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Obama: If you are a US citizen the NSA can’t listen to your calls

113 pointsby chrisblackwellalmost 12 years ago

35 comments

belochalmost 12 years ago
Obama is still treating this problem as though it's a case of privacy vs security. The real issue is trust. U.S. citizens can't trust what private U.S. corporations tell them if the government has the power to coerce and then muzzle them. This is a poisonous environment to do business in. International business is going to go elsewhere, and domestic business will also choose to outsource to more transparent countries.
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gasullalmost 12 years ago
<i>the &quot;US Persons&quot; protection in general is a distraction from the power and danger of this system. Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it&#x27;s only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%. Our founders did not write that &quot;We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all US Persons are created equal.&quot;</i><p>- Edward Snowden<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.guardian.co.uk&#x2F;world&#x2F;2013&#x2F;jun&#x2F;17&#x2F;edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower#block-51bf317be4b0d3c14258337b" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.guardian.co.uk&#x2F;world&#x2F;2013&#x2F;jun&#x2F;17&#x2F;edward-snowden-n...</a>
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bobwaycottalmost 12 years ago
In which the President offers an amazing interpretation of what it means for a program to be transparent--i.e., that it allegedly goes through a secret court whose rulings are not publicly available.<p>This is not transparency. This is the regurgitation of obfuscating talking points.
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moreentropyalmost 12 years ago
I guess I&#x27;m used to a more technical definition of &quot;can&#x27;t&quot; than politicians nowadays.<p>Apart from that, I&#x27;m German, and every time I read this &quot;not to US citizens&quot; excuse, all I understand is that they&#x27;ll happily rape all my data without any questions asked.
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DanielBMarkhamalmost 12 years ago
In related news, policemen also cannot break the laws.<p>But isn&#x27;t it a good thing we have the public with their smartphones recording the police as they work? Isn&#x27;t it great that there are multiple separate, public, open channels to provide feedback when the police go astray?<p>The use of &quot;cannot&quot; here is very problematic.
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declanalmost 12 years ago
Unfortunately the truth appears to be somewhat different. See: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.cnet.com&#x2F;8301-13578_3-57589672-38&#x2F;snowden-nsa-snoops-on-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.cnet.com&#x2F;8301-13578_3-57589672-38&#x2F;snowden-nsa-sn...</a><p>EFF&#x27;s position (from the CNET article): &quot;The evidence shows that the NSA seeks a warrant only after the communication is initially acquired and analyzed by computers according to algorithms designed by humans, placed in a government database, and reviewed by an analyst.&quot;
drcodealmost 12 years ago
I think this interview perfectly illustrates the distinction Snowden mentioned between technical capability and policy.<p>Note that the president says &quot;if you&#x27;re a US person the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls&quot; instead of saying &quot;if you&#x27;re a US person, the NSA isn&#x27;t recording your phone calls&quot;.<p>The word &quot;cannot&quot; in this context means &quot;they aren&#x27;t supposed to&quot;, not &quot;it is technically impossible&quot;.<p>He&#x27;s saying that listening to your phone calls is &quot;against the rules&quot; but that doesn&#x27;t mean this data isn&#x27;t still being captured and put into an NSA data warehouse somewhere, in case circumstances change.
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eobalmost 12 years ago
Two elements of the government rhetoric surrounding this issue really bug me.<p>First, they use phrasing like &quot;listen to calls&quot; which is nonsensical in the modern world. If a computer observes all packets traveling across a fiber line, transcribes VoIP traffic into text, and then only persists counts of keywords to magnetic storage medium -- does that count as &quot;listening&quot;? If they do this proactively, but no human ever looks at those counts unless a warrant is pulled, does it count as listening? When we conduct the debate around outdated language, it is impossible to be specific about what is taking place.<p>Second, the government tends to regurgitate the law, rather than existing practice.
