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Killing hackers is justified in cyber warfare, says NATO-commissioned report

101 pointsby achalkleyabout 12 years ago

18 comments

damoncaliabout 12 years ago
I can feel some downvotes coming for this, but people need some perspective. They are talking about hacking the US military with potentially life and death consequences. Why people seem to think that they could do that without risking their lives is beyond me.
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ykabout 12 years ago
I think that it is intuitively quite clear, that it is possible for 'cyber operations' to be part of acts of war. [1] And the perpetrators are therefore combatants and legitimate targets. But since I read P.W. Singer's <i>Wired for war</i> I have the strong feeling that the second order effects of 'cyber' and drone operations are quite poorly thought out. So for example a drone pilot is by this standard a combatant. And this reduces the protections international law has for his house and the civilians within ( his family).<p>So I think, that the dominant military power ( or in case of the NATO, military alliance) should try to limit the use of potentially disruptive developments, already out of self interest.<p>[1] I will not argue in this about the morality of war or the logic of warfare. Here I will simply argue within this framework.
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smtddrabout 12 years ago
And there we go. Right on track[1]. So first we keep putting "chinese" and "hackers" into the same sentence with or without proof. Now we start to talk about killing hackers. So now I've been told hackers can be made targets of lethal force and China has a lot of hackers. What next?<p>1. <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5351714" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5351714</a>
noonespecialabout 12 years ago
Add that to their ever increasing willingness to kill everyone and anyone secretly with drones and it equals serious badness.
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snarfyabout 12 years ago
Consider stuxnet. Now replace Iran with the US and replace centrifuges with missile launch and targeting systems.
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alan_cxabout 12 years ago
So, presumably its fine for secret murderers to hunt down fighter pilots, tank commanders, Navy commanders, drone operators, etc?<p>A hacker is a person using a tool, or weapon. They do the hack, and its done. Then get on with life, or do work or do training, etc. Same as a tank commander. Most of the time they are not doing tank killing. They are laid up, or doing something else. So, why not hunt them down the same way? Why are hackers special?<p>Talk about pussy easy fashionable target.
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bobwaycottabout 12 years ago
The title is, unfortunately, link-baity, misleading, and really misses some of the most alarming parts of this doc.<p>The article from <i>The Guardian</i>[1] is more balanced in presenting the actual news. This doc[2] is directed at how to handle <i>state-sponsored</i> and other <i>war-time</i> cyber attacks, offering a set of guidelines that indicate targets that are expressly advised to be off-limits--such as "sensitive civilian targets such as hospitals, dams, dykes and nuclear power stations". It is wrestling with how to understand and apply the Geneva Conventions to cyber attacks (e.g., see Rule 80).<p>Where do civilian hackers come into play? When they're among those "who participate in online attacks during a war". Yes, that is worrisome and potentially alarming if applied too broadly. While abuse of these guidelines concerns me (greatly), this is not a new issue in the art of contemporary war.<p>Consider the French Resistance during WWII--a heavily civilian-populated paramilitary resistance force that not only engaged in intelligence theft &#38; trafficking, but also were highly regarded and notorious for coordinating and executing sabotage against power grids, transportation infrastructure, and telecommunications networks. I think it could be argued that the Resistance is a historical analogue to contemporary hackers/hacktivists engaged in cyber attacks during a state of war. This document is essentially wrestling with the legalities and rules of war that should apply where the contemporary equivalent is concerned. Of course, I'd guess a lot of us would have greater sympathy for Resistance-style hackers engaged in acts of sabotage than, say, state-sponsored hackers who are targeting domestic nuclear facilities.<p>The real meat of the NATO document appears to be circling this line of thinking:<p>&#60; <i>The manual suggests "proportionate counter-measures" against online attacks carried out by a state are permitted. Such measures cannot involve the use of force, however, unless the original cyber-attack resulted in death or significant damage to property.</i><p>Okay. Prohibition against launching missiles and invasion forces as retaliation for hacking that did not result in death or significant damage to property? Check. (of course, we need to be careful about how we define 'significant damage to property').<p>This is, however, where the document gets far more interesting and alarming than the OP article mentions. Specifically, note Rule 22 and commentary:<p>&#62; <i>"An international armed conflict exists whenever there are hostilities, which may include</i> or be limited to <i>cyber operations occurring between two states or more . . . To date, no international armed conflict has been publicly characterised as having been solely precipitated in cyberspace. Nevertheless, the international group of experts unanimously concluded that cyber operations alone might have the potential to cross the threshold of international armed conflict."</i><p>We've now hit the point that state-sponsored digital operations are recognized as having the potential to initiate armed international conflicts. Not only that, but we have a formal declaration that international armed conflict <i>may be limited to</i> 'cyber operations occurring between two states or more'. <i>That</i> is the more alarming bit of news here.<p>[1]: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/18/rules-cyberwarfare-nato-manual" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/18/rules-cyberwarfa...</a> [2]: <a href="http://bit.ly/YTbtRd" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/YTbtRd</a>
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adventuredabout 12 years ago
I don't think there's any new distinction to be made about hackers regarding this. Rather, hasn't it always been a question of whether someone was a target of interest or not?<p>I wouldn't be surprised if the US and Soviets were killing hackers 25+ years ago during the cold war.
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lucb1eabout 12 years ago
URL shortener blocked here for some reason. Working link:<p><a href="http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/21/4130740/tallin-manual-on-the-international-law-applicable-to-cyber-warfare" rel="nofollow">http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/21/4130740/tallin-manual-on-t...</a>
jiggy2011about 12 years ago
Surely in this context "cyber warfare" means state sponsored hackers, probably working for the military at a military establishment guarded by people with guns.<p>Not just some kid who nmaps the wrong netblock.
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jurassicabout 12 years ago
This message is sure to alleviate their technical recruiting problems.
Roboprogabout 12 years ago
Spying and sabotage have always been frowned upon by countries at war, regardless of the means.<p>Whether wars are of the "world" variety, the "cold" variety, or the dubious "terror" variety matters not.
stcredzeroabout 12 years ago
Related to this:<p><a href="https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/bullet/" rel="nofollow">https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/bullet...</a><p>A weapon system comparable to this would enable a drone to reliably target one and only one person. That would be instrumental in taking out both hackers and drone pilots under this new doctrine.
pixelcortabout 12 years ago
If you're interested in a movie related to the subject, check out <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_Dealer" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_Dealer</a><p>Ignore the main plot and look to the interactions between the protagonist and the drones:<p>&#62; catches him monitoring a frequency used by the drones, an act that warrants a brutal attack
Ygg2about 12 years ago
What does the report says about what amount of damage requires killing in retribution? Is it with due process or not? Would hacker include anyone with a computer that's in reach of drones?
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caycepabout 12 years ago
Someone hide Ally Sheedy and Matthew Broderick!!
codeoclockabout 12 years ago
...what? What part of "killing is bad" don't these people understand?!
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knodiabout 12 years ago
I don't see why it wouldn't be. We live in high tech times. Cyber warfare is nothing different then physical violence.
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