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German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

99 pointsby clbrookover 12 years ago

18 comments

doktrinover 12 years ago
&#62; <i>Many Germans believe the scandals are rooted in their abiding respect, and even lust, for academic accolades, including the use of Prof. before Dr. and occasionally Dr. DR. for those with two doctoral degrees.</i><p>&#62; <i>Prof. Dr. Wanka got her doctorate in 1980, the same year as Dr. Schavan.</i><p>While the title-compounding effect did strike me as comical, this did force me to reflect a bit on our own worship of pedigree. Anyone who's spent any time on Angel List has undoubtedly been treated to "founders from stanford &#38; MIT", "started by Berkeley students", "MBA from Chicago", etc.<p>These are, of course, almost apples and oranges (double-doctorates vs undergrad / masters), but credentialing is certainly alive and well here in the US. Scott Thompson @ yahoo is a particularly recent public example.
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aaron695over 12 years ago
Ummmm Education Minister who (allegedly) cheated at university forced to step down.<p>Don't really see that as a "Fascination With Degrees"<p>Might have been a interesting topic, but it's a hopeless segue.
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Hermelover 12 years ago
Yes, the Germans value degrees.<p>But Ms Shavan having to step back has nothing to do with that. This is not about her degree, this is about her having cheated. The Germans are very sensitive in this regard. A few years ago, a minister got into serious trouble because he used the frequent flier miles obtained as a minister for a private flight.
floppyspinnerover 12 years ago
This whole discussion reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Player Piano. Sadly no such reference has been made yet. Maybe that's because not a lot of Germans have read it. Anyway, it sheds the whole discussion in a new light. The person in charge of education and research should not plagiarize, no doubt, but in general, if a person proves consistently that they can do their job, isn't the degree system that's supposed to determine who is able to do a particular job a little too rigid and deserves to be undermined? On the other hand there's the real hard work of those who don't cheat, and they'll demand justice. A difficult problem.
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piloochover 12 years ago
The German hierarchy in academia is unbelievable. Few years back I moved from a federal lab in California to a state lab in Germany. I felt abashed at the extravagant praise of the head professor there.<p>Also, the Prof. Dr. thing on business cards used to make me laugh, until I could grasp the whole system, and how detrimental it was for students (high pressure, never ending hierarchy, blind worship, ...).
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lutuspover 12 years ago
The Germans may lust after advanced degrees, but we Americans might not want to call the kettle black -- it's well-established that we struggle to acquire Ph.D. degrees even though, on average, this choice produces a <i>decline in income and employment</i> compared to a "professional" degree:<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm</a>
roel_vover 12 years ago
"“I just think that many Germans have a police gene in their genetic makeup,”"<p>Lol, discussion Godwin'ed by the OP itself - the NYT, no less.
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rbanffyover 12 years ago
I think our discussion focused on the degrees themselves misses the point. What we see here is plain dishonest conduct. Not having a PhD is acceptable. Plagiarism is not - and shouldn't be.
cnvogelover 12 years ago
I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work.<p>Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to endanger politicians careers.<p>I mean, it was fun to try and hunt down politicians theses but hardly would have anyone expected that a politician could loose his mandate over them. Furthermore these theses most often had been written in "the old days", and were available only on special request from a few libraries where they were collecting dust for years in some non-publicly-accessible storage room for books no one ever borrows.<p>But then came Karl Theodor zu Guttenberg, whose thesis (written just 2007) started the whole debate about misgotten degrees in 2011. He had dismissed all charges about having cheated with unprecedented arrogance. Even though claiming to live up to higher standards, himself being a whealthy aristocrat, he had wholesale-copy-pasted the whole work from undisclosed sources, some even produced by the parliament's research service for him.<p>By additionally handling the resulting public-relations disaster pretty inapt, he gave a unbelieveably strong boost to the plagiatism-finders, who normally would have been ridiculed as nickpicking footnote and quotation-mark-counters. Now they were the judges for the integrity of a large number of public persons.<p>Anette Schavan is only one of many persons accused of copying a relatively few paragraphs in her thesis, not even on the same scale as Karl-Theodor, this theses would never have created the current public outcry if not preceeded by Karl-Theodor's.<p>And she's even defended by a lot of academics that claim that this amount of un-disclosed copying, 30 years ago, would be on a level that's would not warrant the whole process that has now started and led to her demissal. I mean, she probably has written that manuscript on a mechanical typewriter, with drafts written by hand, not assisted by a software marking handling quotations automatically!<p>But universities are under a high pressure to show a merciless approach in re-evaluating these theses, and unfortunately there isn't even a limitation-period after which given titles would be incontestable, and hence what appears to be the current obsession with titles in Germany.<p>-- References :-)<p>- <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg#Doctorate_plagiarism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg#Doct...</a><p>- The "Guttenplag" wiki has a graph (and statistics): 94% of pages, 64% of lines have copies of foreign text without attribution: <a href="http://de.guttenplag.wikia.com/wiki/GuttenPlag_Wiki" rel="nofollow">http://de.guttenplag.wikia.com/wiki/GuttenPlag_Wiki</a><p>- This side shows pages in red that contain foreign material without attribution: <a href="http://schavanplag.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://schavanplag.wordpress.com/</a>
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jk4930over 12 years ago
1. Once Germany was a leading intellectual, scientific, and engineering powerhouse. Academic titles still have some cultural significance. It might be a kind of a relict.<p>2. It's worse in Austria.