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mcphilipalmost 12 years ago
Lets assume everything said in the interview is true. This would only serve to reassure the public that the state is not proactively looking for threats among U.S. citizens. That&#x27;s a good thing.<p>However, as my only other comment on the leaks indicates, I still think it&#x27;s appalling that the infrastructure exists to &#x27;passively&#x27; collect the content of U.S. citizens&#x27; online communication in the first place. From my experience working with &#x27;big data&#x27;, the step of collecting information is the difficult part. Mining the data is relatively trivial and can be &#x27;switched on&#x27; at any point.<p>So my original concern still stands: there is no reason to assume that power won&#x27;t be abused in the future. What happens when a terrorist threat born and bred in the U.S. successfully attacks a target? I&#x27;m willing to bet these statements about not actively monitoring U.S. citizens would quickly be forgotten and new rationalizations would be put into place instead -- e.g. the state only searches for key phrases in citizen generated content, like &#x27;hate government&#x27;
ipsinalmost 12 years ago
Clapper: &quot;the NSA does not voyeuristically pore through U.S. citizens’ e-mails&quot;<p>Obama: &quot;the NSA can&#x27;t listen to your calls&quot;<p>The denial I would like to hear: the NSA does not <i>collect</i> your e-mails, phone calls or internet traffic. The lack of a denial is looking <i>very</i> suspicious, and a careful reader is forced to act as if it&#x27;s all being vacuumed up.<p>Their promises only relate to when that data may be used.
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bobwaycottalmost 12 years ago
A bit more thorough engagement:<p>&gt; <i>I don’t think anybody says we’re no longer free because we have checkpoints at airports.</i><p>I think there are actually <i>quite a lot</i> of people who do expressly argue that point in nearly those exact words. The point of contention is arguing we are demonstrably <i>less</i> free or more inconvenienced not because of the checkpoints <i>per se</i>, but because of the invasive procedures forced upon the public&#x27;s expectations of privacy and the protection thereof.<p>This--invasive violation of public expectations of privacy &amp; protection--is becoming a bit too much of a constant theme.<p>&gt; <i>[W]e don’t have to sacrifice our freedom in order to achieve security. ... That&#x27;s a false choice. ... To say there’s a tradeoff doesn’t mean somehow that we’ve abandoned freedom.</i><p>The President is an intelligent man with a solid grasp of language and its intricacies of usage. To admit there is a tradeoff is to implicitly assent to the sacrificing of freedom for said tradeoff (this, the achievement of security).<p>The bit about this being a false choice is interesting. The President invokes the fallacy of the false dilemma, which raises the expectation that there are additional options available--but not considered--where the goal of protecting freedoms and achieving greater security intersect ... <i>and then does not offer any alternatives or exposition on what other options may be (or have been) considered.</i> I&#x27;m left quite unsure of how he then considers sacrificing freedom to achieve security a false choice.<p>Moving on, this statement<p>&gt; <i>... the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your emails … and have not.</i><p>directly contradicts the followup statement:<p>&gt; <i>... if you’re a U.S. person, then NSA is not listening to your phone calls and it’s not targeting your emails unless it’s getting an individualized court order.</i><p>This strikes as more talking points rearing their head without substantive difference in an effort to shape public opinion and discourse. If it is said that the NSA cannot target emails and listen to phone calls, that is going to etch itself into the public consciousness that the technological apparatus required is not present. But the follow up clarifies in nearly identical language that the NSA is not listening&#x2F;targeting &quot;<i>unless it&#x27;s getting an individualized court order.</i>&quot; So now we are at the opposite side--the NSA <i>can</i> target your emails and listen to your phone calls, despite the aforementioned clarification they <i>cannot</i>. The talking points are keeping things intentionally muddled where they could easily make it more plain. So, barring other intricately worded explanations, this pretty much makes it sound like the NSA can indeed listen to your phone calls and target your emails, but only--as long as the existing rules are being followed--if they secure an &quot;individualized court order&quot; after good old-fashioned probable-cause seeking.<p>Of course, this is an even more bizarre clarification for the President to make when he later turns his attention to the phone records program. The 2015 Program:<p>&gt; <i>Program number one, called the 2015 Program, what that does is it gets data from the service providers like a Verizon in bulk, and basically you have call pairs. You have my telephone number connecting with your telephone number. There are no names. There is no content in that database. All it is, is the number pairs, when those calls took place, how long they took place.</i><p>Okay, so admission that bulk call data is there, as Snowden alleged with his leaks. Once again, the talking points that this is all metadata--without explicitly using that particular word, though. And yet, it is trivial to connect a phone number to its owner. So, <i>your</i> call data is there in the database with all the information required to identify <i>you</i> specifically should intelligence agencies deem necessary.