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How We Hire Developers at Treehouse

46 pointsby johnjlockealmost 12 years ago

17 comments

mfondaalmost 12 years ago
Summary: first interview the candidate to check for culture fit, then pay them to complete a 10-20 hour project. If the culture fit is good and project successful, hire.<p>As a developer I don't like the idea of having to do a 10-20 hour project as part of an interview, but at least they are compensated for it. I would love to hear thoughts from developers who have done a "project as an interview". Positive or negative experience?
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nawitusalmost 12 years ago
As long as there's no empirical data on recruitment, these "we think our process works well, here's how we do it" blog posts are not of much value.<p>One problem with step 3 is that it filters out engineers who are busy with their jobs and life, and cannot easily afford doing 20h extra work (even if it's paid work). Especially if compensation etc. are not negotiated beforehand.
naderalmost 12 years ago
Your hiring process sounds great from a company perspective. I just wonder how it really works out and if you find enough people this way. I've experienced that when you take too much time to screen devs, put too much test-effort on them, evaluate for a longer period of time ... they might just as well go to work somewhere else.
revelationalmost 12 years ago
I guess if you've put your whole life into a company, a question like<p><i>Why do you want to work at Treehouse?</i><p>makes perfect sense to you. An applicant, however, didn't know your company 15 minutes ago, and his main motivation is either money or finding a job that fulfills his desires.
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tptacekalmost 12 years ago
Please don't take this the wrong way, because I think a lot of very smart people disagree with my take on this, but: I hate pretty much every part of your hiring process, and could as a result use it as a springboard to talk about how we're trying to design ours.††<p>My problems:<p>1. Makes demands of the candidate before selling the role (in fact, explicitly!)<p>I recommend you don't do this. Instead, make a point of going out of your way to sell your company and your role to your candidates before you do <i>anything</i> to screen them.<p>This serves three purposes: (1) sure, it makes it marginally more likely that you'll keep high-value candidates engaged who'd otherwise fall out of your pipeline at/after "stage 1"; (2) more importantly, it helps disarm the interview process, both by establishing that <i>you, the employer</i> are going to put the effort and initiative into keeping the process running and establishing that tone for the whole process, and, even more importantly, by making the candidate actually want the job so they'll perform better during the process; and, (3) it's both the right thing to do and a noticeable difference from most firms' terrible hiring processes, which is good for marketing.<p>2. Is extremely subjective<p>Right out of the gate you're asking the candidate questions you can't possibly be benchmarking. "Code you're proud of"? What if the code the candidate is most proud of is something simple that been super useful on lots of projects? What if the candidate cherry-picked it from their code to demonstrate the most complicated stuff they've worked with? How will you compare it to every other code sample you get across the lifetime of your company? You're doing that, right? Keeping track of how well your hiring process predicts performance?<p>2a. Culture fit<p>Beware culture fit questions. You state it outright later in your process when you say (paraphrased) "you can train technology but personality mismatches are impossible". That's a recipe for hiring the same 10 dudes who like roughly the same X360 games. I know that sounds hyperbolic, but look around you at other companies and tell me that isn't a real concern.<p>Two other problems with culture fit questions: (a) they mask irrational responses from interviewers, which happen <i>all the time</i>. Some of your best performers do badly on interviews, because they just don't interview well. Some of those people (ironically, it seems to be those people in particular) will be hard on candidates who have the same problem. Why are you setting the expectation with your team that they should ding candidates for intangible, irrational, or subjective concerns?<p>In neither (2) or (2a) am I arguing that you should only be hiring based on measured defect density or ability to correctly estimate how much time feature X would take† or typing speed. If there are specific personality traits you need to select for, that's fine: just select for them deliberately, and train your team how to select for them, and track how you're doing.