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Systemd: The Biggest Myths

131 pointsby janerikover 12 years ago

12 comments

betterunixover 12 years ago
Will they have the same attitude as the ConsoleKit/PolicyKit/_Kit people have when someone says, "I need to do something different, but this service is preventing me from doing it?" As an example, I want to set up my system so that one user can play audio even when a different user is "active," yet after hours reading through bug reports about that and mailing list archives, all I could find where these responses:<p>* "Not our fault, it's that other service."<p>* "We are never going to support that. You don't want it anyway."<p>* "Well that will be fixed with systemd"<p>* "You can add the user to the audio group, but that's wrong and you should not do it. You should instead do that thing that the other guys are telling you not to do and that they will never support."<p>* "This will be fixed with systemd!"<p>So, I guess now the question is, when someone comes along and says, "I need to do X, I used to be able to do X before systemd was in use and now systemd is stopping me, how can I fixed that?" will systemd maintainers respond with things like the above? Will there be useful and thorough documentation, so that users can fix things without having to bug the maintainers?
mhurronover 12 years ago
&#62; systemd being Linux-only is not nice to the BSDs.<p>&#62;Completely wrong. The BSD folks are pretty much uninterested in systemd. If systemd was portable, this would change nothing, they still wouldn't adopt it<p>systemd is not portable, it wasn't made to be portable, it relies on far too many linuxisms. Therefore the BSD's don't care about it. It is not 'the BSD's don't care about it so we didn't make it portable.'
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ElliotHover 12 years ago
Benefits to me as a desktop and laptop user of systemd.<p>1) Speed does matter. Fast boots are good. 2) The new journal is just better. Finding something in the logs is easier. 3) Service files are easier to write than init scripts and one can have more confidence they will work as intended as you need write very little configuration oneself. 4) Knowledge of dependencies means I never have to worry about starting dbus before gdm. It just does what is necessary to do the correct thing.<p>I personally want all of those things. I am really happy they came to Arch and Fedora. They both feel much more modern for it. Working on systems that use older init systems now feels archaic.<p>Let's move with the times. I remember the same set of complaints when we got NetworkManager. I remember the same complaints with PulseAudio.<p>Guess what? I now have systems with excellent networking and excellent sound.
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zdwover 12 years ago
Given the title, I'll allow that most of these points are defensive and brusque. Unfortunately, this tends to be par for the course for the developer, and I think that turns people off.<p>Fundamentally, systemd tried solving too many problems at once, in a ways that inadvertently annoyed people. It replaced so much of the core infrastructure that upgrading systems resulted in an admin experience that feels alien. Giving people new tools to deal with things like binary logging != instantly changing every admin's CLI muscle memory.<p>I'm not saying that systemd doesn't solve valid problems (the issues it addresses are truly quite important) - it just goes about it in a dramatically jarring way.
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coutover 12 years ago
I don't want systemd because I don't trust Lennart Poettering to be able to write reliable code.
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lucian1900over 12 years ago
The intensity of people's hate for this guy is mind-boggling. Most of the stuff he made is really nice, proven by the fact that it's being used widely without issues.<p>Even without such an impressive track-record, people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt.<p>Even a cursory look into systemd design debunks most of the "criticism" people have against it.
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howeycover 12 years ago
&#62; 13. Myth: systemd being Linux-only is not nice to the BSDs.<p>&#62; Completely wrong. The BSD folks are pretty much uninterested in systemd. If systemd was portable, this would change nothing, they still wouldn't adopt it.<p>&#62; 15. Myth: systemd could be ported to other kernels if its maintainers just wanted to.<p>&#62; That is simply not true. Porting systemd to other kernel is not feasible. We just use too many Linux-specific interfaces.<p>So what happens to software written for Linux that can be (and currently is) ported to BSD when it starts to require systemd?
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thaumaturgyover 12 years ago
3. I don't understand the desire to trim seconds off of boot-up time (even assuming that systemd does this; it didn't for me). The goal should be to restart less often, not to restart more quickly.<p>5. The systemd documentation is indeed very good, and that's probably one of the biggest drivers behind its adoption. However, it is <i>also</i> difficult. A big part of the pushback from people over systemd is that it <i>also</i> replaced syslog, and did so with its own custom binary log format. To quote from a forum thread I started shortly after updating my old system to systemd, "Getting smbd/nmbd to work again was a real adventure. Like other users reported, it would just silently fail when starting it from systemd. No error message when issuing the start command, and only a vague "failed" in status. I ended up having to track down Lennart's blog post on "systemd for administrators" to figure out how in blazes to extract anything useful from that cussed binary log system he invented. My first half-dozen or so attempts to get anything useful out of the log journal got exactly zero results; I finally got lucky on another approach..." (I ended up abandoning that distribution altogether after that and a number of other frustrations, and the response from the forums.)<p>13. The problem for BSDs isn't so much that systemd is or isn't portable to them; it's that some upstream software is beginning to <i>require</i> systemd, making that software difficult (or impossible) to port to BSD.<p>14. It seems weird to me to hear someone else decide for other people what is or isn't a "negligible" amount of work.<p>15. So ... systemd is in fact Linux-only by design. How does that jive with 13 again?<p>19. systemd may not "force" you to do anything, up until your distribution adopts it, pushes it as an update, and then you find yourself spending hours trying to figure out how to troubleshoot a problem that didn't exist before the update. Then it certainly <i>is</i> forcing you to do something.<p>Here's the problem in a nut shell as I see it: if systemd had been the default in Linux for the last ten years, probably the tool chain around it would be mature enough to meet everyone's needs, we would all be accustomed to the specific commands needed to control and interact with and debug systemd stuff, and if someone came along and proposed replacing everything with a syslog daemon and a pile of init scripts, there'd be rage and outcry. That is to say, I don't see anything <i>inherently</i> bad about systemd.<p>But, what <i>is</i> enormously frustrating is to have something that works, and be well adapted to it, so that if something breaks I know exactly where to look, and then have all of that be replaced by a foreign system that breaks old things in new ways and requires hours spent trying to figure out what the hell happened.<p>If the replacement system offers serious benefits over the old system, that offsets the pain slightly. In this case, I've yet to see what the actual benefits are; I have no idea what problems systemd is attempting to solve which are so severe, so immediate, so intractable that they require a jarring change to some of the fundamental parts of the operating system.
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delinkaover 12 years ago
<p><pre><code> 6. Myth: systemd is not modular. Not true at all. At compile time you have a number of ... </code></pre> So it's only modular at compile time. This seems like a negative to me.
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mseepgoodover 12 years ago
Most "arguments" I read are are either ad-hominem or ad-pulseaudionem attacks.
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Nitenover 12 years ago
This article from last August hits the nail on the head with regard to systemd:<p><a href="http://www.pappp.net/?p=969" rel="nofollow">http://www.pappp.net/?p=969</a><p>"I’m not sure that this is a bad design, but it is most definitely not UNIX or anything like it."
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ragenzover 12 years ago
Myth 31: "I heard it was written by web developers."
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