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Efnet klines all Hetzner netblocks

97 pointsby alternizeabout 12 years ago

21 comments

efdeeabout 12 years ago
"One of our EFnet operators located a server that a client was using, the server was most likely hacked and/or used for illegal activities." -- so they contacted the ISP and the ISP sent their request to whoever owns the box.<p>That sounds entirely reasonable to me. Hetzner has no idea whether or not the box owner is the suspected hacker (even EFnet assumed the server was hacked) in the same way that EFnet has no idea about whether an Hetzner employee was the suspected hacker. So three possible outcomes: (a) the box was hacked, so sending said info to the box owner was not a bad idea, (b) the box wasn't hacked, it was the box owner himself doing bad things, in which case Hetzner just gave the box owner personal information about his victim, or (c) the box wasn't hacked, and it's a Hetzner employee doing bad things, in which case EFnet just gave the employee personal information about the victim.<p>So, exactly why are they blaming Hetzner?
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andorabout 12 years ago
<i>Unfortunately, the past few days many EFnet servers (and more are following) have had to ban an entire ISP, which has not happened in over a decade, if not longer. Naturally, something extreme must happen for this to be even considered.</i> [... and the extreme thing is ...] <i>the email also contained sensitive information about who this operator was, including nicknames</i><p>This is ridiculous. Why would an IRC op want to keep his/her nickname from becoming public? On IRC, even IP addresses are public. Hetzners reaction seems entirely reasonable to me, especially if the server in question was "mots likely hacked".
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raphmanabout 12 years ago
I have reported spammers/phishers to Hetzner in the past and experienced the same: Hetzner's default policy is to forward a complaint to the server's owner - which also kind of surprised and annoyed me. On the phone, support staff told me that Hetzner sees itself just as an uninvolved messenger between both parties. Apparently, their support ticket system automatically forwards all complaints to the server's owner without any way to opt out. The support person offered two alternatives: send anonymous complaints through a freemail service, or send the complaint to the personal address of a support team member, so that they can manually enter it into the system. Yes, this is pretty annoying.
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codesuelaabout 12 years ago
&#62; Unfortunately, according to trusted sources (ex-employees) of Hetzner.de, this is policy and not an exception. They have realized they can save money (by limiting attacks) by redirecting the attacks back at the person reporting them. That way, the hacker/cracker/kiddie using their services will not cancel their contract with Hetzner, and in return Hetzner will remain protected.<p>I don't think that this has to do with Hetzner needing criminal business but rather with Hetzner not wanting to shut down an entire server if a part of it has been breached. Forwarding that complaint in it's entirety is definitely not best practice however making such allegations is neither.
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h2sabout 12 years ago
That announcement should have clarified whether the communication they sent to Hetzner explicitly requested confidentiality. If not, the incident is as much Efnets's fuckup as Hetzner's. Why did it even need to contain such sensitive personal information about the sysop in the first place?
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subsystemabout 12 years ago
"This has worked very well due to our personal involvement with a lot of said organizations. If we find an abuser on IRC, we try to not only ban him or her, but also to contact the provider so that the problem is handled at the right end, often with the involvement of law enforcement, as was the case with Kevin Mitnick, t0rn and a lot of other well publicized hackers/crackers."<p>I'm not sure that is something to be proud of.
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trotskyabout 12 years ago
God forbid we should mildly redesign the irc semantics so that splits don't allow you to take over channels or collide clients off.<p>I mean it's only been a big enough problem for 20 years now that you can't even host an ircd on most standard hosting contracts.
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DangerousPieabout 12 years ago
This seems like a ridiculous overreaction to me. Not only do I not see much wrong with an ISP forwarding abuse e-mails to the admin of the hacked server (who is probably a victim too), but I also find a bit hard to believe that the nickname of an operator is enough to "derive a home address".
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mschuster91about 12 years ago
Uhhh... that's bad. Real bad, for both sides.<p>I can totally understand Hetzner for just forwarding abuse complaints to the client (for root servers, the hoster usually has no "emergency ssh keys"), so the faster the original owner of the server can boot out the hacker, the better. At least it's better than disconnecting the customer from the internet entirely, especially as "haxx0ring" a server is damn easy these days, given the numbers of aged Wordpress installs alone. Also, a server owner who knows his server can support me as a hacking victim better than the hoster support who often knows nothing about configuration details, OS, disk encryption etc. on the server.<p>But I also understand EFNet, that their emails got blindly forwarded is bad, too...