<p>The President further clarifies the nature of the reporting in that he says &quot;[a]t no point is any content <i>revealed</i>&quot;, a perhaps unfortunate, unintended admission that the content is there. I know the President likes to be very clarifying when speaking and interviewing and somewhat sidetracks mid-sentence to clarify a specific phrase or term (note all the em-dashes littered throughout the text of the interview), but this one is particularly interesting because it reads as if he caught himself mid-un-truth when he jumps mid-sentence to say that if the FBI wants content, they then have to go to the FISC to ask for a warrant to get the content.<p><i>Any rational person should, therefore, conclude the content is indeed there to be interrogated, regardless of what the policy for such interrogation may be.</i><p>His comments on the 702 program are nigh-unintelligible for such a careful speaker as the President usually is. He tries to disqualify concerns about it by saying it &quot;does not apply to any U.S. person&quot;, then describes it as a program that produces &quot;<i>essentially</i> [but not <i>actually</i>] a warrant&quot; that compels private companies who hold communications to turn over the content. Then again, the clarifier that this does not apply to U.S. persons and is only in &quot;narrow bands&quot; of criminal&#x2F;terrorist activity by foreign agents. He further attempts to posit constitutionality and authority by saying &quot;the process has all been approved by the courts&quot;--but these are not publicly accountable courts whose decisions are made available to we the People.<p>&gt; <i>... if people are making judgments just based on these slides that have been leaked, they’re not getting the complete story.</i><p>Nevermind that we are only getting a partially complete story--being hidden behind curious clarifications and dubious assertions of state secrets privileges--because of leaked slides.<p>The big kicker:<p>&gt; <i>It is transparent. That’s why we set up the FISA court ... My concern has always been not that we shouldn’t do intelligence gathering to prevent terrorism, but rather are we setting up a system of checks and balances?<p>So, on this telephone program, you’ve got a federal court with independent federal judges overseeing the entire program. And you’ve got Congress overseeing the program, not just the intelligence committee and not just the judiciary committee — but all of Congress had available to it before the last reauthorization exactly how this program works.</i><p>This is more informative than most everything else in the interview. The President clarifies that--despite much of what campaign rhetoric made people believe he thought--his concern <i>is not</i> whether we should be enacting these intelligence gathering programs that target <i>everyone</i> and attempt to hide behind <i>policy rules</i>, not <i>laws</i>. His concern is the erection of checks and balances that appear <i>good enough</i>, but none of which actually are explicitly in the way of public discourse and notification.<p>He relies on a &quot;federal court with independent federal judges&quot; that operate <i>in secret</i> and whose decisions are <i>de facto</i> classified, as well as statistically shown to be rubber stamp decisions.<p>The biggest allegation is that <i>all of Congress</i> had this information available to them before the last reauthorization of the programs, information that told Congress &quot;<i>exactly how this program works</i>&quot;.<p>Either the President is lying, or Congress is putting on a sham of shock when they were already aware of all of this, or the President is throwing them under the bus for not bothering to read and understand the information before reauthorizing--thus making a move to avert public outrage toward their representatives, all of whom allegedly had this information and ignored it when reauthorizing. Or something else.<p>I still feel like this interview offers a depressing amount of talking points winning over actual disclosure, and yet another advance of creatively assigning words like &quot;transparency&quot; to programs that are clearly not.<p>[edit: spelling&#x2F;grammar mistakes. sorry]
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LoganCalealmost 12 years ago
I wish he had then been asked how they determine if someone is a U.S. citizen. From other sources we&#x27;ve heard that they only need 51% confidence that they are a non-US person.
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toufkaalmost 12 years ago
Every story on this subject from the government uses very specific technical qualifiers. &quot;Listen&quot; in this case. Likely there is some kind of natural language processing done to each call - either to give a complete (written) transcript or a categorical summary. In both cases the verb is not &#x27;listen&#x27; - but in both cases the action is similarly egregious.
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notatoadalmost 12 years ago
Why should we believe him? When companies are legally required to lie on behalf of the government, i find it hard to trust the government to tell me the truth directly.
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gfodoralmost 12 years ago
In Obama-speak, &quot;can&#x27;t&quot; means &quot;we have a law that says they cannot, so they certainly must not be doing it.&quot;<p>In human-speak, &quot;can&#x27;t&quot; means, &quot;do they have a system capable of letting your average NSA analyst do this easily without oversight?&quot; I suspect we&#x27;ll never get the answer to this question unless it is leaked.
