx", is way beyond obvious to anyone who took first-semester Physics. Yet, you lawyers manage to craft convoluted language that takes "F=kx" in the form of a motor and a spring and turns it into a patent that I now have to worry about if I do robotics (which I have done in the past).<p>Perhaps one of the problems is that the USPTO (I can't speak for other countries) is like a self-feeding fire: The more patents they approve the more people and companies have to file protection patents, which brings in more and more money to support more and more bureaucrats. Every patent you approve is a patent that has "job security" written all over it. If, starting on Monday, they approved patents at a rate of 10% of what they did last year they would probably have to fire 75% of their staff (just guessing).<p>Maybe the way to fight nonsense patents isn't to make an intellectual claim at all. Maybe the only way is to act politically in order to funnel, say, 50% of USPTO revenue to the Department of Health, or Education or completely outside of government entities. The USPTO would cease to be a self-feeding fire and they might just be forced to only pass real patents.<p>What if there was a rule that everyone involved in a patent that is invalidated is fired and they loose their pension? Violent, yes, but it would sure raise the bar very, very quickly to a super-high level. Which is exactly where the bar should be.<p>The other aspect of this is that perhaps patents should cost a lot more money and be subject to a significantly more public process where prior art is defined far more liberally than it is today. If a patent application costs started at the lesser of a million dollars or some percentage of last year's revenue the bullshit patents would go away. In the case of organizations like Google/Apple/Samsung it might cost them ten million dollars to apply for one patent and dozens of millions of dollars to actually get one patent. If a patent costs fifty million dollars I suspect we are not going to see many "slide the button this way" patents filed. Yes, this is off-the-hip and not well thought out. I get it. Take it as more of a random though out of frustration than a coherent idea.<p>Sometimes you just want to cry when you learn about some of the consequences of the government-sponsored monopolies created through the USPTO. Here's a particularly touching example:<p><a href="http://www.electronista.com/articles/12/06/14/speech.application.removed.by.apple.pending.outcome.of.hearings/" rel="nofollow">http://www.electronista.com/articles/12/06/14/speech.applica...</a><p>The teachers at my kid's school asked me if would collaborate with them to help create (free) iPad apps for their developmentally-challenged students. Of course, I will, but the above bullshit patent and the many more that must exist in the dark files at the USPTO sometimes jar your reality. It is a sad note that rather than sit down and start writing code one of the first things I have to do is a patent search.<p>Sometimes I wish things were like when I was younger and more innocent: I could choose to help someone with my knowledge of technology and we'd all benefit from what might result (commercial or not). That, sometimes, is a tough choice to make today.
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sutroover 12 years ago
I'm disappointed by the number of software patent apologists on this thread. The effort or the cost required to accomplish something in software is not a good argument for being granted a government monopoly on your type of solution. Code itself can be copyrighted and does not have to be shared. Novelists spend years on novels, have their exact words copyrighted, but don't expect to be granted "patents" on the ability to tell certain types of stories. We need to free programming from these illegitimate shackles. We programmers deserve to have the same freedoms as writers when we sit down to tell our stories in code.
prodigal_erikover 12 years ago
Disappointing that the first topic is writing style, not whether an invention would be trivially recreated by anyone who might need it and so shouldn't be claimed.
basehover 12 years ago
Here is the notice on Federal Register.<p><a href="https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2013/01/03/2012-31594/request-for-comments-and-notice-of-roundtable-events-for-partnership-for-enhancement-of-quality-of" rel="nofollow">https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2013/01/03/2012-315...</a><p>USPTO should go abolish itself, for the benefit of mankind.
powertowerover 12 years ago
Software patents are here to stay. Don't fight a battle you can't win, the Patent Office is not going to throw away the billions of dollars they make on this... But you can make it so they get to keep their revenues, but we get to add rules that help invalidate patents, or limits how much the troll gets.
