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Where “nothing to hide” fails as logic

181 pointsby DASDalmost 12 years ago

15 comments

heliostaticalmost 12 years ago
I really like Daniel Solove&#x27;s paper on this question, &quot;I&#x27;ve Got Nothing to Hide&quot; and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy. In it, he cites the kind of response most people here have given as common and effective in the extreme case, but also notes that the flip responses such as &quot;well then, let me read your email&quot; don&#x27;t work for stronger, subtler versions of the &quot;nothing to hide&quot; argument.<p>The gist of the paper is that the easy answers already concede too much; they admit a very narrow definition of privacy. Namely, that privacy is the right of seclusion. Instead, he advances a broader conception of privacy (from his longer Taxonomy of Privacy) and identifies societal goods from privacy.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;papers.ssrn.com&#x2F;sol3&#x2F;papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;papers.ssrn.com&#x2F;sol3&#x2F;papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565</a>
alan_cxalmost 12 years ago
I might have have plenty to hide:<p>Hemorrhoids Herpes Depression I like to pick my nose I have a sort bit on my cock I don&#x27;t wash much I hate pensioners&#x2F;seniors I hate work I like Justin Beiber I hate my boss I hate my wife I hate my kids I think all policemen have issues I don&#x27;t like how Jews mix race, religion, and politics I&#x27;m irrationally scared of black people<p>Enough?<p>Now, if all or some of that were true, none of it is illegal, I would keep quite and always act appropriately despite my possible opinions, but like hell would I want people close to me or people I work with knowing any of that, let alone the government.<p>I have plenty to hide, maybe the above, maybe not. So, yeah, I have plenty to worry about.<p>Any one else?
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justinlloydalmost 12 years ago
People who claim they have nothing to hide never grew up in a small village or community.<p>People love to politick. People love to gossip. People love to single out those that are different. People love to be busbodies in other peoples&#x27; business.<p>Are you black? Are you slightly too white? Are you female&#x2F; Are you male, over the age of 19 and don&#x27;t have a girlfriend yet? Do you not get up before 10AM? Do you work odd hours? Do stay up late at night? Do you like &quot;those&quot; kinds of movies that aren&#x27;t our kind of movies? Do you prefer to sit quietly and read books? Do you not like killing small furry animals just because...? Do you prefer playing with computers? Are you fat? Are you not pretty? Aren&#x27;t you cool? Do you not like the manly, healthy pursuits like hunting, team sports (but only the ones we play) and fishing? Do you drive the wrong kind of car? Do you eat the wrong kind of food? Is your hair not quite the right length?<p>People that say they have nothing to hide never grew up being persecuted for things that were perceived as different. There is a reason that in Amish communities shunning is an effective punishment.<p>Beware not of the dictators of this world. Be afraid of the little Hitlers instead for the world is full of them.
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lotharbotalmost 12 years ago
<i>&quot;a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.&quot;</i><p>- Slochower v. Board of Education - 350 U.S. 551 (1956) <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;supreme.justia.com&#x2F;cases&#x2F;federal&#x2F;us&#x2F;350&#x2F;551&#x2F;case.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;supreme.justia.com&#x2F;cases&#x2F;federal&#x2F;us&#x2F;350&#x2F;551&#x2F;case.html</a><p><i>&quot;we recognized that truthful responses of an innocent witness, as well as those of a wrongdoer, may provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speaker’s own mouth.&quot;</i><p>- Ohio v. Reiner - 532 U.S. 17 (2001) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supreme.justia.com&#x2F;cases&#x2F;federal&#x2F;us&#x2F;532&#x2F;17&#x2F;case.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supreme.justia.com&#x2F;cases&#x2F;federal&#x2F;us&#x2F;532&#x2F;17&#x2F;case.html</a><p>This is why &quot;nothing to hide&quot; fails as logic. Even the innocent can be misrepresented or misunderstood in ways that appear criminal.
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Zenstalmost 12 years ago
One way to look at the &quot;nothing to hide&quot; argument is that it is always told by people who wear clothes, from there the paradoxical arguments will carry on.<p>&quot;I have nothing illegal to hide&quot; is what they really meant to say. But laws change and what was illegal today could be legal tomorrow and vice versa.<p>You can also view this as a variation of schrodinger cat, in that your data is inside a box and the question is are you a terroist with the answear being you are both a terroist and not a terroist until that box is opened. With that the NSA or whoever will not know if you are or not until they look.<p>Tough issue and one that is about as easily answered as knowing the life signs of a cat in a box without opening or interacting with the box.
