I dropped over 40 grand when I could have spent $100

I agree with you that perfect sizing is the future of fashion retail--especially online. However, I completely disagree with your methodology.<p>This demographic is going to be won over by <i>marketing</i>, and you didn't have the correct marketing play in hand when you ran this survey. I'm going to give you an example:<p>If you ask people: "When shopping for clothes on the web, would you submit your email address if...?"<p>Most people would probably say no. "Submitting your email address" sounds like you're about to "submit to" a bunch of junk email!<p>However, if you ask them if they want a perfect fit (you'll probably need a better way of saying this than you have right now--you'll want to do demographic research to find out how high-income women actually would articulate this), you can find a demographic that will say "yes". As a bonus, you'll have the lingo they use and be more easily able to sell to them because you are speaking their language.<p>tl;dr: Given the word choices and copy you could have used, "submit your body measurements" was almost guaranteed to bust, but it doesn't mean you have the wrong idea. It just means you have the wrong way of saying that idea in a way that appeals to your market.

Unless I'm missing something here it looks like there were a total of 17 responses (8 yes 9 no). Are you really making a major business decision on a survey with an N of 17?

<i>The target audience for Rewire Attire, the high end fashion marketplace, was women with enough money ...</i><p>Whenever I read "target audience" and "with enough money" in the same sentence, I run the other way.<p>My experience with prospects "with enough money":<p><pre><code> - there are far less of them than everyone else - many of them didn't earn it themselves, so... - they really don't really understand the concept of "value" - they don't understand investing vs. consuming - they think they are actually the source of their own gifts, so... - they think they're better than others, so... - they will treat you like shit, not like a trusted business partner - they will second guess you - they will override you - they'll blame you for the bad things - they'll take credit for the good things - they won't pay you on time - they will protest their bills - they'll make you hate them and wonder why you're doing this </code></pre> Save yourself the agony and just build something for the masses, where no one can become big enough to make that much difference.<p>Edit: Like OP, I'm referring to B2C, not enterprise.<p>Edit 2: Normally when I see a bunch of bizarre replies to a post of mine that begins with "My experience...", I just close my browser and go back to work. But I guess I'm in a strange mood, so in order to avoid cluttering up this thread (and in the spirit of good clean fun without malice), here goes:<p>diego, you say "One data point is not generalizable..." and then introduce your own data point. It was never my intent to "generalize", just to share my experience.<p>chc, I'd prefer to read about what you <i>did</i> over of what you <i>hear</i>. If I'm going to listen to someone else's antecdote, I'd rather do it over beers.<p>PaulHoule, nice story, but what's the point?<p>larrys, My list does not directly contradict the success of just about all luxury brands that have been successful. They would probably agree. They've just chosen to thrive in such an environment. I don't.<p>Samuel_Michon. I believe you. Thanks for sharing your experience.<p>fredsted, it pretty much does not differ from everybody else? I'd rather have 100 difficult customers with 1% of my ass than 1 difficult customer with 100% of my ass. That's all.<p>(Sorry if the tone seems negative. I'd love to learn how to better communicate in writing on-line without being misunderstood... It's a work in progress.)

I don't buy this. There's something about the article that annoys me, too. I can't quite put my finger on it. I think it's because it has a linkbaity title, a tone of confidence, but is filled with weird stuff.<p>Disclaimer: I co-founded Everlane (<a href="http://everlane.com" rel="nofollow">http://everlane.com</a>), although I left to start Dev Bootcamp (<a href="http://devbootcamp.com" rel="nofollow">http://devbootcamp.com</a>) last January. I'm just speaking for myself.<p>First, look at the error bars. 100.0% (+0.0/-79.3) Saying "the sample size is too small" doesn't even do it justice. Looking at numbers like this will put you in a mindset where you make silly decisions because, hey, they're numbers! They're objective!<p>Second, this is not how fashion works. As a rule I don't trust survey results early on in a product life cycle -- customer's don't have sufficient context, so you're learning more about their predispositions and biases than their actual attitudes about your (potential) product.<p>Talking "scientifically," there's a huge uncontrolled variable here: brand. Would women share their measurements with Hermès if it meant proper sizing? How many women who shop for high-end clothes employ something like a personal shopper? What about stores that sell more intimate products, like lingerie? How about wedding gowns? Of course a woman would share he measurements to get fitted for a high-end wedding gown.<p>I have yet to commit any capital or conduct any surveys and already I feel like I have a decent framework for approaching these issues. If there are high-end retailers with whom women are comfortable sharing their measurements, what is it about those retailers that makes them comfortable?<p>Why would a woman be willing to share her measurements with Hermés but not Ross Dress for Less?<p>IMO that's a 1000x better starting point than the one asked in the survey.<p>This survey is neither reliable nor valid.

This entire article is based on a failure to understand error bars. The graph clearly shows that it's <i>possible</i> up to 79% of affluent young women would answer "yes" to this question, and more data is needed to draw an actual conclusion.

