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Sanskrit and Lisp (2011)

82 pointsby yatialmost 12 years ago

11 comments

Jdalmost 12 years ago
So there are several things in this article that are flat out wrong:<p><pre><code> (1) &quot;No wonder so many languages are derived from it.&quot; </code></pre> Not sure what he is referring to exactly, but Sanskrit itself is a descendent of proto Indo-European, from which many other Western languages were derived. So it is a near cousin to the original language of the Indo-European people, but not the direct ancestor of Western languages (this was a misconception of the 19th century linguists that &quot;discovered&quot; Sanskrit).<p><pre><code> (2) &quot;It is more expressive&quot; </code></pre> I assume by this he means you can do more with less. To a certain extent this is true.<p><pre><code> (3) Very systematic </code></pre> This is only true to a certain degree. Classical Sanskrit is itself not the original language, and probably the largest single pain point is the &quot;sandhi&quot; rules, in which words are combined together. Although someone eventually wrote down a large number of rules that shows how these changed together, they are more the product of slurring of speech over time, rather than &quot;design&quot; per se.<p><pre><code> (4) &quot;Excellent grammar&quot; </code></pre> Is a lot of grammar &quot;excellent grammar&quot; ? In Sanskrit, it does allow certain structures that are not available elsewhere (like the existence of a dual case), which presumably facilitate density, and, consequently, presumably also facilitates efficiency. If so, one could argue that the grammar of Attic Greek is more &quot;excellent&quot; than that of English. However, to me &quot;excellence&quot; is something that depends more on the specific use case -- a language that someone can speak and use is better than one that one cannot.
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lcedpalmost 12 years ago
&gt; Here is what I came up with during our discussion...<p>You are looking for reasons where there is none.<p>* Why Brazil speaks Portuguese? * Why do we speak English now? * Why do people in Ukraine speak Russian instead of Ukrainian?<p>Not because Russian is more expressive. But because they were killed for doing otherwise. It&#x27;s not about language features, it&#x27;s about politics, wars, colonization, economics.
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contingenciesalmost 12 years ago
Sanskrit is a festidious language that agglutinates huge numbers of tenses and forms in to a festival complexity that is a classical feature of the Indo-European language family. It might be great if you <i>feel like being really damn specific</i>, but it might also <i>suck</i>. It depends what you want to do with it.<p>I would posit that Sanskrit is more like <i>assembly language</i> (for its unique combination of specificity, table-thumping traditionalism, and verbosity). On the other hand, classical Chinese, which presents a roughly similar vintage literature, is a more fluid and combinatory system for type-indistinct component thoughts ... sort of like an extreme version of <i>perl</i>.
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mathattackalmost 12 years ago
One could take the analogy further - for the same reason people choose C versus LISP. :-) Sometimes structure isn&#x27;t the best (or quickest) solution for the problem at hand.
sravfeynalmost 12 years ago
Here&#x27;s the Google Cache <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XaBQEvNdzwEJ:ifacethoughts.net/2011/03/15/sanskrit-and-lisp/+&amp;cd=1&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=in&amp;client=ubuntu" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:XaBQEvN...</a>
zeckalphaalmost 12 years ago
It&#x27;s quite likely that natural Sanskrit did not have those properties, and all that has survived is the well documented formalizations of its grammar.<p>EDIT: By natural, I meant Vedic. Speaking as a linguist, I doubt that all of Sanskrit was accounted for when it was formalized.
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dkeskaralmost 12 years ago
Sanskrit is considered a &quot;refined&quot; language, implying serious effort to systematize phonemes, grammar, declension and even verb classification distinguishing recipient of actions (1-10 ganas, PP&#x2F;AP padas, etc.). Refinement can give subtlety, accuracy, concision etc. but does not automatically and objectively mean &quot;universal&quot;, &quot;perfect&quot; or &quot;excellent&quot;, even though proponents conflate those aspects.<p>IMO, Sanskrit persisted as the language of metaphysical and scientific treatises for a long time because of practical advantages. A large library of concepts, allowed easy reuse and concision [1]. Being trained in Vedanga (phonetics, metre, grammar, etymology, etc.) allowed practitioners to compose new sutras easily, much like PhD students using mathematical notations and proofs in papers.<p>It was used conversationally, at least in courts and debates. Its decline into a quasi-venerated read-only language over the last 1000 years would be an interesting (and contentious) topic for dissertation.<p>[1] Patanjali Yoga Sutras <a href="http://www.arlingtoncenter.org/Sanskrit-English.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.arlingtoncenter.org&#x2F;Sanskrit-English.pdf</a>
redofracalmost 12 years ago
Much like Latin, a good deal of the regularity is <i>because</i> Sanskrit is only a written language.
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eksithalmost 12 years ago
Very apt comparison considering I have the same problem with Lisp (and Erlang) as Sanskrit<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5452038" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5452038</a>
scotty79almost 12 years ago
Expressive, systematic, powerful - it looks atractive but none of that counts. What counts is ease of being copied and easy assimilation of unprecise copies. That&#x27;s why PHP rules the web and DNA rules the life and english rules the world despite their messines.
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pramalinalmost 12 years ago
Sanskrit is an artificial language. No wonder why it resembles programming languages.
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