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Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

625 pointsby mikeevansalmost 12 years ago

99 comments

otakucodealmost 12 years ago
The problem isn&#x27;t that these people can&#x27;t use computers. It&#x27;s that they can&#x27;t THINK. They do not understand what critical thinking is, or how it works. They do not know how to approach problems or explore solutions. They don&#x27;t know how to do it with their computer... or their car, or their vacuuming robot, or their television, or their oven or their relationships or any thing in their life. They don&#x27;t understand why the world is the way it is, they don&#x27;t know how to figure it out, and they generally think that trying is a suckers game.<p>You mention that there are always 1 or 2 kids a year who have already picked up programming or know how to build a computer... I think I would live for them. I was one of those kids, and I would be so excited for them that I would bury them in whatever help they needed.<p>For the other kids, I&#x27;d put aside the computers for a bit. I&#x27;d teach them critical thinking, because it&#x27;s really the only skill they need to learn (see the documentary &quot;High School&quot; by Wiseman for an excellent example of how reformulating every single class as being centered around critical thinking led a poor latino high schools students to accomplish the highest percentage of students to attain college degrees in the nation... while preserving their youthful exuberance for learning).
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simonsarrisalmost 12 years ago
I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the <i>perceived</i> judgement she might have passed on him.<p>Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn&#x27;t obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we&#x27;re sure of is that the author held <i>her</i> in such low regard.<p>I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did, and I suspect it contributes to the negative stereotypes that the author wanted to rail against by mentioning all this.<p>&gt; ‘Do you know where the proxy settings are?’ I asked, hopefully.<p>&gt; It took me about ten seconds to find and fill in the proxy settings.<p>Well for Christ&#x27;s sake don&#x27;t ask her something she almost surely doesn&#x27;t know if it only took you ten seconds of looking. Look for ten seconds first.<p>The first rule of any educator is to never, under any circumstances, make someone feel inept. And it was so easily avoidable here.<p>~~~<p>Of course people can&#x27;t use computers. They&#x27;re not trying to use computers. They&#x27;re trying to get X done. The computer is a device that, most of the time, <i>just gets in the way of doing X</i>.<p>Just the way that cars are a device that get from point A to point B. Few poeple get in a car to drive. They get in a car to locate themselves to point B.<p>In this case, the person can&#x27;t use a computer because people like the author condescend a bit, fix the problem in ten seconds, and don&#x27;t set them up to be just a bit wiser for next time.<p>The important part of the story is the part where the author explains that on some networks, you need to set extra settings so the office network can communicate with the outside world network. I hope the author explained what it took him ten seconds to do, so that she might be able to help herself next time. The omission (and disdain) leads me to suspect not, or at least that actually helping her was not an important part of the story.
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brandon272almost 12 years ago
I found that the author came across as extraordinarily condescending with the whole &quot;let&#x27;s get the president on the phone&quot; thing. I&#x27;m sure that the woman he was dealing with understood full well that the &quot;Internet&quot; itself was probably fine and that it was her configuration that was the problem. Though I guess he took the holier-than-thou approach because she didn&#x27;t use the <i>precise</i> terminology that he would have preferred, heaven forbid, which warranted him degrading in her a blog post.<p>Amusingly enough, I work in a web shop and I wouldn&#x27;t think twice about asking a colleague, &quot;Is the internet down?&quot; and he would understand full well that I was referring to some issue between our office machines and our ISP.
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3pt14159almost 12 years ago
People here are passing judgement on the guy for writing the post, but in reality his point is 100% correct: People don&#x27;t know how to use computers. It is way more important for us to have a generation of people that understand computers than it is for us to have a generation that understands how to repair a car. Computers bring along things like freedom of speech, digital currency, taxes, etc. Knowing how the internet works is paramount to supporting the proper policy decisions. The fundamental difference between well governed countries and the US with respect to internet legislation is the relative computer literacy of the people involved.<p>Beyond the political, much of our unemployment problem is less a problem of governance, and more a problem of a lack of appropriate skills. People want to raise the minimum wage, but that will not help the poor, what will help the poor is to make themselves more economically efficient. Being able to properly diagnose, design, and debug technology is a fundamental way for a country to stay competitive (read: first world).<p>Furthermore, the reason he (and I) are angry is that we grew up automatically freed since all of our programs ran with easily readable code (QBASIC). Kids these days don&#x27;t have that opportunity. Fuck, they can&#x27;t even RUN code they&#x27;ve written on their pocket computers without shelling out for a developers license.