Wow...thanks for all the comments. I've been a causal reader of Hacker News, but this was my first post. I'm really impressed all the comments. Lots of great questions/comments.<p>There was one thing I neglected to mention in the blog post, that I should mention now. We ran a contest (prior to the survey) that required contestants to submit their body measurements. We wanted shoppers to see the power of submitting their measurements. We threw quite a bit of money and traffic and the contest and we saw almost no engagment. My thinking was, if we can't get shoppers to submit their measurements for a chance to win a free high end fashion design, we might have a problem (let's do a survey!)<p>As @lmm suggested the demographic for high fashion is mostly women. Also, we struggled to find high end men's fashion designers interested in our offering.<p>@ericabiz - We played around with the language on our site, however, admittedly, I'm not a marketer, so there was definitely room for improvement here. Which is why I've signed up for CoFoundersLab (<a href="http://www.cofounderslab.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.cofounderslab.com</a>) so I can find a compatible partner before jumping into my next start up.

"I found this out by spending $100"<p>"The target audience for Rewire Attire, the high end fashion marketplace, was women with enough money to afford high end fashion and that are young enough"<p>Not so fast. Forgetting even the small sample size and methodology I'm wondering whether the OP did any other research at all? And "sharing measurements" is only 1 factor in making this business a success.<p>Additionally no reason that they couldn't have forked/morphed/pivoted the model built to some other group (say the men who buy custom made suits for thousands - not saying that would or would not work but even if OP is correct about the market info (and I don't think enough research was done to prove out the point anyway) it could work in another group.)

Surveys may be getting at the wrong question.<p>As <a href="http://paulgraham.com/startupideas.html" rel="nofollow">http://paulgraham.com/startupideas.html</a> says, you want to work on an idea that a few people <i>really</i> want. Then you want to go out and find some of those people. Talk to them. And make what they want.<p>Concrete case in point. I remember reading an example of how an early focus group mostly panned a particular automobile, but 1/3 of people REALLY LOVED IT. On a survey it would have looked bad, but went on to be one of the most successful vehicles on the road. (I think it might have been the Ford Bronco, but don't quote me on that.) You don't care how many won't buy, you want something that you can find sufficient enthusiastic customers for.<p>When a woman finds something perfect, she likes to tell her friends about it. Suppose that your friend is standing in front of you in great clothing talking about how good the clothing from ____ is, you just sent them your measurements, browse the clothing, and they will send them to you tailored to fit, then you're likely sold. You've got to get those women started.<p>To do that you've got to do like Zappos did. You've got to have a generous return policy. Furthermore when you get returns, you need to try to get information about why it is returned. Because one of the reasons why stuff will get returned is fit, and the descriptions you get back are going to help you learn more about how to customize clothing to that women to give her a better fit next time. This is essential.<p>There is a lot to learn to make this work. And if you want it to work, it is absolutely necessary that you've got to get it right before trying to get popular.

It looks to me like out of 899 responses, only THREE were from the $100K-149K female target.<p>Two of them said NO, and one said YES, making the results 66% negative and 33% positive.<p>Just not enough "on target" data to surmise anything.

I believe we all make this mistake, event outside of startups. Think way back to middle school when you had a crush on that girl or guy and everything seemed perfect, and you were in love, but they didn't know it yet. All the signs were pointing to, Go for it! But you still waited months and months developing in your mind a perfect moment where you would ask them out, and they would say, "Yes!! I've been waiting for you to ask me forever!!" Then, you finally get enough courage to ask the question, just to get shut down.<p>A 10% positive response is often enough to ignore the other 90%. It's something we're all working on.

&#62;&#62; The pitch was to get away from inaccurate generic sizing terms like “small”, “medium” and “large” and move to a system based on body measurements.<p>I'm a man and possibly missing something, but it seems to me that women's clothing is <i>deliberately</i> inaccurate.<p>When I buy pants (in America), the measurements are expressed in inches. I rarely even try them on.<p>Women's sizes vary by brand and seem engineered to flatter rather than describe. A woman buying a "size 0" has not expressed her desire for a predictable, sensible sizing system.

It should be noted that while the screenshot shows only 17 responses, the <i>actual </i>survey* has 899 responses. Looks like only 17 responses fit the filters on the sample set.<p><a href="http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/view?survey=bzmnn6ltiujd6&#38;question=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/view?survey=b...</a>

I wonder if the age filter was too low. Older women are more likely to be affluent, and to be more comfortable sharing their body size. Women over the age of 35 buy lots of stuff online, at least the ones I know...

Quite an intriguing article. Just wanna add that the opportunity cost of 1 year is way more than 40 grand. Back to biz school 101, market research is always step 1.

Why would it only be for women? I live in Europe and would love to get some thinkgeek tshirts. The shipping cost is high however, so I'd order multiple at once, but I have no clue whether "small" or "medium" will fit me better. So I don't risk ordering them, or they could all be the wrong size. I'm male by the way.

&#62;"high end apparel/fashion" x 4<p>Everbody wants clothes that fit.<p>I don't know the first thing about fashion, and my wardrobe is anything but high-end.<p>However, I'm well-paid and ready to be a lifetime customer for anyone who can sell me slacks that simultaneously fit a &#62;36" inseam, &#60;38" waist and thighs which are no stranger to squats.