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weinzierlabout 12 years ago
<p><pre><code> "[...] someone at Hetzner chose to forward this complaint to the actual abuser him/herself. [...] Unfortunately, according to trusted sources (ex-employees) of Hetzner.de, this is policy and not an exception." </code></pre> I really hope this is not true.<p>In 2011 there started to appear pornography when I searched for my name in image search. The reason was that a stackoverflow.com scraper showed my answers (which I post under my real name) but my profile picture replaced with porn. I have no idea why he replaced the profile pictures in the first place, but anyway.<p>The scraper site was hosted at Hetzner. I phoned Hetzner. They told me to write to abuse@hetzner.de, which I did (in German). I received an auto-reply but nothing else happened. I tried to reach their phone support (09831 610061) several times during their business hours (Mo-Fr 7:30-18:00 Uhr) but no one picked up. I wrote several other mails to Hetzner but never received another reply.<p>After about seven months the scraper went down but I have no idea if it had something to do with my complaints because I never received any feedback from Hetzner.<p>I have know Idea who was behind the site. They could have found out about me anyway because I posted this publicly on meta.stackoverflow [1], but still: The thought that they might have learned about my identity through Hetzner is discomforting.<p>[1] <a href="http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/81872/copycat-site-causes-disturbing-images-to-turn-up-in-image-search" rel="nofollow">http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/81872/copycat-site-c...</a>
itryabout 12 years ago
Can somebody tell me, what "kline" means? I never heard that word and dont find a dictionary entry.
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ciupicriabout 12 years ago
The article doesn't seem to mention if the sensitive information from the email was marked as such.
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eliasmacphersonabout 12 years ago
Doesn't explain why efnet themselves are not at fault for failing to redact the details if they are so concerned. What if the attacker was Hetzner staff?
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devicenullabout 12 years ago
Are there any actual standards for how abuse reports should be handled by service providers? What Hetzner is doing here appears to be pretty reasonable to me (it matches what companies like Level 3 and nLayer do).<p>I can understand why you might not want sensitive email forwarded to the abuser, but why would you send that information in your initial complaint? For all you know, the person you're reporting to is the abuser.
cientificoabout 12 years ago
This posts makes me trust more in Hetzner as a provider than the other way around.<p>I know that if there is any problem, they will forward the problem to me as soon as possible, and they are not going to take the law into their own.
johndoeeeabout 12 years ago
I got an abuse mail from Hetzner once (they mistyped my ip).<p>The original complaint was something autodetected by their own system, mailed to themselves. The original complaint was attached, header and all. Something about malware on an IP similar to mine.<p>Also, when will this be in effect, the server i tested from had no problems connecting.
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TheSwordsmanabout 12 years ago
Full text:<p>Posted on behalf of Silence, EFnet admin:<p>Dear users,<p>EFnet has always been a network that promotes freedom of speech. One of the core pillars of a free virtual society is trust. Trust not only amongst ourselves internally, but an undying trust in the companies that allow their users to connect to our wonderful network. We have survived over two decades, in a world that is increasingly image- and video-based. IRC can offer neither of those. IRC is based on ideas. Ideas that are exchanged in text. With text, as opposed to images and videos, one has to be put extra effort into the subliminal, the meaning, the message. This has been our catcher in the rye, and we intend to protect this content-based communication form, for as long as it is appreciated by the hundreds of thousands who every day turn to IRC for philosophical debates, dating and just about anything you can think of (I’m sure a lot of the things in that last category does not belong here in this text, but you get the picture!).<p>We rely solely at the goodwill of others, as is the case with most things worth saving. There is no money to be made. We all do this for free. Sure, some companies might have benefited from a small level of advertisement, attracting customers to their products. But all in all, it has mostly been an uphill battle against enormous attacks, sometimes exceeding 75Gbps of DDoS. This has made it impossible for all but the largest organizations to host a server on our network, or any other large virtual society. We are Don Quijote and the weather mills are often winning.<p>One of our key strategies is to preserve a close relationship with the major Internet- and Hosting Service Providers, as those are the networks that our users connect through. This has worked very well due to our personal involvement with a lot of said organizations. If we find an abuser on IRC, we try to not only ban him or her, but also to contact the provider so that the problem is handled at the right end, often with the involvement of law enforcement, as was the case with Kevin Mitnick, t0rn and a lot of other well publicized hackers/crackers.