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Stupid, Stupid xBox

338 pointsby cekover 12 years ago

30 comments

GuiAover 12 years ago
<i>"how it is crushing its original console competitors"</i><p>Previous gen:<p>&#62; Xbox sales: 24 million<p>&#62; PS2 sales: 153 million<p>Current gen:<p>&#62; Xbox 360 sales: 76 million<p>&#62; Wii sales: 100 million<p>&#62; PS3 sales: 70 million<p>(all data from each console's respective Wikipedia)<p>How is it "crushing" its competitors?<p>Otherwise, I bought an XBox360 recently to get the Kinect for openFrameworks hacking and played a little bit with the console. All the points in the article regarding the UI are spot on - it is TERRIBLE to use. Nintendo's UIs are no reference either, but at least they're functional, while Sony's XMB is actually quite good (although the PS Vita's OS is a horrible thing to behold, which is scary for the PS4).
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WestCoastJustinover 12 years ago
He has a massive point -- "<i>Why can’t I write a game for xBox tomorrow using $100 worth of tools and my existing Windows laptop and test it on my home xBox or at my friends’ houses</i>".<p>I am wiling to guess that game development will follow the path of app stores. Consoles like the OUYA [1] will start to take over. The cycle from development to distribution will be cut by orders of magnitude. xBox needs to get on it and so do the other consoles!<p>[1] <a href="http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console" rel="nofollow">http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-...</a>
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theevocaterover 12 years ago
I've been shouting this for as long as I could: Once Apple (or maybe an Android company or even someone new) enters this market in earnest, Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo should take watch.<p>Apple has the infrastructure to deliver games, has tiny/medium/large touch devices that can connect via bluetooth in many customers hands (which already play games), and many many game developers familiar with the platforms. Every big studio has an iDevice team and there are hundreds of good iPhone games out there. If Apple can position the AppleTV as a console (maybe open it up to developers) or build something more along the lines of a traditional console, they will crush.<p>You can already do cool stuff like stream the game to the TV via airplay and use the device for a score/map screen (basically a WiiU) and it works surprisingly well and doesn't need cords or anything.<p>The only other real competitor here I see is one of the bigger android vendors like Sony or Samsung. If Sony could get the company in shape and stop producing products that compete with each other, they have many of the same advantages as Apple. They have android devices, experience making console/tv/etc hardware and even own game studios. They make every kind of electronic that goes in the tv room. But Sony has had this for years so that seems unlikely. They have already had huge employee slashes and are floundering.<p>Samsung has the same thing going on. They make everything and they have huge android phone/tablet penetration. I could see them easily jumping in on this and I hope they do. More competition blowing the doors of this stagnant industry could lead to a renaissance of smaller game studios.<p><i></i>EDIT<i></i> I should add that Valve also has a chance here. There are many rumors swarming about a valve console or something similar. They have the distribution system and the games market experience, but have no experience with how to make hardware. Remember the last time that happened? I believe they called it the "red ring of death". I'm not saying valve can't pull it off but hardware is <i>hard</i> to get right. I look forward to what they do.
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tibbonover 12 years ago
The modern round of game systems are quite flawed from a UI/UX perspective, as the author here points out.<p>My Playstation 3 forces me to do various updates to watch Netflix (which is what I use the system for 90% of the time). All of the systems ask you to input text in a super-awkward way to setup various aspects of the system (on-screen keyboards really suck for typing in complex WPA2 passwords).<p>The XBox 360 is the most annoying by far, as it <i>constantly</i> bothers me about signing onto Microsoft Live. There were some fraudulent transactions on my account (which I thought was super-odd, because I use lengthy/unique passwords on everything), which Microsoft (after a 30-day period) refunded to my bank account. But I haven't been able to sign onto XBL since, and haven't really bothered to call Microsoft for support. The PS3 doesn't constantly bash my head in with sales and random junk when I just want to watch Netflix. Also, Microsoft seems to think that UI changes every 18 months is a <i>great</i> idea. They don't seem to add much value.<p>Sadly, the Wii has been turned on maybe three times. It kinda feels like a dinosaur at this point. I use my Raspberry Pi more these days for gaming...
