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Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

49 pointsby chailatteabout 12 years ago

14 comments

belornabout 12 years ago
Money in the bank is not your money anymore. By the time of credit cards, banks moved from being a custodian of money, to a service provider that can cut anyone off from their service.<p>Sure, this time it was not the banks itself but rather the government that did this, but they could only do this because banks and government has stopped seeing money in the bank as belonging to the person who put it there. They would have never gone to a farmer and taken 10% of their grain. They would have never gone and taken physical property in peoples home. That would had been an complete impossibility. I even strongly doubt that any safety deposit boxes will be effect by this.<p>I understand the idea that this is a blow against companies that are using Cyprus as an tax haven. Its fully understandable. But I really dislike this current system of treating money in the bank as belonging to the bank. This story is just a clear example of this behavior expanding further.
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arbugeabout 12 years ago
It's a perfectly horrible idea:<p>- penalizes savers who lived within their means and didn't overextend themselves, saving up for a rainy day. Debtors who took out excessive mortgages etc. aren't affected.<p>- penalizes foreign investors like the Russians, who will be paying about 40% of the money to be raised from this measure if you do the math. Never a good idea to scare foreign investment away.<p>- might create a bank run in other weak economies in the EU, like Italy, Spain, and Portugal. That could create a problem on a huge scale.
ww520about 12 years ago
This is highway robbery. It reneges on the contractual agreement between the depositors and the banks to get the full deposit back. If they impose a 10% levy on the new deposits, then fine. They are levying on existing deposits retroactively. That's simply robbery.<p>Just because the money is from foreigners doesn't make it right. EU banking will have not credibility after this.<p>This will discourage people to put money in the banks and encourage them to keep them at home.
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rottencupcakesabout 12 years ago
Is this really any different than US Monetary policy that leads to continual inflation making your savings worth less over time?
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milesabout 12 years ago
Is Satoshi Nakamoto's secret identity José Manuel Barroso? It's hard to imagine a way for the government to drive people to Bitcoin any harder (short of officially adopting it).
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braxtonabout 12 years ago
The people who elected a government that made their country a tax haven leading to the crisis in the first place.
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tudorizerabout 12 years ago
And the Bitcoin community did this <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1aes4q/bitcoincentralnet_cyprus_specials/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1aes4q/bitcoincentr...</a>.
Pro_bityabout 12 years ago
Anyone want to put odds on this starting bank runs across Europe?
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hmottestadabout 12 years ago
I recommend a referendum to default on the European loans, convert to a new currency, and become an even larger tax haven for the russian mafia.
KateSciselabout 12 years ago
Cyprus is clearly not the most typical european country (with vast quantities of Russian money flowing through it). However this clearly demonstrates that people do not fully control what happens to their savings. I'm wondering how much it'll take for, for example, Spaniards to start removing their money from their banks. The French have already been doing so.
memiabout 12 years ago
I do have offshore company with Cyprus company current account. Does this tax also affects my company?
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rafskiabout 12 years ago
It's funny to see a bank holiday used for what it was initially invented for — preventing a bank run.
mdasenabout 12 years ago
In some ways, this isn't a great plan. It punishes those who saved their money while rewarding those who consumed their income. It also means that people will have to start assuming that wealth taxes on bank account balances may happen in more jurisdictions and that they should move their money into what they deem to be safe jurisdictions. This could do harm to other countries whose banking systems have been having trouble.<p>This is not some sort of illegal seizure - and wouldn't even be in the United States. While we normally tax income or consumption, governments can and do tax wealth. In the United States, property taxes are quite normal. What is the difference between charging someone x% of their house value in taxes and charging someone x% of their bank account balance in taxes? It's mostly normative: we're used to taxes on physical property like houses, but not used to taxes on cash that we carry in banks. If the government decided tomorrow to switch from property taxes to bank account taxes, would you care? Mostly, it would depend on where the bulk of your wealth is. If it were in your home, you would welcome the change.<p>I think the reason that they chose to go after the bank balances is that a lot of it is foreign-owned. In many ways, this is much better for the Cypriot people. They may not like seeing their bank accounts go down by 6-10%, but this method spreads the burden to a lot of foreigners. If they went the route of imposing a high property tax, they would have to shoulder a much higher burden.