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Forking and Dongle Jokes Don't Belong At Tech Conferences

68 pointsby adriarichardsabout 12 years ago

29 comments

Udoabout 12 years ago
This whole thing was a massive failure on all sides.<p>It was a social failure by the guys who kept on making annoying and unfunny jokes (I think it actually starts with this obnoxious "thank me! thank me!" stuff).<p>It was a total benevolence failure on part of the author who seems exceedingly gleeful about her well-calculated coup.<p>It's a failure of society in general to think that "sexualized" environments somehow attack the expected chastity of women. Or that chastity is a virtue in the first place.<p>It's a failure of taste to think those kinds of comments are actually funny - or even sexual for that matter, and that equally-as-annoying non-sexual comments should go unpunished.<p>It's a failure of the geek community in general to create an environment where a constant battle is being waged between men and women, that certainly includes obnoxious and harassing behavior of groups of men, but it just as well applies to women who are constantly on the prowl to detect sex stuff.<p>This whole thing: totally unnecessary from all sides. Instead, we could just code in peace. But as I see it nobody is making an effort to actually question the factors that led to this totally predictable and depressingly recurring disaster. Everybody is just pouncing on the scandal. This energy would be better spent by employing a healthy dose of introspection.
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martypittabout 12 years ago
I'm sorry, but I read this as a total overreaction on her behalf.<p>And, there's a massive dose of hypocrisy here, especially given the following tweets that she sent, whilst at PyCon:<p><pre><code> @skwashd you should put something in your pants next time... like a bunch of socks inside one...large...sock. TSA agent faint</code></pre> [1]<p>How is this not a massive double standard? Is this not dripping with innuendo?<p>Would it have been acceptable if the jokes about forking and dongles had been issued via tweets, rather than aloud? I doubt it. Given then terms of conduct specify "All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience", I doubt this complies.<p>Earlier, she retweeted a joke about Autism [2], a comment about a dollar bill being "6 inches long" [3], and a crack about developers being socially awkward. [4].<p>Let me be clear - I take no offence from any of these posts - and I'm sure they are all meant in good humour ... but, that's not the point here, is it?<p>And, to quote the victim herself ... <i>"judge not yet ye be judged..."</i><p>[1] <a href="https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425</a><p>[2] <a href="https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842</a><p>[3] <a href="https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264</a><p>[4] <a href="https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488</a><p>[5] <a href="https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233</a>
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angersockabout 12 years ago
So, we've got the "Think of the children!" argument:<p><pre><code> I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so. </code></pre> I'll entertain that argument, though I think it is a <i>wee-bit</i> overbearing on her part to assume what will and what won't scare off this youngster; I don't believe, for example, that simple clumsy bawd would actually be enough to ruin software development for all people forever--and honestly, how many of us would <i>want</i> to work with someone who can't take the occasional obscene joke?<p>This is where I have a problem with the author's actions:<p><pre><code> I decided to do things differently this time and didn’t say anything to them directly. </code></pre> ...especially when, in the same article, we have:<p><pre><code> I know I don’t have to be a hero in every situation. </code></pre> Honestly? This is what passes for heroism these days? Are you kidding me?<p>Had the author talked to them, expressed discontent, explained why she felt their behavior was inappropriate, and all that, I'm sure everyone would've come out ahead. Instead, these poor folks are getting smeared for cracking wise to each other during a conference.<p>No amount of hand-wringing will change the fact that the author, when given the opportunity to directly improve the situation and help set a good example, chose to make a mess of things for what is probably at best just ill-timed immaturity.<p>If you want to help the cause of women in CS, you have to make sure that you are setting an example where your actions cannot be interpreted as fearful, backstabbing, or passive-aggressive. You want to be a positive role-model, right?<p>EDIT: Here, a call to action. Folks, don't put up with people who are being jerks--but at least try to explain to them <i>why</i> they are being jerks, and try to set a good example. A lot of people don't try to screw up things--they just need a nudge to keep on the right path from time to time.
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grannyg00seabout 12 years ago
"What many of you don’t know is that wasn’t the first time that day I had to address this issue around harassment and gender."<p>A few guys making idiotic jokes amongst themselves about forking and dongle size is now considered harassment? I can understand they were probably being annoying, but I'm having trouble seeing this as harassment.
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monitronabout 12 years ago
I am missing something here. I get that someone could be offended by these comments, but what does it have to do with being a woman? I know females who would giggle at such jokes and males who would feel uncomfortable.<p>I feel like the person here being the most sexist is the author, for insinuating that there's something inherent in her gender that makes "forking" jokes offensive to her. I would welcome an explanation of what I'm not seeing.
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girvoabout 12 years ago
The "jokes" (which are lame) weren't directed at her from what I can gather. The OP publicly lynched them, and one guy was fired for it.<p>What a crap situation all over :( I dont understand the offensiveness of what they said, directed at themselves, just being idiots. Christ, that could happen to me.<p>Is fear of reprisal better than actual understanding?