<p>Unfortunately, the past few days many EFnet servers (and more are following) have had to ban an entire ISP, which has not happened in over a decade, if not longer. Naturally, something extreme must happen for this to be even considered. Almost always can we find a solution through the use of good old fashioned communication. Alas, not in this case. Well, here is the story (to the best of my knowledge):<p>One of our EFnet operators located a server that a client was using, the server was most likely hacked and/or used for illegal activities. As IRC is often a playground for these people to use, before moving on to more serious targets (where they can make money through extortion), we take this extremely seriously. Because of the serious nature of this, our operator sent an email to Hetzner.de, a German hosting provider, to help them lower the abuse of their servers, as well as ours. This is usually a fruitful symbiotic relationships, where both parties stand to gain.<p>However, the big difference between this case and all the other thousands of cases we have handled in the past, is that someone at Hetzner chose to forward this complaint to the actual abuser him/herself. This might seem fair enough, as anyone accused should be granted the right to defend him- or herself. However, the email also contained sensitive information about who this operator was, including nicknames (from which names can be derived, and thus, also, home addresses). We know what an impact this can have on your social, not to mention your professional life. We have seen people lose their jobs, after constant attacks and we have also seen companies lose money that is hard to fathom, considering this is still just a simple chat for friends. This is a fundamental breach of that mutual trust that has allowed us to accept clients from Hetzner to use our network - free of charge, just like we do with anyone else wanting to connect.<p>This a give and take network, where mutual trust is vital for our survival. We are maintained by the community, and we exist solely for the community. Hetzner.de has broken one of the most fundamental aspects of any report of criminal activity or suspicion thereof; source protection.<p>I expect us to get attacked now, which will result in a lot of work for the company kind enough to donate money and time to continue to provide us with servers, in an era where almost everything else would be more profitable. But this is an ideological problem, more than a financial one. We have been attacked before, and we will again. We are prepared. But these preparations rely on the fact that we know who the enemy is. Hetzner.de has made that impossible.<p>As a result of this, we have decided to ban all Hetzner IP ranges (both IPv4 and IPv6) from our servers. It seems other networks are following, and I know QuakeNet has published a similar statement. We simply do not want anything to do with a company that values money over source protection and integrity. Some may argue that this was a one time mistake, and that we should not jump to conclusions so fast. Could this have been a mistake? Sure. Does it matter, given the consequences this could have had for this operator’s personal life and health? No. We do not appreciate cowards that would rather see someone else hurt, than take their responsibility.<p>Unfortunately, according to trusted sources (ex-employees) of Hetzner.de, this is policy and not an exception. They have realized they can save money (by limiting attacks) by redirecting the attacks back at the person reporting them. That way, the hacker/cracker/kiddie using their services will not cancel their contract with Hetzner, and in return Hetzner will remain protected. Left are those of us that work for free, and who will continue to do so, for as long as there are honest, reliable companies out there, willing to go the extra mile to protect the freedom of the Internet, and, above all, freedom of press and source protection.<p>Questions on this matter must be directed to Hetzner.de, as our involvement in this situation is over. This has been their decision based on questionable methods. It is unfortunate for them that they got caught, but it is good for the sake of the free Internet.<p>Sincerely yours,<p>Johan Boger, on behalf of EFnet and anyone else believing in integrity, source protection and a free Internet.
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mschuster91about 12 years ago
I do see why EFnet makes a drama out of this situation... check out the RIPE entry for one of their IPs: <a href="https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/query.html?searchtext=5.9.120.209&#38;flags=&#38;sources=RIPE_NCC&#38;grssources=&#38;inverse=&#38;types=#resultsAnchor" rel="nofollow">https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/query.html?searchtext=5.9.12...</a><p>They do not mention that these emails get redirected to customer!
gesmanabout 12 years ago
Hetzner offer the cheapest dedicated servers with pretty hefty resources. Hence the invitation for abuse.
JonnieCacheabout 12 years ago
Nice to see efnet retaining some of its old magic :)
ttrreewwabout 12 years ago
This sounds like whining on the part of efnet...