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Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage using Norwegian laws

215 pointsby jensen2kalmost 12 years ago

20 comments

vidarhalmost 12 years ago
As a Norwegian, let me just say:<p>Yeah, right.<p>1. The Norwegian security services have a long history of violating Norwegian law (and when, for example, extensive illegal politically motivated surveillance of mostly left wing politicians was uncovered in the 90&#x27;s they then had the gall to place an MP and member of the committee investigating them under surveillance while he was working on the report about their illegal surveillance), and have always been extremely cosy with the US.<p>2. Most bandwidth to Norway goes via Sweden. Sweden is not a safe country to pass data through if you want to avoid surveillance. See the FRA law: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;FRA_law" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;FRA_law</a> ; unless they guarantee that they get their bandwidth via alternative means, this is a risk. Sure, you can encrypt the data, but if you trust that this is sufficient, then hosting your backups in the US should not a problem either. If you think Sweden&#x27;s neutrality means a shit in this case, consider that Sweden has admitted to having been complicit with renditions of political asylum seekers to the CIA in direct violation of Swedish laws, so clearly they do not worry about cooperating with US intelligence agencies. To hand your data over to the NSA would not even require them to break any laws, and they&#x27;ve already demonstrated they don&#x27;t have the moral backbone to stand up to far worse requests.<p>3. Norway is subject to the EU data retention regulations, and otherwise likes to bend over backwards to comply with EU directives despite not being an EU member (we&#x27;re a member of the EEA, which means we get all the directives, but don&#x27;t have a say - how anyone thought that was a better alternative is beyond me). In fact, Norway is &quot;best in class&quot; when it comes to implement EU directives - ahead of most EU countries... This doesn&#x27;t impact this to a great extent, except it means all your communications with this company will be subject to retention laws, and if you consider it important enough to avoid the reach of the NSA for your hopefully encrypted backup data, this is worth keeping in mind too.<p>In other words: If you encrypt your communications and backup files well enough that you believe it is safe from the NSA in Norway, they&#x27;ll likely be just as safe from the NSA in the US.
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jgrahamcalmost 12 years ago
If you want to have data storage that&#x27;s secure from the NSA then you are going to need to do client side encryption. Moving your data to a company&#x2F;country that promises not to access it isn&#x27;t going to cut it.
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brasetvikalmost 12 years ago
&quot;In Norway, privacy stands firm like the mighty mountains of Jotunheimen.&quot;.<p>Let&#x27;s not flatter ourselves <i>too</i> much: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;no.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Datalagringsdirektivet" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;no.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Datalagringsdirektivet</a> (in Norwegian, <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;translate.google.com&#x2F;translate?sl=auto&amp;tl=en&amp;js=n&amp;prev=_t&amp;hl=no&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;u=http%3A%2F%2Fno.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDatalagringsdirektivet&amp;act=url" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;translate.google.com&#x2F;translate?sl=auto&amp;tl=en&amp;js=n&amp;pre...</a>), or the less detailed <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Data_Retention_Directive" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Data_Retention_Directive</a>
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honzzzalmost 12 years ago
This is nice. But I think that the long term solution needs to be based on something that does not depend on the ability of your host to protect your data. The US is strong enough to pressure (almost?) any country to jump through hoops for them (we have seen leaks about their pressure on Sweden [1] or Spain) so just being out of their jurisdiction is not enough.<p>1. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;falkvinge.net&#x2F;2013&#x2F;01&#x2F;06&#x2F;banana-republic-justice-behind-the-scenes-of-the-pirate-bay-trial&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;falkvinge.net&#x2F;2013&#x2F;01&#x2F;06&#x2F;banana-republic-justice-behi...</a>
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atiripalmost 12 years ago
From the article &quot;U.S. law enforcement could use the USA PATRIOT Act on a U.S.-based organisation, like Microsoft, Google, Dropbox or Amazon, for example, to force its local subsidiary companies across the world into handing over user data to U.S. authorities.&quot;<p>Exactly how? By my understanding a company in EU operates under EU law and US parent company is only stock owner. Stock owner can not by my understanding force the company to do anything if the company does not want. Lets assume that US company does not want to force daughter company, how can NSA to make them?<p>EDIT: I&#x27;m fully aware that by harassment or blackmail anything can be done, no question here. What I meant to inquiry, out of curiosity, is, is there a legal way to _force_. I know that parent company can control and fire board etc, but can they be forced to do so. Or more broadly, can some US agency take full control of US company and run it like they please. Can f.e. NSA if they really-really wan&#x27;t to rise McDonalds burgerflippers salary by twofold? Does Patriot Act or something allow that?
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arkitaipalmost 12 years ago
This might become a major trend in the EU if hosting&#x2F;storage providers play their cards right. Sure the low prices, performance and flexibility of US providers are very tempting but surrendering your data to US intelligence agencies and god knows who else might no longer be a viable option, especially for government agencies and major corporations that might be targets of industrial espionage.
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toygalmost 12 years ago