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pla3rhat3ralmost 12 years ago
It comes down to trust. No one trusts Government anymore. They can get up on stage with pretty pictures and screenshots of &quot;proof&quot; that they&#x27;re not listening to calls. It won&#x27;t matter. No one believes them anymore. They have to fix that first and the only way to do that is to vote the lifelong Politicians out of office and get some fresh meat in there. Senators and Congressman need to have term limits. They collectively have more power than the President yet they can stay office for life. Checks and balances? Nope!
boi_v2almost 12 years ago
It is interesting how violating the privacy of a US person can be considered some kind of issue, not that big, but still a bit of a problem, on the other hand if you are a non US person everything is fine because your life doesn&#x27;t matter anyway.<p>This is exactly the kind of thought I hoped the internet would break, and I have worked quite hard to help it happen, the day of the feuds are over, no more lords to came and lie to us telling that people who lives on the other side of that river want bad things to happen us, no more divide and conquer, the middle ages is over, is it?
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r00fusalmost 12 years ago
Bush (2005): We don&#x27;t torture<p>Obama (2013): We don&#x27;t spy on citizens<p>The President really has no credibility here - it&#x27;s like asking a CEO if his company is engaged in illicit behavior - even if it is, it&#x27;s his job to say it isn&#x27;t (or that he isn&#x27;t aware of it).
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ksherlockalmost 12 years ago
<i>We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.</i> -- Barack Obama, 2009 Inauguration speech. (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.whitehouse.gov&#x2F;blog&#x2F;inaugural-address" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.whitehouse.gov&#x2F;blog&#x2F;inaugural-address</a>)
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IsTomalmost 12 years ago
US is not the Roman Empire and you can&#x27;t get away with &quot;only <i>our</i> citizens matter&quot; these days.
orthecreedencealmost 12 years ago
&quot;Cannot&quot; as in do not have the technical ability to, or &quot;cannot&quot; as in <i>absolutely have the ability</i> but are prohibited by some easily-ignorable legislation?
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jbennettlalmost 12 years ago
I think the core of this double speak or contradictory and obfuscatory vagueness solely is a function of not having poor Snowden under wraps. ie. they don&#x27;t really know what he knows or what he could say. So the gov&#x27;t has to be coy. If they arrest or grab him up (which it seems well within their capabilities to do) you will see the subtle tightrope dance Obama and company are doing change as they are now free to become positional and can control the dialog and the message. The message is we are telling the truth. He is a liar and a traitor. There will be no one out there left to refute it. Incidentally folks should read the USA Today account of the three former NSA workers who tried to raise alarms about all this years ago within the system and got treated pretty badly as a result.
namankalmost 12 years ago
&quot;If you are a US citizen..&quot;<p>The constitution of one country is being used to govern an infrastructure that powers many more.
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negamaxalmost 12 years ago
Yay! It&#x27;s Us Vs Them. You are all safe because you are in our club. Forget what&#x27;s wrong and right! &#x2F;s
DrJokepualmost 12 years ago
So how does this work? If I talk to my wife (she is a US citizen, I am European) on the phone about, say for instance, groceries, are the NSA going to listen to it?
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jedmeyersalmost 12 years ago
Title says &quot;If you are a US citizen the NSA can’t listen to your calls&quot; when in the text it says that &quot;If you are a US PERSON the NSA can’t listen to your calls&quot;. This is misleading as in reality the Fourth Amendment protects not only citizens but a broader group of people named &quot;the people&quot; in the amendment. As per United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez: The Fourth Amendment phrase &quot;the people&quot; seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution, and contrasts with the words &quot;person&quot; and &quot;accused&quot; used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that &quot;the people&quot; refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community. Pp. 494 U. S. 264-266.
milfotalmost 12 years ago
as a non-american - fuck you obama.. but I guess you know that already
arbugealmost 12 years ago
Well, I guess there goes at least the international business done by gmail, yahoo mail, etc. No guarantees there...
ninguem2almost 12 years ago
I hope the next web is faster, because on this one, the article took forever to load.
thequestionalmost 12 years ago
Look, this is what i want to know, whats the difference between this and the NSA separately collecting the data via the FISA court from google, microsoft, at&amp;t, etc.? Besides sludge-like speed?
chmikealmost 12 years ago
And non American are cockroaches with which you can do anything you want ?
thejerzalmost 12 years ago
Can&#x27;t or won&#x27;t? Or shouldn&#x27;t?
BarackObamaalmost 12 years ago
What I meant was look to me as an example. We can&#x27;t even be sure who&#x27;s really an American citizen, right Trump?! Fist Bump!
blibblealmost 12 years ago
the NSA can&#x27;t, but GCHQ can
lawnchair_larryalmost 12 years ago
&quot;It depends on what the definition of &quot;can&#x27;t&quot; is&quot;