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mieubrisseover 12 years ago
Though I can't speak to the internal politics of Microsoft, I can say that as a gamer I don't remember ever getting upset at the pain points the author listed. Granted, I'm coming from a technical background (as are most people here), so I'm obviously not in the perspective of the small child the author sometimes takes in the picture captions. However, I feel there's a tension between the complexity of an application and the affordances it provides. To use one of the author's examples, choosing where to save an update (a useful affordance to have, I think) requires that the user suffer a bit more complexity. In my experience, the xBox doesn't manage this complexity poorly.<p>That being said, the author has a strong point in regards to the indie game market. Game development could and should be as simple as it is on Android because the platform's support is there... it's just locked behind layers of legal and financial obstacles. I'd love to see an xBox Live market where indie games are strongly promoted, and I can't imagine the cost to Microsoft would be strong enough to outweigh the revenue gains they'd make if they took a percentage of sales.
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Kronopathover 12 years ago
This is a very revealing article:<p>- It gives official confirmation of the (somewhat obvious) idea that the XBox was a defensive move against general living-room entertainment boxes.<p>- It shows that he has a very distorted view of the gaming landscape, if the truly thinks that the XBox is the dominant platform, or that mobile games are a genuine threat to console gaming (they most certainly are not).<p>- He singles out <i>Apple</i> of all companies, as the biggest threat to mobile gaming, despite the fact that Apple doesn't seem to be too interested in anything other than simple 99¢ iOS apps, dismissing the companies like Nintendo who, for all their recent troubles, have a long and storied history with gaming that Microsoft can only hope to compete with.<p>- He brings some good points about the interface though. But that's honestly not the XBox's biggest problem.
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cekover 12 years ago
I think it's funny how Nat capitalizes "xBox". The official capitalization that was finally settled on was "Xbox". It annoys the marketing people to no end when people capitalize it wrong.<p>I always thought xBox looked cooler.
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InclinedPlaneover 12 years ago
I see a couple comments here, including the highest voted top level comment, questioning how the xbox can be "crushing" their competition given that a straightforward reading of console sales indicates things aren't so cut and dried.<p>However, the xbox is crushing its competition, in several ways, and let me explain why a naive reading of unit sales is misleading.<p>Many consoles sell at a loss, especially initially, or on a very small margin, console sales alone are meaningless. Console sales themselves just serve to expand the player base, enabling follow on game and service sales where the vast majority of the profit to the console maker and of course to the game makers comes from.<p>Here's where things get interesting. Nintendo has always sold everything at a profit, so they've never lost money on incremental console sales. However, again that margin is still fairly small, what they need is game sales. And for the Wii that's been a disaster. They sold a huge amount of consoles but a lot of the people who own them don't play them very much, and they don't buy many games. This is a big reason why Nintendo has stopped making a profit overall as a company the last few quarters, which has been rather disastrous for them.<p>Now let's look at Sony. They started off with a crazy console design, which is almost an experimental prototype device, this is not the sort of thing one usually does with a console. The result was that the hardware of the console was hugely expensive, which meant that they were losing a huge amount of money on every console sale, about the same as the cost of a Wii. This meant that Sony needed to have strong follow-on game sales to make up for such huge loses. However, because the console was so difficult to develop for they struggled with game availability for a long time. Eventually these factors started to become less of a problem. Multi-platform game engines eventually matured sufficiently to where it wasn't a huge problem to target PS3/360/PC releases for most games, and that has helped PS3's game library tremendously, in addition to a very small handful of excellent exclusive titles (such as Little Big Planet, Heavy Rain, etc.) Also, eventually Sony managed to reduce the hardware cost of the PS3 down to a point where they weren't bleeding money on each sale so horrifically. However, despite all of this improvement it's questionable whether the PS3 has made a total profit for Sony overall, and if it has it's likely not very large. Worse yet, a lot of Sony's big efforts such as the playstation network and the Sony Move have not taken off and not garnered much enthusiasm in the market.