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Millennium Challenge 2002 - military simulation

99 pointsby mike_esspeabout 12 years ago

14 comments

542458about 12 years ago
The Wikipedia article doesn't really communicate what happened very well IMHO. This experiment was never designed to examine the combat capabilities of the US Navy. It was designed to test concepts related to a new concept called Net-centric warfare. It was a new concept to handle information and the sharing of information. In order to test this concept under different conditions, things had to be scripted so that those conditions would occur and the information dissemination concept could be examined. <i>What this Van Riper did is similar to helping somebody practice football kick returns, but instead of helping, just repeatedly running regular offensive formations.</i><p>I'm not necessarily saying Riper was wrong, but I just wanted to point out that the motivation for the reset runs deeper than "the games were designed to let blue win".
bcoatesabout 12 years ago
I get Van Riper's point, but at the same time he was given an impossibly powerful position -- a military force with the sole objective of military victory without any underlying political objective.<p>If this were a real war, with an underlying political situation, and Red sank an Blue aircraft carrier and killed 20,000 sailors in a day in a preemptive strike, Blue would respond with rules of engagement that would redefine the term "atrocity". This wouldn't make for a useful military exercise, and I don't think anyone wants to see the US military practicing simulated genocide just to maintain realism.
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rangibabyabout 12 years ago
Basically, the low-tech commander "hacked" the wargame by using his forces effectively in unexpected ways. The USA invasion force cheated by bringing dead forces back to life (respawning?!) and forcing the enemy to do what they were "meant to".<p>If only it were that easy in real life.
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jessriedelabout 12 years ago
I've heard this story before and don't necessarily doubt it, but it does seem a bit romantic. Fits too easily in with everyone's favorite criticism of the military. Does anyone have a version not based on Riper's account?
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alan_cxabout 12 years ago
Initially I was full of thoughts and comments to do with low tech and olde skool methods easily taking on big political, policing and military forces, etc. Often this comes to mind when I hear the authorities talking about terrorists using the internet and cell phones for communicating, and getting caught. What's wrong the the old dead drop, human courier, etc, I think. And MC02 is another great example. But I bet we all think that. So... boring!!!!<p>However, having read this, the comments here and particularly the article in exile.ru, Im wondering about the problem of the aircraft carrier. As I understand it, the point of these things is to plonk a use-able base near or in the theatre of operations. "Projecting power" is the phrase, I believe. Anyway, these operations, and other examples, talk about being 100 miles off shore, or something similar, and there for being vulnerable to small mass attacks, one of operations, or what ever. The conclusion seems to be that aircraft carriers are vulnerable sitting ducks, and there for useless. Further, carrier owners are some how wrong for wanting, using or advocating them. I disagree.<p>If one is going to engage in this sort of war, a base near where the war is to be fought is essential. The US (China, Russia, etc) cant do war in the middle east (or anywhere not close to the people doing war) with out some thing like a carrier, unless suddenly the locals get friendly and allow huge US bases on their land. Yes, deals were, are and will be done, but its not comprehensive or ideal. If it were, heh, why war? Oops, tangent...<p>Anyway, point being, the carrier is as vital as it is vulnerable. What needs to be sorted out is how you get them in place, then defend them. But IMHO, they are certainly not worthless, useless, or even slightly redundant. They are literally a part of the country that can be manoeuvred to different places. If you can't do that, you can easily do major war 1000's of miles away.<p>Edit: Or, I read too much Tom Clancy....
venusabout 12 years ago
From the wikipedia links, I thought this was a good analysis: <a href="http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=6779&#38;IBLOCK_ID=35&#38;PAGE=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=6779&#38;...</a>
mjsabout 12 years ago
What is real and what is simulated in war games such as this? It apparently cost US$250m, so you'd think some of it would be real but for example were real motorcycle messengers used to transmit messages to real front-line troops? Were ships actually moved? Were cruise missiles actually fired?
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nawitusabout 12 years ago
There's also been some criticism about Riper's claims, that the simulation was completely unrealistic. That said, it's not very constructive to use simulations to prove points about war strategy, because simulations are pretty much always rigged to let one side win.
stcredzeroabout 12 years ago
Are there any RTS games which could be used to play out Red vs. Blue? Seems like Iran paid attention, and they've been developing doctrine and hardware based on Millenium Challenge. If I were the US, I would be developing weapons and tactics against Van Riper's. (Like stealth drones that can target motorcycle messengers.)
bjhoops1about 12 years ago
Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter on this in his book Blink. Really interesting read about how frequently instinctual, snap decisions (Red team) based off of limited information result in better results than overly analyzed decisions based off of loads and loads of information (Blue team).
Sumasoabout 12 years ago
An old story but a good one.<p>Reminds me of the documentary "The Fog of War".
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saurabhabout 12 years ago
The documentary "The Perfect War" mentioned in the article seems unavailable on the interwebs.
blablabla123about 12 years ago
This sounds completely insane ;)
vrtaabout 12 years ago
I expected to read that Van Riper died of natural causes later that year.
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