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antiheroabout 12 years ago
Wait so now it is 100% un-okay to make any kind of sexual joke ever if women are remotely in the proximity? I make sexual jokes with female friends all the time, and they don't care if some of them are duds, because they are reasonable people.<p>Surely the idea of feminism is to be treated like equal human beings, and human beings should have some sense of humour.<p>I mean, of course tits in a slideshow is horrible because it makes women feel marginalised, however forking and dongle jokes? Seriously? Fuck that. Unless they were clearly being used to make her feel uncomfortable, what business does she have overhearing a private conversation and being offended by it?
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georgebarnettabout 12 years ago
Given that it would be trivial to turn around and ask them not to offend, I fail to see the benefit in publicly going after these guys after the fact.<p>Mob justice doesn't allow the other party the ability to alter their behaviour (we don't know if asking would have worked) nor does it allow the other party to tell their side of the story.<p>In addition, it has a habit of causing both sides to dig their heels in and often causes more trouble.
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rangibabyabout 12 years ago
I guess the big factor here would be if they were purposely saying those comments in order to be assholes.<p>Friends do make silly jokes with each other, right?<p>Surely the person could have just said something like "Guys, not funny, because..." instead of making it a huge public shaming in the Internet Court of Law.
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general_failureabout 12 years ago
So Lynn root says holy effing crap in the tweet.<p>I am so offended. Why do women say things like this. I am so hurt. I wish someone showed her the code of conduct. Women talking about fucking is just not nice.
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tcskepticabout 12 years ago
From the "Attendee Procedure for Handling Harassment PyCon 2013" <a href="https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/" rel="nofollow">https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...</a><p>"Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."
markfingerabout 12 years ago
Given that the author was contributing to a more accessible culture at one of the largest tech gatherings in the world, it's disappointing to see so much disbelief and anger here.<p>Her response and the resulting actions may seem harsh as an isolated incident, but they reflect her frustration with the countless times that she would have ignored such statements.<p>In the context of an event that prioritises diversity and equality - such that it has achieved 20% female attendance - the behaviour of the gentlemen involved represents exactly what the organisers are fighting against.<p>The best response to this story would be for readers to reflect and to realise how unintentionally alienating the macho nature of code communities can be.<p>The larger picture here is not Man vs. Woman. The issue is that we are members of a subculture which projects an image of immature and offensive behaviour. Behaviour which offends other races, ethnicities, ages, abilities, religions, sexual orientations AND genders.
canadevabout 12 years ago
My 2c:<p>- The conference organizers set a very inclusive mandate that was, perhaps unwittingly, violated.<p>- The blog post author was justified in using social media to alert the organizers that their mandate was being violated, but this probably could have been done privately with a similar effect.<p>- It is extremely unfortunate that the violator's employers fired him. That is a big overreaction on the employer's part.<p>- The individual outcome here of the guy getting fired sucks, really badly, but that was not the blog post author's decision to make in the first place.<p>- If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's a good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result.<p>I think that this is not about political correctness but about fostering an environment that allows everyone to feel comfortable. Perhaps the general short term trend will be to overcorrect by being extremely polite and reserved, but when the community embraces women and the community is evenly split between males/females/other this will eventually fade into history as we collectively reach a tone for public conversation that embraces as many people as possible while still maintaining emotion.<p>This isn't just a tech problem. The whole world is figuring out how to communicate with each other anew. There are gay people, ethnic minorities, people who identify with an uncommon gender, recovered drug addicts, people who have had family members die, vegetarians, etc. who will all take offense to certain remarks that were par for the course some time in the recent past. This is inevitable as the world embraces diversity and myriad forms of identity.<p>I suspect things will work themselves out in time, and the world will become more tolerant, while allowing people to poke fun at each other in a way that doesn't take things too far for the majority of each minority.
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firloopabout 12 years ago
Google Cache as website is down <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/" rel="nofollow">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...</a>
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alb2550about 12 years ago
Is this some kind of joke post? Oh, it's actually serious...<p>I don't want to live on this planet any more.
charleslmungerabout 12 years ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with jokes like this... except that they exacerbate an already huge problem.<p>There were 4 women who graduated with a degree in CS in my class of more than 100 last year. The intro class to CS had almost 50% female enrollment. I watched as women dropped out, one by one, switching to math or other engineering majors, some to science or humanities. They were left out of study groups, judged by their looks publicly and awkwardly, and basically made to feel unwelcome.<p>I generally hate the privilege crusader SJW attitude, but we NEED more women in CS. It's not good for society to have an environment that discourages women from joining the highest paid major coming out of college. It's worth policing our tone and being extra careful to be strictly professional. If the numbers even out, I doubt it would be such an issue.