<p>And then we get to the 360. This console certainly has its fair share of problems and debacles. At launch it was definitely sold at a loss to the company. It struggled with reliability problems and expensive warranty extensions through many of the early hardware iterations. And sales in Japan have always been weak. But, somehow it managed to come out ahead. The 360 never sold at as much of a loss as the PS3 and it didn't take long for them to get to a point where they reduced hardware costs enough to make a profit on console sales. Even with the expensive $1 billion warranty extension their balance sheet on pure hardware alone is far, far better than Sony's, which means that MS actually needs to sell fewer games per console to come out ahead in total profit. As it turns out, people who own 360s are far more active gamers than people who own other consoles. They play for more hours per month, and they spend more money on games. Of all of the consoles currently on store shelves, the 360 has the highest multiple of average number of follow-on game purchases per console. But it doesn't stop there. The Kinect add-on has been one of the most popular consumer electronics devices in history. Also, whereas every major competing online multiplayer service is offered for free (Steam, Origin, PSN), Microsoft's Xbox Live Gold service costs money. On its own it has subscription volume and costs similar to the most successful MMOs in existence (such as WoW). That's a testament to the sheer volume of people who think that Microsoft's service offering is valuable enough to pay cold hard cash for, but it also, of course, goes straight to Microsoft's bottom line, to the tune of around a billion dollars per year. And because it's a digital service the development costs are fairly low. But wait, there's more. In addition to game sales, xbox players are also more likely to purchase DLC packs and other digital content such as xbox live arcade games. Again the incremental costs on these digital goods are fairly low so Microsoft (and the game publishers) make a much higher margin on them.<p>What does this all mean? Several things. First, in total Microsoft has been far better at consistently extracting significant profits from the gaming market over the lifetime of the current console generation. Second, Microsoft has far more momentum in terms of game sales and customer loyalty and enthusiasm than the other console players. Third, Microsoft is making far more headway than other console makers in earning revenue from digital goods and services, where the profit margins are the highest. Fourth, many game makers find that they make a lot more money from the xbox versions of their products, which helps ensure that exclusive games that aren't on the xbox are a rarity.<p>And this is precisely why this year we will see all 3 companies release new consoles, and why Nintendo has already done so. Because without a significant disruption in the status quo the result is that the xbox will continue to outpace everyone else, and continue to gobble up more and more market share and gaming revenue. Nintendo is trying to give themselves a chance to stay relevant. And Sony is trying to put themselves on a new footing. And Microsoft is trying to hold onto what they have or extend their lead.<p>Note that I intentionally left out a lot of complicating elements such as competition from PC and mobile/tablet gaming, introduction of new console makers, etc. That may play a role in the future but it hasn't played a significant role in the fight between the different home consoles so far.
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tobyjsullivanover 12 years ago
The segment about terrible error messages really resonated with me. I was actually just thinking yesterday about how, after so many years, Windows errors on personal/home computers still tell you to talk to your "system administrator". Microsoft has never understood the basics of the personal market. Bad UX is in their blood.
grannyg00seover 12 years ago
"...experiencing your competitor’s stumbling failure (yes, Sony, Nintendo – you are, I’m afraid, stumbling failures)."<p>Can someone explain how Sony and Nintendo are stumbling failures in the console market? How extreme their failure must be, to feel comfortable stating it as a common fact requiring no explanation! I must be way out of touch.
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nthitzover 12 years ago
My Xbox is the only product/service I use where I feel that I am directly interacting with Microsoft. For me, the Xbox is the last area where Microsoft is relavent.
OmarIsmailover 12 years ago
I don't know if people on HN are following the rumors related to the next-gen consoles, but it looks like MS is going to be addressing at least one of these issues: UI fluidity. If the rumors are accurate, then MS has a multi-pronged approach to making the UI a lot more fluid. While the 360 reserved 32MB of RAM for the OS, rumors suggest that MS is reserving 3GB (out of a total of 8GB).<p>Furthermore, MS is apparently using a hardware-based display plane system where there are 4 independent display buffers that can be refreshed/displayed at different resolutions and framerates. 3 of the display planes are for the game to use (one for the HUD, 1 for foreground, 1 background) and 1 plane dedicated to the OS.<p>I do 110% agree with the author that having a more app-store like ecosystem would be absolutely huge, and if MS were to properly implement, would let them compete vs Apple.<p>If I had the money I'd buy both MS and Apple stock, because one of them is in the best position to win the living room in the next 5 years.