This is good advice in general, but the trick is knowing what questions to ask. To knowing which of your (many, many) assumptions might just be wrong.<p>Humans are strange beasts. There are so many seemingly simple things we could do that would vastly improve our lives, yet we refuse to do them.

The data is interesting, but maybe incomplete. Doesn't look like you have quite enough information to truly understand the market.<p>Apologies for name-dropping a colleague's project, but you might want to look at <a href="http://validate.io" rel="nofollow">http://validate.io</a> for a more comprehensive, scientific analysis that's actually done by someone who knows how to design surveys and analyze data (they have a PhD design and run a survey for you, it's pretty sweet). A little more than $100 but worth it to have good data on your market. You might still avoid wasting $40k going the wrong direction, but you might be able to trust it more.

Did he tried with men?. I defenitely would give my measures to be able to buy clothing online, tshirts, hoodies, pants, even caps. I don't buy online right now unless is a bramd I already know and I go directly for my size. Is

The OP is way overestimating the importance of body measurements and is targeting the wrong demographic.<p>1. What looks flattering varies drastically from one woman to the next, and the determining factor of what looks good on you isn't body measurements. It's body shape. Designers tend to target a specific body type, and women who shop for designer clothing need to identify which type they are. This is where style is hard, and where women could use help.<p>2. Body measurements help determine type, but it's not that straight forward. Petite women with have smaller differences in measurements to indicate type. Shape of certain body features (especially bust) isn't fully indicated by measurements.<p>3. Type is important not for fit but to determine what styles you should wear. If a user's measurements indicate narrow shoulders, you should not be displaying halter tops, even if the bust, waist and hips sizes are correct.<p>4. Women with enough money to buy designer clothes and care about fit also have enough money to pay a tailor. They are much more concerned about style and quality, and will pay someone else to make it fit them.<p>Mr. Borden, if you're still interested in the idea I have a few suggestions for your next iteration. Target women with enough money for nice clothes, but don't know how to shop for them.<p>Use either body measurements or some sort of questionnaire to determine a few important body characteristics- type, bust-size, petite, plus, tall, broad shoulders, ect- you could even ask what part of their body they like most/don't like. Market your platform to women as a way to discover their own personal style, to feel more confident in the body they have (self-image is a huge source of shame for many women). Hire some personal shoppers to help write blog posts on style, body type, confidence.<p>Then display clothing based on what would look good on that woman. Not size, style. So if she has a large bust, don't display turtlenecks. This is where you provide value.<p>You could take this a lot further- a user clicks on a top, show pictures of skirts or belts or shoes that would go with it, or even generate outfits that will flatter her.<p>Search is another way to provide value here. It would be awesome to say, I want to look at dresses with this or that neckline, or shirts that match this color.

Surveys have their place, but I'm a little surprised that a student of Steve Blank/Eric Ries' teachings wouldn't be "getting out of the building" and talking to people.

Fun fact: Women seem to be more willing to share their body measures than men:<p><a href="http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/view?survey=bzmnn6ltiujd6&#38;question=1&#38;filter=gen%3AMale" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/view?survey=b...</a><p><a href="http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/view?survey=bzmnn6ltiujd6&#38;question=1&#38;filter=gen%3AFemale" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/view?survey=b...</a><p>n about 450 each

Any user who upvoted this story should lose all of their karma. A grade schooler could point out what is wrong and horrifically unscientific about this blog post.

The margins in high-end apparel are so high that it would be better to send three sizes rather than magically select the right one. It's also a better customer experience as the consumer gets a chance to try on merchandise that feel their way to the right choice for their particular body. It also appeals to affluent buyers because they feel the merchant is catering to them in a way that is common in an in-store experience.

This is why I wouldn't want to build a product where I'm not the target audience. You don't see me doing women's fashion startups, or tampon subscription as a service, or child/teen games, or whatever.<p>It's a problem because ~no 3 year old is an iOS developer, and most developers are 15-40 year old men, so it's less likely you'll find good products for 3 year olds vs. developer tools, but it does avoid this particular problem.

I this not just knowing your market?<p>I had a friend drop $20,000 on a new supplement and training business, built out an app for trainers the way he saw thought it should be, and recruited trainers. Lots. Showed them the app, and got a lot of feedback, but by then it was too late. He was out of money and no dev wanted a piece of the pie.<p>He should have done his market research first. The OP too, no?

<a href="http://fits.me/" rel="nofollow">http://fits.me/</a><p>These people are trying to solve this problem. They have also taken a very interesting route and built a robotic mannequin which can change it's shape.<p>In any case I don't think I will ever be able to give a better overview than the site itself.

It's funny.<p>If you want to look better than average, the first thing to pay attention to is how your clothes fit.

It is not possible to infer anything from such a low sample population (45). For statistically significant results, you would need to spend on the order of $1,000 not $100.

&#62; I dropped over 40 grand<p>Pick it up and be more careful next time.

But really, the best line from Good Will Hunting is the "how about them apples" line. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmRe_fK7pbw" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmRe_fK7pbw</a>