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o1iverover 12 years ago
How is it that such dishonest people become leaders in our countries? I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity!
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opminionover 12 years ago
<i>“title arousal.”</i><p>If the Germans had a fascination with degrees, they wouldn't have Mercedes engineers without a university degree <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16159943" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16159943</a>
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rmk2over 12 years ago
This article seems to not mention another important fact for Schavan: If she loses the Doctorate, she will <i>not have any degree whatsoever</i>. The Doctorate is the only degree she ever did, she does not hold a Magister. (→ Grundständige Promotion)<p>The English wikipedia entry has that added by now, however, it doesn't list any sources...so in that sense:<p><a href="http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/8/153683" rel="nofollow">http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/8/153683</a> &#38; <a href="http://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/plagiatsaffaere-ohne-doktor-haette-schavan-nur-noch-abitur/7255390.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/plagiatsaffaere-ohne-...</a><p>edit: Also, leave it to a right-wing Prof. Dr. from Munich to call all Germans crypto-fascist because of their degree fixation. Oh, the irony... → <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_Rhenania_Freiburg" rel="nofollow">https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_Rhenania_Freiburg</a>
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anovikovover 12 years ago
Any formal system like that is bad because it's too easy to hack - and that's what they got. Good for America that you don't care much about degrees. After all, a day's long test task is enough to separate good candidates from bad for everything except maybe senior management positions.
msvanover 12 years ago
If someone chooses to spend several years of her life only in order to get a few letters in front of her name, that's her problem. Meanwhile, the rest of us can get out there and do something productive. Degree obsession is a choice.
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16sover 12 years ago
They are <i></i><i>academic royalty</i><i></i>, however, God did not give them royal divinity, Universities did.<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings</a>
woodpanelover 12 years ago
<i>Germans place a greater premium on doctorates than Americans do as marks of distinction and erudition. [...] According to the Web site Research in Germany, about 25,000 Germans earn doctorates each year, the most in Europe and about twice the per capita rate of the United States.</i><p>Visiting a university in Germany is almost free. More people having a "Diplom" degree means that if you want to stand out you have to aim for a "Doktor". (I use "Diplom" and "Doktor" here since the mentioned fraud-cases stem from a time without bachelors and masters) - that's the easy explanation.<p><i>Here in the homeland of schadenfreude, the zeal for unmasking academic frauds also reflects certain Teutonic traits, including a rigid adherence to principle and a know-it-all streak.</i><p>I wouldn't subscribe to the word "fetish" but there is a certain "Teutonic Trait" here and the acadmic fraud cases are just one symptom of something deeper.<p><i>People in this society, contrary to what many of them claim, feel a deep need for an authority to follow. [...] It's in them to worship authority and to totally rely on it.[...] It makes sense to me that a strong and faithful believer [...], can in his disappointment become so venomous when, as he feels, that authority has failed him. It's this huge disappointment that turns blind obedience into an uncontrolled need for slaughter.</i> - <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Hitlers-Room-American-ebook/dp/B005WZYWA2" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Hitlers-Room-American-ebook/dp/B...</a> (a funny but often stupid book, nonetheless I think here the author has a point on us Germans)<p>A society, keen for authority, provides a reliable way for elite offspring to fill the upper ranks of politics or public service. Our fraternities are almost always tied to one of the two major political parties (SPD or CDU). While beeing a great asset for students after graduation (Alumni-Network) their main service for that offspring is to use all the dirty tricks to get you your (law) diploma. Since these student bodies are very old and established, they often fill the ranks of the personnel in the universities. They might be the ones doing the evaluation of your thesis. They can provide you with the tests beforehand and even if they can't they usually keep log of every test written by a professor, so they can provide you at least with a good approximation of future tests.<p>It doesn't wonder that there's an established market for ghostwriters providing you those titles, since you have so many people using that "reliable path to power" that don't seek the academic or professional acceptance at all. Most of Germany's politicians are lawyers and most of them never seen a court from the inside.<p>For me, this Title-Thing is a teutonic trait but it's not tied to genes but tied to culture. And culture can change. This German Title-Mania is getting less. For instance, you don't have to own a "Meister"-Title to open up certain businesses anymore since recently. How this disposal of the "Meisterpflicht" (allowance to open a business is tied to having a Meister-Title, by law) came upon, though, tells about the difference between Germany and the US: It wasn't a succesful grassroot kind of story, demanding personal/economic freedom, but an order from the EU.<p>And the sentence "an order from above" sums up pretty much every German right or freedom we were entitled to during our history. That makes us prone to dislinkg "game-changers" because, if you spent time obeying the rules, you won't loose on that investment by letting others take shortcuts. This translates to less career changers than in the US, and a higher stigma if you do. It translates to total absence of entrepreneurs or acclaimed business people from entering a political race, because social envy gives them no cance there. This translates to parts of our Acadamia being a thought free market of status. We don't have an american culture of self-education. And the term "Populärwissenschaft", scientists releasing books for the masses, is considered an insult in German Acadamia.
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steschover 12 years ago
The real scandal is that somebody studying catholic theology can become education minister.
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