<p>3. The tryout project<p>This is going to make me sound like a jerk for at least 2 reasons I can immediately think of, but, to sacrifice (a lot of) tact for (a little) clarity:<p>I think less of teams that propose short contracting projects to candidates to try them out, because I would never agree to interview on those terms.<p>Here are the problems I have with this approach: (a) it invites/provokes an argument during your hiring process about what a good daily rate is, (b) it asks the candidate to negotiate an hourly rate in a situation where their leverage is egregiously compromised, which is unethical, (c) job searches are full-time jobs by themselves, and your best candidates are <i>almost invariably already employed</i>, so how could it be reasonable to demand they take a temp job with you as part of that search, (d) it requires you to demand the candidate produce billable work and assign the resulting IP before the candidate is sure they're going to accept the offer they might get from you, (e) the tryout project is deceptively low-information.<p>On that last point: I guess I've hired a person or two in my career that ended up not working out almost immediately. But usually, the dealbreaker problems I've had with coworkers or employees took months to surface. Lots of people can be productive for a short, high-stakes sprint. But virtually no dev team is hiring for that; they're hiring for the ability to be reliably productive, to exercise good judgement in design and estimation, and be compatible with the decision making process the team uses.<p>Yes, the tryout project proves the candidate can produce code you might deploy on your website. I hope I'm not the first to tell you that that is a very low bar; lots of high school students can do the same.<p>Please please please take this comment in the spirit I intended it. I expect lots of smart people will disagree with some or all of it, and would be happy to learn from them. I'm pretty convinced though that the conventional interview system that some of the smartest teams use is fatally flawed in a bunch of ways, and this hiring process is an opportunity for me to start talking about why.<p>%. One last point because I am on a tear about this lately<p>I would like to start establishing a meme: Job Interviews Are Hostile For Candidates.<p>Normal people don't enjoy interviewing for jobs. Normal people find the experience off-putting. They're nervous. They're dealing with a procession of people each of whose stated position is to judge them. Normal people don't like being judged by strangers. They sit there and read tea leaves from behavioral cues about whether they're coming across well. In my experience, this happens even in phone interviews, which (can we also establish this meme?) <i>are the worst</i>.<p>I am not saying don't interview people. I'm just saying when you do it, assume all the signals and readings you're getting from your candidate are janky as hell, because they are. Lots of strong performers can't do their best thinking and judging when they're conflicted and anxious. Compensate.<p>Whoah, long comment.<p>† <i>BTW: my favorite dev interview question</i><p>†† <i>There is a better way to write this paragraph but I'm pretty depleted right now so please excuse the clunky, combatitive tone.</i>
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posharmaalmost 12 years ago
And all this to cure hunger, cure diseases, cure patients, etc. Great going! Very motivated to go through the entire process to write a web application.
el_fuseralmost 12 years ago
This is better than a lot of the processes I've seen.<p>But.<p>Developers that do interviews seem to want a step by step algorithm for doing an interview... Or worse yet just want to throw them a topcoder style algorithm question so they can "spend" an hour on the interview and come up with an easy yes/no answer.<p>I've been conducting interviews for about 5 years and started out doing the same. I came to realize however, that we were rejecting perfectly fine candidates.<p>Several devs would either knock our take home puzzle out of the park or show us a great portfolio, but then would flub or stumble when the (mostly JR) devs would ask them to implement something akin to a topcoder challenge.<p>Now, much like we expect devs to tailor their resumes to us, I tailor my interview to the person being interviewed.<p>If you're relatively new, you might get asked some data structures / algorithm questions.. If you're senior expect to go into great detail about your past projects and design decisions.<p>There is no process or formula. Interviewing is an art.
pablassoalmost 12 years ago
Assuming those interviews with the team don't include these sorting coding problems that are so hyped this is the best process I've heard about.<p>I think any coder will be more comfortable doing real job instead of studying college stuff that you haven't done in years.
pyrealmost 12 years ago
Off-Topic, but you know you're spending too much time one HackerNews when you see "THE VENTURE BROS" in a sidebar and immediately think that it's some venture capital group (for 'brogrammers' or something) before reality sets in.