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whbkabout 12 years ago
This is what's wrong with America today; no one can take a joke. Political correctness, while originated with valid aims, has gotten so out of control.<p>Was it a mistake to converse like that in mixed company? No doubt. Was an apology in order? Absolutely. Is a couple guys being immature going to make sure "she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." No, grow up and quit being overdramatic.<p>I realize that it's not kosher to drop the "drama" bomb in talking about women, but rest assured I have and will continue to use the same language to describe men who are incredibly self-important and turn what should be moderately uncomfortable and inappropriate situations into World War 3.
thirdhafabout 12 years ago
Link to the other HN thread on this topic: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667</a><p>If the comments are to be believed someone's already lost their job over this.
petercooperabout 12 years ago
Steer clear of humor at professional events like this, even if talking with a friend. It's too easy to step over someone's line and come under surveillance. If you wouldn't say it in a courtroom..
ladyrassilonabout 12 years ago
To me they are puerile teenage boy jokes...<p>But they are not jokes that are actually problematic and intimidating.<p>More worrying overreacting on jokes that are not a real problem makes it that much harder to object to genuinely offensive and damaging humour.
zshpromptabout 12 years ago
there is no excuse for saying stuff like that at a conference its just not appropriate.<p>but posting their picture on the internet ... there is not any excuse for that either. its just plain wrong.
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lancewiggsabout 12 years ago
We have to get better at this.<p>None of the jokes were remotely funny to me, and none of them were acceptable to me. I would have called them out. But many, most even, women don't feel safe or empowered enough to call these out, and the majority of the posts on this page speak as to why.<p>It has to stop.<p>I understand that the HN community has a large number of younger people, and understanding appropriate behaviour is one of those things we need to learn over time. The older people should be helping though.<p>We also have a large (ok vast) number of people who find social situations awkward, and perhaps make the wrong choices in these events.<p>Welcome to the entire country of New Zealand, where I am from and live. (And the UK is the same for that matter.) Over here we find every single social situation awkward. We don't tell each other our names, we are intimidated by everybody and we think it is embarrassing to speak in crowds. As a society we rely far too heavily on alcohol to loosen our social behaviour to, and sadly then well beyond, acceptable levels.<p>There are hacks to deal with these situations.<p>One, as I stated, is alcohol. That's almost certainly going to lead to trouble at a work conference, and certainly as you age society expects you to leave earlier and partake in less. But it does work at the after-parties, and many deals are struck under the influence. But not everyone enjoys the booze-fests, so smart conferences offer alternative gatherings.<p>Secondly, there are the codes of behaviour. That means understanding what sorts of statements are unacceptable and staying away from them. We never have to talk about not using the racist "N" word on HN, and similarly we should be at a place where it's alarmingly obvious that we never have to talk about not using sexist jokes and misogynist behaviour. It's a code - we need to live with it.<p>Thirdly we can call this out individually, and support those who do. This blog poster did, and the conference response was superb. A large group of us in New Zealand decided, at an unconference, to do so as well. And within 5 minutes of me sitting down at the next conference, organised by a group I help govern, I was the one loudly interjecting at some very poor MC choices. Since then a large number of the people in the room, male and female, have thanked me for that intervention, making it easier next time.<p>We need to realise that as founders, contractors, consultants, funders and employees that everything we write here is exposed to be read by not just YC, but also other people who can do business with us. Those words will last forever.<p>We can do this. We must.
adamnemecekabout 12 years ago
Way to be passive aggressive about it.
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druckenabout 12 years ago
Imagine, instead of 1,000 people in a room, there are only 10. Two of them are women.<p><pre><code> - the conference specifically welcomed diversity, has many women's groups represented and 20% women attendance is considered notable - the keynote speaker is the creator of Python - the current speaker is discussing a successful initiative about young girls coding - you are one of the two women and are sitting in front of two guys who are bantering sexual jokes as the current speaker discusses part of your work and thanks others - one of the guys speaking behind you is a sponsor of the conference. </code></pre> What would you do?
jjacobsonabout 12 years ago
I recently helped host a hackathon in Vegas and we had several high school kids, including girls, attend. They were nervous and felt out of place at first among all the older developers. But they went in to win a significant prize at the event and are now very active in the VegasTech community.<p>Thank god they didn't have to deal with anything like this.
elvis57about 12 years ago
As a 56 year old gay man, and defender of women (I have two sisters), I applaud your bravery and standing up for your beliefs. Much congrats to you! You stood up for yourself, and you are a winner! Thanks for doing so.<p>Sincerely, Tim Monteith
xxxxxxxxxxxabout 12 years ago
Petition to get Alex his job back: <a href="http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...</a>
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lazylizardabout 12 years ago
she could change seats. or turn around and speak to them and tell them she can overhear them and its not cool.<p>why turn it into some sort of vigilante prosecution of juvenile behaviour + public lynching? i'd like to imagine most people don't have the kind of moral/cutural baggage to want to do that to strangers they happen to overhear/pass by/randomly encounter..
kaoDabout 12 years ago
Oh boy, geeks are awful at coming up with pick-up lines.<p>It's like watching The Big Bang Theory.
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