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vy8vWJlcoalmost 12 years ago
One variation on the &quot; nothing to hide&quot; theme I hear (usually when I bring up Internet surveillance to non-tech friends) goes something like: &quot;<i>I only use Facebook for public things anyway</i>,&quot; or &quot;<i>I only want to Skype with my grandparents once a month</i>,&quot; or something else along those lines.<p>It&#x27;s hard to say anything to that since they are only making a decision for themselves; they have every right to.<p>What I would like to say, if I can afford to alienate them, is something like: &quot;Well, thanks. Thanks for making it harder to speak out or be different. Thanks for making surveillance OK. Thanks for making it OK for employers to ask for my passwords... Thanks.&quot; <i>facepalm</i> (I try to tone it down, but <i>sheesh</i>.)<p>RMS&#x27;s personal FAQ touches on this regarding Facebook, using the name <i>victim-coperpetrators</i>: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.stallman.org&#x2F;rms-lifestyle.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.stallman.org&#x2F;rms-lifestyle.html</a>
ianmcgowanalmost 12 years ago
I wish there was a snappy response to &quot;but I&#x27;ve got nothing to hide!&quot;. This article is not it. The slippery slope&#x2F;thin end of the wedge arguments rely on a potential &quot;they will take advantage&quot; event at some future unspecified date. And it&#x27;s a matter of faith to believe that will or will not happen.<p>The arguments about sharing your email&#x2F;going naked are missing the point - you may have plenty to hide from your neighbours, but given a level of trust in the government you might be ok with them collecting data that might help thwart terrorist plots. I don&#x27;t personally think that level of trust is reasonable, at least over the next 40 years, but my conservative friends certainly do.
kanzurealmost 12 years ago
Nothing to hide, everything to lose.<p>IIRC, there&#x27;s supposed to be a good counter-argument to &quot;nothing to hide&quot; that involves something about privacy being an integral component of maintaining the power balance in a society (ostensibly-)organized around individual freedoms and protections&#x2F;checks against its government and inevitable government bullying.<p>I just can&#x27;t seem to find any recent evidence of people remembering this from the recent articles&#x2F;comments&#x2F;etc.
m_darkTemplaralmost 12 years ago
I don&#x27;t know, I still don&#x27;t mind if the NSA has access to my data if they&#x27;re not allowed to share it.<p>I accept that things that I share on the cloud&#x2F;with big tech companies are probably accessible by someone. I don&#x27;t have any guarantee that the top people at Google&#x2F;Yahoo aren&#x27;t looking through my stuff--they certainly have the ability to do so.<p>As long as you&#x27;re storing your data in a service like this, someone will have access, probably multiple people. This new PRISM stuff just tells me that a few more people have access, it doesn&#x27;t really change much for me.<p>If you are concerned about this type of privacy I&#x27;d suggest living like Stallman then. It&#x27;s not as if you don&#x27;t have methods to keeping your data private.
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ksherlockalmost 12 years ago
My theory is that people who say that do have something to hide. For example: the NSA. It&#x27;s a perfectly reasonable statement from their perspective.
CurtMonashalmost 12 years ago
Two words: &quot;Chilling effect&quot;<p>When I googled to see if anybody else had made that connection, my main find was a DOD paper from 2004.
Millenniumalmost 12 years ago
&quot;Nothing to hide&quot; fails by the simple application of time. What qualifies as worthy of hiding or not changes over time, sometimes drastically and suddenly. By the time this happens, it&#x27;s too late to undo whatever you did that was considered perfectly appropriate at the time, and as unfair as it may be to blame someone for that, people WILL go after them for it. It happens every time.<p>Will this happen to you? Maybe, maybe not. Unless you can foretell the future, the only safe way to go is to assume that it will.
KaiserProalmost 12 years ago
If you have nothing to hide, then you&#x27;ll kindly hand over your bank details, passwords, don&#x27;t skip your porn stash.<p>Also I&#x27;d like your significant other&#x27;s mobile number. I&#x27;d like to see if I can get a topless pic.<p>Everyone has something to hide.
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nano111almost 12 years ago
&quot;Another interesting observation is that if the government claims to have not broken the law and has nothing to hide, why are they getting all mad from the leaks?&quot;
wavesoundsalmost 12 years ago
Its interesting I was also thinking &#x27;man I wish I could have all the information on me the government probably has, that could come in handy&#x27;. Relates to the personal API someone posted last week [1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;x.naveen.com&#x2F;post&#x2F;51808692792&#x2F;a-personal-api" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;x.naveen.com&#x2F;post&#x2F;51808692792&#x2F;a-personal-api</a>