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mburshteynover 12 years ago
Santa Clara held a conference on potential solutions to the software patent problems a few months ago. The proposals ranged from abolishing "computational idea patents" (Stallman says even calling them software patents is flawed) to fee-shifting. It's pretty interesting if you have a few hours to spare.<p>The video feed is here: <a href="http://ammsweb.scu.edu/webcasts/mmedia1/20111014-083613-1e_opening/index.htm#" rel="nofollow">http://ammsweb.scu.edu/webcasts/mmedia1/20111014-083613-1e_o...</a><p>Wired op-ed series based on the conference presenters: <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/14cb0c/im_snoop_lion_ask_me_anything/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/14cb0c/im_snoop_lion_a...</a>
YokoZarover 12 years ago
If you would like to attend one of these meetings and make a point while making everybody laugh, I suggest telling a fictitious story about the time you wanted to learn how to implement a software technology by looking up an expired patent on it.<p>The fact that this idea is a literal joke should be quite revealing. Patents are supposed to be comprehensible. They're supposed to be the alternative of trade secrets. They're supposed to be a means by which the public learns how to do non-obvious things once they expire.
tracker1over 12 years ago
Personally if the implementation is simple given the task, and the idea is obvious, or combines two existing concepts in an obvious way... it shouldn't be patentable... Anything that is a virtual representation of something real, in terms of software is an obvious idea, and shouldn't be patentable. In fact, for the most part, I can't really think of anything in terms of software, that doesn't have corresponding unique hardware for the past 20 years that is worthy of a patent.
politicianover 12 years ago
I'd be interested in seeing software patents come with source code and unit tests. The tests, in particular, would help delimit the breadth of the claims which seems to be what the USPTO feels it needs help with. Once they have executable unit tests, it seems like it would be possible to automate the search for prior art.
gwillenover 12 years ago
Unfortunately, I suspect they will not get nearly a proportionate amount of input saying 'software patents delenda est', because the people who feel that way also know that the USPTO is not likely to take their input seriously.
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ommunistover 12 years ago
The fox once wanted to partner with hen, so it went to the farm.
ajbover 12 years ago
"The first topic relates to how to improve clarity of claim boundaries that define the scope of patent protection for claims that use functional language."<p>Or to put it another way, the patent database is a <i>broken datastructure</i>, how do we fix it?<p>I think it's important to take their question seriously, because if we give them serious answers it will bring home why the patent system is more broken for software than for other things.<p>The problem with boundaries is that in ordinary property, the incentives are to make boundaries precise. Each property owner may not mind if it's not obverious that the other guy's property is on the other side, but he wants to be sure all of <i>his</i> property is on his side. This doesn't work in patents. The pushback comes from overstretched bureaucrats, not other property owners. So, an interesting question is, is there a way of changing this so each patent filer has the incentive to police the boundaries of other patents?<p>Imagine that at a given point in time, the patent database included not just the individual patents, but a '20 questions' style index, whereby any patent could be located. Crucially, no patent could be enforced against anything outside the 'bucket' in which it is indexed. (A patent could be indexed in more than one bucket, but only by paying the fee for each.)<p>That would give patent owners the incentive to police the boundaries of the 'buckets', and it would allow people to more easily find patents they might be infringing. It would also make clear which areas of patentable material have endemic fuzzy boundaries, so a case could be made for reform. There are large areas where the questions would be things like 'does it contain an aldehyde group?' where a tree would work well.<p>There is a problem with this as a datastructure, though. Any binary tree has to be rebalanced for searching it to be efficient. Even assuming that everyone can be given the incentive to make the rebalancing happen, it's not obvious how to do this. I need a diagram, I'll use this one: <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/BinaryTreeRotations.svg/300px-BinaryTreeRotations.svg.png" rel="nofollow">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Bin...</a> Suppose we want to do the tree rotation as in the diagram. The problem is, we only know that the the patents descended from 'alpha' have the 'left' answer to the question in the light green node. We don't know how they relate to the question in the darker green node. So after the tree is rotated, we may need to ask that question of all the patents under 'alpha', an O(N) operation (in legal fees!) and then we may need to move some of them under the branch 'gamma', possibly triggering more rebalancing, so it's not obvious that the operation would even terminate.<p>So, question: Can a suitable datastructure be devised?
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JohnFromBuffaloover 12 years ago
I'm sorry but I can't come, because you are not opensource enough for me. It's not you. It's me.
wisslerover 12 years ago
Don't sanction the insanity. It would be better that the situation become so dire and painful that the populace wakes up than that software developers actually help make the software patent system appear as if it is reasonable and can "work" in the long run.
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