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Jeff Atwood Goes Off The Rails

82 pointsby ashleyblackmoreover 12 years ago

14 comments

sethistover 12 years ago
The irony in this article is pretty thick. In his original article, Jeff not so subtly admitted that he considered suicide and therefore likely battled depression as well. Yet Reed says Jeff has "a reckless lack of knowledge about how depression really works". Why does Reed label Jeff as ignorant in both his knowledge of depression and Aaron's situation when Reed himself doesn't know Jeff's?<p>Jeff was simply drawing an analogy to suicide that most of his readers would understand. A small percentage of us have experienced depression while almost all of us have played games. Yes, the annoyance of being quick scoped in Call of Duty can't be compared to the pain of depression, but it doesn't have to be for the analogy to still be helpful. Honestly, I don't think it benefits anyone to be offended by imperfect analogies.
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nemo1618over 12 years ago
Whether or not you want to admit it, I think Jeff said what a lot of us were thinking. Suicide is a unique form of death because it elicits not just sadness, but <i>frustration</i>. Personally, I'm glad he gave those feelings a voice. (And personally, I believe that it's a bad sign if your argument mostly hinges on "I'm offended!")
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miesesover 12 years ago
"depression is a disease"<p>Cure the depressives and you kill a great deal of literature, art, music, and other poetic forms of expression. Even as we approach a world dominated by engineering and social sciences, people will still find a way to be sad, to the benefit of all.
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tnucover 12 years ago
If you take the time to read some of Jeff Atwood's older posts, you will notice more than a few of his posts about people are unsympathetic.<p>He is good at communicating tech issues but crap at describing people issues.
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genwinover 12 years ago
I wouldn't assume that Swartz killed himself because he was depressed per se. He was facing ruination, after all, the likes of which even a strong hardworking person might never recover from. Made worse by the fact that it was a victimless crime. I take the view that a corrupt prosecutor hounded him to his death, and ignore any depression he had.<p>If you haven't already signed the petition: <a href="https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck" rel="nofollow">https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-stat...</a>
LandoCalrissianover 12 years ago
I thought this was going to be about Ruby on Rails...
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rmanginoover 12 years ago
I'd like to thank everyone for your thoughtful replies. There is no black/white or cut/dry arguments here. Most of us, including myself, did not know Aaron; it was not my intention to insinuate otherwise (unlike Jeff who <i>did</i> say, "I never knew Aaron, but I <i>knew</i> Aaron") - emphasis by Jeff. Yes, I'm sure Jeff <i>knew</i> Aaron well enough to write his article.<p>We will never know what pushed Aaron over the edge. His legal issues couldn't have helped matters. That said, my entire point was that relating suicide to ragequitting is an ignorant thing to do and that sentiment belies a practically infinite misunderstanding of why some people with mental illness decide to end their lives.
lizzyracecarover 12 years ago
Offensiveness aside, the analogy Atwood makes is just nonsensical. Ragequitting is storming out in a temper-tantrum, maybe analgous to a school shooting. In this instance, there is no "rage" in evidence. Swarz didn't gave no indication that he meant his suicide to be symbolic or carry a message (as ragequitters do, the message generally being "fuck you all, I'm out of here.") Atwood's whole thesis is flawed.
rmanginoover 12 years ago
Here are some very well written thoughts on suicide by a very talented software engineer (and a depression sufferer):<p><a href="http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2013/01/12/suicide-and-society-where-does-responsibility-for-preventing-suicide-lie/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2013/01/12/suicide-and-society...</a>
6renover 12 years ago
&#62; unbearable pain<p>There's a concept of a transcendent mission or quest, that is worth any effort, any suffering, any pain. It's unreasonable to <i>expect</i> this of anyone - it's just that it's an approach that some have used to transcend suffering.
spoiledtechieover 12 years ago
Well Said.
papaverover 12 years ago
oh please. aaron knew what he was getting into when he broke the law. in the end suicide is the easy way out. depression or not. i don't claim to know what aaron was going threw, but i do know he knew a huge community of people were ready to fight for him, yet he choose the easy way out.
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teajover 12 years ago
Totally forgotten.
funthreeover 12 years ago
&#62; Aaron committed suicide because depression is a disease. Aaron made a very unfortunate choice. Jeff is right in that we lost an amazing person… someone whom we all should have helped. But I can guarantee that Aaron wasn’t thinking of software or what his death would mean to our community when he made his decision. All he wanted to do was stop the pain.<p>I realize this is a touchy subject for lots of people and I dont mean to offend anyone. However, I feel obligated to advocate that Jeff's reasoning may have been that "Aaron was not really depressed, it as a mental and moral choice, he was already playing with all of his cards so it was a strategy" -- If Aaron didnt leave some last words stating his intentions it is hard to say for sure, isnt it? There are many people in human history outside of Christianity who have committed suicide on moral grounds[1] and while I honestly have NO IDEA which way it went, speculating strongly on either perspective seems unwise. There is a wide range of reasons why someone would do something like that. One of them is definitely mental illness and depression, one far less likely reason is the case for honor and morality -- e.g. to continue to strike the enemy and strip the enemy of their ability to attain victory no matter what must be sacrificed of ones self. Since Aaron was already playing with what he deemed "his life" some amount of mental illness could have pushed him over the edge. It could have been one, the other, or a combination of the two. I have no idea which and I dont think anyone really does, maybe Aaron did not even know. But as far as I have read all of the possibilities are on the table... Jeff was reasoning that no matter what the punishment, if the intention is to show that a law is immoral the person breaking the law should go through with being punished by the system to respect the law and have it changed. Since Aaron didn't do that, that is why he went "off the rails"<p>1. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku</a>
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