The whole computer security business couldn&#x27;t have paid billions for the sort of free advertising they got this week...
qwalmost 12 years ago
The link should be updated to point to their own English version<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jottacloud.com&#x2F;its-your-stuff-guaranteed&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jottacloud.com&#x2F;its-your-stuff-guaranteed&#x2F;</a>
zokieralmost 12 years ago
I thought that the NSA surveillance was at least partially illegal. Laws (Norwegian or US) don&#x27;t stop TLAs doing what they want.<p>Also in a related note I find the following fairly unconvincing:<p>&quot;We will not hand over user data to authorities unless a warrant issued by the Norwegian court of law is presented&quot;<p>Warrants are in my view more about providing a paper trail than actually preventing abuse.<p>Ultimately I think the only protection against surveillance is well-employed cryptography. Especially if the law offers some protection for encryption keys and&#x2F;or passwords.
dotsidalmost 12 years ago
I&#x27;m moving away from Dropbox today. Thanks for this jensen2k.
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CRidgealmost 12 years ago
&quot;Vi vil ikke overlevere brukerdata til myndighetene om vi ikke mottar en kjennelse fra norsk rettsvesen&quot;<p>meaning<p>&quot;We will not hand over user data to the government if we do not receive a ruling from the Norwegian judicial system&quot;<p>which is pretty much the same thing as the Patriot Act in the US...<p>But as far as PRISM goes - that&#x27;s a whole other matter!
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gbrindisialmost 12 years ago
If you are in EU, Norway is pretty much transparent from a legislative pov. For example: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.autistici.org&#x2F;ai&#x2F;crackdown-2010&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.autistici.org&#x2F;ai&#x2F;crackdown-2010&#x2F;</a>
ryguytilidiealmost 12 years ago
United States Government:<p>-We are serious about creating jobs and supporting great American companies. -Makes the most lucrative young companies in the US unusable in the name of spying on their own citizens.<p>What in the actual fuck?
alan_cxalmost 12 years ago
Encrypt all you like. It boils down to this: Will a government make you prove a negative, and if you don&#x27;t, will it lock you up?<p>If you have encrypted files, there must have been or still be a key to decrypt it. You will be asked for the key. You will either given them the key, say no, or say you don&#x27;t have it. The first two are no good, so all you have is the denial that you have the key. If government cant find the key, you will be asked to hand it over.<p>And that&#x27;s the crux.<p>What then does the government do? All it can then do is make it an offence to withhold a key. How do they prove you have the key, if they themselves can&#x27;t find it? You then have to prove the impossible, that you do not have the key, a negative. Which, even if you are telling the complete god&#x27;s truth, you can never, ever, prove.<p>So, having an encrypted file, that you cannot or will not decrypt on demand is or will become a criminal offence. All encryption does, in the eyes of government, act as evidence of guilt. The suspect has an encrypted file, we can verify its contents, she wont give us the key, there for she has &quot;something to hide&quot;, and there for must be guilty.<p>I can well imagine encrypted files being stored like athletes blood samples, waiting to be tested or decrypted by future methods.<p>We can not win unless we accept so risk and stop expecting our governments to do <i>everything</i> to stop the bad people. If a bomb goes off in Whatevercity, we must not be angry if it happened because the NSA were NOT collecting mass data, or something similar. We must make it clear to government that we are prepared to trade the risk of being blown up for our privacy and freedom, and that if that freedom contributed to the attack, we <i>MUST</i> accept that, and not suddenly switch and blame government. And the NSA, and the likes, must be allowed to say, &quot;look we could have acted, here is the evidence, but we had to respect freedom and privacy&quot;, and not be lambasted for it. We have to reply, &quot;OK, fair enough, we understand and accept that.&quot; Equally, of course, we need to know they did everything else legally and morally possible.<p>Question is, are we as a people able to do that? Or do we expect zero risk lives?<p>And all that is assuming there is zero risk from the powers government wants. Such laws and thinking creates a whole new avenue of risk.<p>Which is why I for one am quite prepared to say to government, cool it down, back off, set some limits, respect those limits, and if you fail because of that, I both accept it and forgive you, because I want to be free.<p>BTW, one of the few countries I have been to is Norway. Beautiful, stunning, country and fantastic people. If I wanted to or had to leave the UK, it would be one of the first places I would consider. I&#x27;d love Norway to be the savior of privacy and freedom, but I sadly cant see it.
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znowialmost 12 years ago
The US has a great deal of influence in the west, especially NATO members. They will readily comply to avoid complications. No country wants to find itself on the US &quot;terrorist&quot; list.
Havocalmost 12 years ago
The memory stick under my pillow is pretty NSA proof too. Well unless someone in combat gear rocks up at my house...then all bets are off.
simplexionalmost 12 years ago
Spideroak...
readalmost 12 years ago
What is the best country that you know of to store data safely in?
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contingenciesalmost 12 years ago
NSA.no!
pinaceaealmost 12 years ago
erm, isn&#x27;t this assbackwards?<p>intelligence agencies, aka spies, <i>exist</i> to spy. that&#x27;s their entire purpose. now there are some laws to protect their own citizens, at least in the US.<p>once it&#x27;s a foreign entity, it&#x27;s fair game. zero fucks about legality given - see any info ever about clandestine services. so if you store your data in a non-US entity, you&#x27;re <i>more</i> likely to be monitored.<p>do you think STUXNET was LEGAL?<p>the NSA, CIA, MI6, BND, KGB, Mossad all ignore the laws of the countries they are acting in. or what do you think a spy is?