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soundsover 12 years ago
Since it isn't clear in the article, ilikecode.wordpress.com is Nat Brown: <a href="http://kotaku.com/164683/a-brief-history-of-the-xbox" rel="nofollow">http://kotaku.com/164683/a-brief-history-of-the-xbox</a><p>He's commenting on this thread too as natbro.
pkmaysover 12 years ago
Developing for the console seems really harsh.<p>Somewhat related, an indie company managed to get a fighting game out on PSN and XBLA. It just got an update on PS3, but it can't get updated for Xbox because the patch is bigger than 4MB. [1]<p>Keep in mind, these are free updates that fix bugs and stability issues, not paid DLC. Even so, patching is really, really expensive. [2]<p>[1] <a href="http://shoryuken.com/2013/01/08/skullgirls-xbox-360-patch-delayed-due-to-size-limitations-four-to-five-dlc-characters-originally-planned/" rel="nofollow">http://shoryuken.com/2013/01/08/skullgirls-xbox-360-patch-de...</a><p>[2] <a href="http://kotaku.com/5884842/wait-it-costs-40000-to-patch-a-console-game" rel="nofollow">http://kotaku.com/5884842/wait-it-costs-40000-to-patch-a-con...</a>
jpxxxover 12 years ago
The console industry used to sell high-end wedding cakes. Now they sell wedding cakes, some sheet cakes, and occasionally a pre-boxed slice if there are leftovers. These are your only options for snacking in the living room. You order a wedding cake, go pick it up in a few days, and hope it tastes good.<p>They are about to find out what happens when piping hot cookies are hand-delivered in 30 seconds or less to the living room, for free.<p>The only thing Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo have going for them right now is that the iPhone and iPad are drawing away virtually all of Apple's not-inconsiderable attention.<p>Here's how it will work: Apple will release a $99 controller. It'll look like a SNES controller mated with an iPhone 3GS: 4" standard-resolution multitouch screen, D-pad, four buttons, two shoulder buttons, and a Lightning port. (Inside is NOBODY CARES. gyro, bluetooth, Wifi, iOS SOC, battery.) And, naturally, it will be the least embarrassing looking item in your living room.<p>You'll take it out of the box, type in your Wifi password, log in to iCloud, and THAT IS IT.<p>The Apple TV (of which there are millions already installed) leaps into action. All the plumbing is silently set up, the App Store icon appears, a free showpiece game immediately offers to install itself, and Apple connects a half billion users to the television overnight.<p>Most of the Wii U's best controller ideas are co-opted, the overall controller complexity is a scant third of anyone else's, it retains all the power of touch controls, it requires no complicated setup whatsoever, all the game state is cloud-backed, dozens of touch-resistant game genres suddenly find a home in the lowest-walled garden of any shipping console, customers can add more controllers if desired, and the whole panoply of mobile software can infiltrate the last screen standing.<p>The Apple TV is a freaking trojan horse, if Apple wants it to be. Nobody else has the UX to stave them off, or the ability to hit the price points Apple can, or their sheer distribution power, or their sheer brand power, or anything.<p>Free cookies. Not nut-and-raisin filled wedding cakes. Which one is your kid going to reach for?
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manicdeeover 12 years ago
Why can't you write software tomorrow and have it available to xBox customers the next day? Why can't that other malware author have his Trojan ready to install on millions of xBoxes?<p>If you are going to sell to console users you have to accept that the platform will live or die based on how easy it is for consumers to use, and how safe they feel using it. The platform will need developers, but it doesn't have to cater to their every whim to survive.<p>Developers are only important as far as providing reliable and trustworthy applications is concerned. The gatekeeper of the market needs to ensure that software sold through their market doesn't hurt their customers.<p>Believing that making life easy for all developers (altruistic and malicious alike) is The One True Way to platform popularity is placing far to much emphasis on the small group of people responsible for supply, and nowhere near enough emphasis on the customers.<p>Follow the money, take care of the people supplying it. If some developers get upset along the way because the world doesn't work the way they want, just shrug and carry on.<p>I would have no trust for a market that would let me publish the software I write. I write crap :(
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d23over 12 years ago
For the love of all that is holy, please make the font darker.
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mkentover 12 years ago
Having recently fired it up again the xbox experience (outside of xbla) remains decidedly old school:<p>- You still need the correct dvd inserted to play.<p>- You can't turn the xbox off and expect it to save your progress.<p>- Some games are tightly integrated with xbox live, good luck not paying for it.<p>- It takes forever between the xbox boot time, initial game load time, copyright notices, in game menus, and save game load time to actually <i>start</i> enjoying a game.<p>- Installing games to the hard drive for a slight load time bump is very, very slow.<p>Since picking one up I've been really spoiled by the ipad mini. Just pick it up and play, don't sweat the details.