<p>It's also easier to implement, in a certain light. If you impose a new tax of, say, 2% on the value of real property holdings, people are going to lose their houses when they can't come up with the money for the tax. You don't want that: it would just be chaos. Taxing the bank accounts is taxing a liquid asset. You know they have the cash to cover 10% of their bank account balance because, well, it's their bank account balance.<p>Since they're going to impose the levy before the banks open on tuesday (monday being a banking holiday) and banks putting a withdrawal limit of 400 Euros on customers, it looks like it can be implemented.<p>In many ways, it's the easiest, quickest successful tax that they could impose. And, while it will cause a lot of uproar from Cypriots, it's probably better than any other measure for them. If the government were to try and raise the money from other means (whether a real property tax, higher consumption taxes, higher income taxes, etc.), the burden would fall on residents more than this tax will. Similarly, this tax will hit the rich harder than the poor. If they raised VAT, income tax, or real property tax, the rich could move elsewhere and be spared a lot of it.<p>EDIT: I'm going to respond to some replies here.<p>First, I never said this was a good plan. I said that it would be easy and quick from an administrative standpoint. The ECB doesn't seem to want something long and drawn out or get into a situation where legislative processes and elections throw everything into chaos. Since Cyprus wants the bailout, the ECB holds a lot of the cards. We've seen how governmental changes can throw a wrench into the bailout agreements. Because this levy can be implemented "overnight", it's easy and doesn't rely on a legislature agreeing on austerity measures for many years.<p>This solution will be a betrayal of people's trust, it will hurt people. It will make people think twice about putting their money in banks. In fact, this is something that parts of Latin America face. However, are there alternatives for coming up with 5.8 billion Euro that would be better?<p>Frankly, in order to criticize well, you have to bring up other solutions against the chosen solution. This move is bad. No one thinks this is a happy move. It has cons. People will lose savings (including money they were counting on having). People will distrust banks for the foreseeable future. It will create resentment and anger. It will be bad. So, what would be better?<p>Now, one can argue that defaulting on the debt would be better - that's certainly a position to take. However, assuming that Cyprus doesn't want to default, how else should they have secured the ECB bailout (assuming that one needs to raise 5.8 billion Euro to do so)?
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martincedabout 12 years ago
I've submitted this first but it didn't take off...<p>Anyway: this is just the beginning and it's not going to stop anytime soon. The Eurozone is in big trouble: it simply cannot work when you have people who only want to work 32 hours / week and stop working at 60 years old (France) while on the other side you have hard-working germans.<p>The crisis we're witnessing since a few years in the eurozone is really simple: the GDP growth number in most of the eurozone are fake in that they do not correspond to wealth created but to wealth created + state debt. Nearly every single country in the eurozone is running at deficit.<p>The crisis is due to one and only one thing: states that are so indebted that they cannot borrow anymore.<p>Economists warned about precisely that scenario before the first euro even circulated: Greece, Spain, France, Cyprus... 15 years ago people warned that it would happen just like that. It was just a matter of time.<p>I can tell you what's coming next: Greece is going to default a second time.<p>In 2014 France shall have its deficit skyrocketing and shall have issue re-financing itself on the market.<p>France is the 2nd biggest economy of the eurozone and the eurozone is f^cked. It's game over. France has taxed the private sector so much that it cannot tax it anymore and, anyway, it's too late: investors did flee the country and now individuals are engaging in a bank run (or leaving the country).<p>The obvious solution would be a <i>massive</i> devaluation of the euro but this cannot happen because if it happens Japan goes down (and probably the U.S.).<p>We're near the endgame: the house of cards may fall soon.<p>And I can tell you thing: I want less state. This entire euro-crisis is a debt of sovereign states having way too much public debt because they've constantly been running at deficit, for decades. And now they're running out of money.<p>It didn't help that they borrowed money to save banksters but don't be mistaken: nobody forced these states to run with crazy-high deficit for decades.<p>F^ck socialism. Really f^ck it.<p>Btw I don't care if Cyprus was supposed to be very liberal: Cyprus is 0.2% of the GDP of the eurozone and doesn't matter.<p>What matter is that socialist Spain, Greece, Portugal and France are close to state default.<p>They'll be watching closely how announcing money confiscation just before a long week-end plays out (monday is a legal day off in Cyprus) and they'll probably be desperately trying to do the same in these countries.<p>And it's not going to work.<p>People should really start realizing that Keynes was all wrong all along and that the Friedman school is the only correct one: they did predict all this. Keynesians didn't.<p>Btw if the eurozone goes down dont' think the U.S. is going to be fine: some economists are predicting a worldwide drop of the world GDP by as much as 30%.<p>It's just a matter of years, maybe less.
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