asperousalmost 12 years ago
Can we please get researchers to research:<p>(1) Different hiring practices and their long term success rates<p>(2) Different procedures (agile, scrum, cubes or no cubes) and whether they impact working efficiency<p>I just feel like everyone and their mom has these grand ideas about how they can do things differently than everyone else but I never get to find out objectively if they work.
praksteralmost 12 years ago
You lost me at your opening question. It's YOUR job to tell me about your company first and get me excited about foregoing the potential of the stuff I am working on. Only then should you ask me why I want to work for you.<p>I doubt you will get great developers that way.
joyeuse6701almost 12 years ago
The trial run is a cool idea, I could see it being hard to replicate for some businesses, either no project in the pipeline/difficult to scale past a certain size. Seems pretty solid though and much better than the academic coding questions.
nayefcalmost 12 years ago
First:<p>&#62; I’ve filtered through resumes and listened to coworkers...<p>and then...<p>&#62; ... which is why we don’t ask for resumes.<p>I am confused.
freeworkalmost 12 years ago
Like all other interviewing "processes", this is too much overhead.<p>I can tell after talking with someone for 5 minutes whether have the right stuff or not. You can tell by how they choose their words and express their opinions.<p>The best interview process:<p>1. Candidate sends company a resume.<p>2. Company reviews resume and likes what they see<p>3. Company calls candidate for a quick 5-10 minute call.<p>4. Questions asked are "What are you currently working on/thinking of starting" (referring to any kind of extra-work projects the candidate might have), "what is your favorite language and why", "what is your favorite library/framework and why", etc. Like I said before, its usually pretty obvious who comes from experience and who is novice. For instance if someone said they prefer PHP over C# because "PHP is faster", you can assume that person isn't the most experienced... The other day I sat in an interview where the candidate was an older guy (grey haired who graduated in the early 90s). Not even 25 seconds into the interview and I knew immediately that he was the read deal. It was something about how his stories seemed to have the right details. The problem is that it takes experience to judge experience. When I was 22 years old (which is the average age of most startup founders these days it seems), I would have been more likely to dismiss him as an old grey haired coot whose skills are outdated.<p>5. Company decided candidate is experienced and invites the candidate to a face to face. This may include travel expenses if the candidate is not local. At this point the company pretty much makes the decision to hire the person.<p>6. During the face to face, the objective is to give the candidate a clear description of what the company expects in terms of work hours, salary and benefits, etc. Also, what kind of problems they are working on, what kind of technology they use, company culture, etc.<p>7. Candidate and company negotiate, and then eventually agree on terms of employment. Candidate starts whenever possible.<p>The problem is that it takes a good developer to know another good developer. If you are a non-technical person, or a low-experience developer, you don't have much intuition to go off of. Instead you have to resort to making candidates jump through hoops by making them do things like FizzBuzz.<p>Another thing I should say. Interviewers should focus less on judging the candidate based on personality. The way I see it, as long as you're passionate about the right things, I don't mind if the person is prone to jerk like behavior every now and again. All brilliant people in the history of mankind have been described as "jerk" at one point or another. In my experience, the truly talented will always set aside their sometimes giant egos in the end for the benefit of the project. Its kind of like Justin Bieber. Despite him getting into controversy all the time, he still manages to get out there every night to put on a show that makes the fans keep coming back for more. The day his promoters stop putting up with his crap, is the day he fails to draw ticket sales.<p>In other words, more companies need to stop basing their hiring practices on repelling people prone to "Beiber behavior", and need to start basing it on bringing in people capable to drawing "Bieber crowds".
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EternalFuryalmost 12 years ago
That's the best hiring process I have heard of. Good job.
qqg3almost 12 years ago
Treehosue?
targusmanalmost 12 years ago
You misspelled treehouse.