Benferhatover 12 years ago
I hate the Xbox 360 because they make it so hard to stream video to it. What the hell, Microsoft? The PS3 is a great DLNA renderer right out of the box.
ernover 12 years ago
To add to OP's usability gripes, as a new Xbox owner (bought it over Christmas) with a grand total of 4 bundled games and a Kinect:<p>Kinect menu interaction needs to be improved. Kinect Adventures has it right for its age group, showing a full mirror image of the user on its menus, but Kinect Sports is a mess of deeply nested menus, which my 4 year old, who has been able to navigate an iPad since age 2, can't get right yet. Dance Central uses an un-intuitive swipe from right-to-left, that took a while for me to figure out. I suppose controllerless UX is still in its infancy, but still...<p>Then we get to the sign in system: the sign-in, sign-out is very confusing, and in Kinect Sports, almost useless - I never know who the second player is going to be. I also have a very weak mental model of how Kinect ID facial recognition works -at what point are you signed into a game?<p>I still don't really understand XBox Live vs XBox Live Gold. Why should I subscribe for utility apps I already have, or to use a clunky web browser?<p>Oh yes, and no NTFS support, on a Microsoft platform.
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WestCoastJustinover 12 years ago
After letting the article percolate for a bit. Just think about what the industry will look like in 10 years.<p>- internet game distribution is going to change content delivery just like it changed VHF/DVD rental stores. The game stores will be gone, walmart will not display/sell them.<p>- those who can provide a pipeline like netflix for games are going to destroy the current establishment. It will likely be worse than what netflix did, simply because the development of games is easy compared it TV/Movies.<p>- the idea of xbox, playstation, wii might be gone. There might be a generic console with an online pipeline connected to it. Or maybe you will have a xbox, playstation, wii portal that will connect you to the pipeline just like what netflix does for movies?<p>Maybe I'm just talking out my ass but it looks like things are going to massively change.
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sunjainover 12 years ago
Game consoles are irrelevant from point of view of gaining/retaining big chunk of consumer market. There is a reason why Apple avoided this market (instead of focussing on music, then phone and of course tablet), while Microsoft was busy competing with Sonys and Ninentendos in early formative years of Xbox. In less than five years, this whole game console thing will be a feature in TV/tablet etc.
ChrisNorstromover 12 years ago
<i>I have heard people still there arguing that the transition of the brand from hardcore gamers to casual users and tv-uses was an intentional and crafted success. It was not. It was an accident </i><p>Oh common man, YES it was intentional. MS worked its ass off on transitioning to casual users. Changing the ENTIRE UI, the addition of Avatars (MS's version of Nintendo's Miis), the advertising and marketing.
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hoodoofover 12 years ago
This article is spot on. Why are indie developers not racing to develop apps for Xbox? Xbox should treat all apps, games, music, radio stations as equal, be they from indie developers, microsoft or from big name publishers. Provide a seamless tile space navigable via touchscreen.<p>Oh, no wait, Apple is doing this already, and when it comes to the TV, we'll stop wishing Xbox could do it.
endlessvoid94over 12 years ago
I've also been yelling this to my friends for some time. I actually can't figure out why Apple hasn't yet released an Apple TV with a more powerful graphics and some active cooling, plus a controller.<p>Allow iOS games and you have a serious, serious competition crushing game platform with a TON of existing games and content. Instantly.
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teamonkeyover 12 years ago
It seems obvious to me that the next Xbox will support small developers via some form of the Windows App Store. No point having a unified App Store if that wasn't to be the case. I feel there's a strong chance that many existing apps will Just Work on the next Xbox.
fmischelover 12 years ago
I think it's interesting that to note that the article stated a 60% YOY decline even though their stock price hasn't reflected this. For the past three years the stock has stayed relatively within the same levels. But nonetheless a very interesting post.
gfodorover 12 years ago
Mark my words in 5 years time it will be Valve and Apple in the living room. Sony, MS, and yes, for real this time, Nintendo are done. The wave has crested and basically Samsung and Google are the only other companies who are trying to ride it.
hoodoofover 12 years ago
Does Steve Ballmer ever read articles like this?
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recoiledsnakeover 12 years ago
Apple isn't making much money at all with the 30% cut of app sales. Their margins are huge on the iDevices. Since XBox is sold near cost, the move to 99c games and apps will just increase the costs needed to approve games while providing little profit or benefit to MS. Increasing the cost of hardware is another option but that's not easy either. Staying at the niche of high end games and including lots of media content is probably the better option.
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