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ethanbondalmost 12 years ago
So I take it the author can fix any brand of car and would, without missing a beat, answer questions like &quot;where&#x27;s the expansion tank?&quot;<p>I&#x27;m so tired of &quot;tech savvy&quot; people simultaneously sitting on their high chairs and large salaries dissuading anything that makes their trade less esoteric - and then talking down to those who can&#x27;t pierce the veil for whatever reason (whether it by financial, intellectual, or just not giving a flying $#@! about where proxy settings are).<p>EDIT: Let&#x27;s not build a generation of people who know how to navigate terminal. Let&#x27;s build a generation of people who will never have to.
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cliveowenalmost 12 years ago
Kids know how to use computers, they know how to make them do what they need them to: browsing, email, some text-processing. Everything else, and I&#x27;m sorry to break it to you, it&#x27;s the realm of technicians. The plumbers don&#x27;t expect the average joe to know how to unblock an occluded pipe, do they? Expecting everyone to know how to configure advanced settings in a computer just because you know how to do it it&#x27;s very condescending on your part.
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Phargoalmost 12 years ago
Wow...<p>&quot;TL;DR? Why not just go watch another five second video of a kitten with it’s head in a toilet roll, or a 140 character description of a meal your friend just stuffed in their mouth. “num num”. This blog post is not for you.&quot;<p>Snarky enough? If you start out like that I&#x27;ve already made the decision that you&#x27;re over opinionated and probably prone to dramatic exaggeration.
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VMGalmost 12 years ago
The analysis is good, the conclusion is questionable.<p>Of course a system administrator thinks knowing about computers is the most important thing.<p>A medical doctor thinks kids should know about medicine to stay healthy. A lawyer thinks kids should know about the law and know how society works. An athlete thinks his kids should play team sports and learn grit and be tough.<p>Like with everything in life, you should know a little about everything, but you can&#x27;t possibly know everything that is important.<p>EDIT:<p>My conclusions is that computers are still too hard and the future belongs to systems that have less failure modes.
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MarcScottalmost 12 years ago
Author here.<p>Thanks for the up votes and the comments - both positive and negative. I&#x27;ll take all feedback into consideration when I next post anything. I didn&#x27;t post this on HN myself, just added a link in a comment to another post.<p>Just to clarify - I do want to try and fix what I perceive as the current problem. I&#x27;d hoped the post ended on a positive note, but maybe people stopped reading. (It was rather long)<p>The TL;DR did have a question mark after it (although the rest of the punctuation left little to be desired). I&#x27;ve had positive and negative feedback with regards to this, so I&#x27;m leaving the post alone, warts and all.<p>I completely acknowledge that my post comes across as arrogant and condescending at times. Please realise that I spend all day being patient, polite and helpful to both my students and colleagues. My blog allows me to blow off a little steam every once in awhile.<p>Anyway, I&#x27;m very flattered to have made the front page of HN and I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;ll never happen again. I love this site and the community. If you want to berate me or support me then feel free to do so by replying to this thread and I&#x27;ll endeavour to reply.
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codegeekalmost 12 years ago
&quot;the problem is usually the interface between the chair and the keyboard.&quot;<p>Loved reading this. Well said [1]. I am sure this post resonates a lot with many of us. I remember a joke where someone calls the tech support of a computer company and it goes like this:<p><pre><code> Person: &quot;My computer does not turn on&quot;. Tech. guy: &quot;Whats the problem. Did you press the ON switch? &quot; Person: &quot;Yes of course. I pressed it twice already&quot; </code></pre> [1] EDIT : As other pointed out, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_error" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;User_error</a>
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barglalmost 12 years ago
Before everyone gets out their pitchforks and dictionaries, lets look at what he&#x27;s attempting to say.<p>I think he&#x27;s arguing that there needs to be a basic level of competence that we are teaching the next generation about computers. Not just how to browse the internet, but to do basic problem solving one something they own.<p>I believe this is true of anything you own. If my car dies, I can fairly easily determine the severity of the issue and if it&#x27;s simple, fix it myself. If my shirt gets torn I know how to put a patch on it or sew it myself.<p>I don&#x27;t think he wants everyone to be computer technicians (although that seemed to be the tone of his article). I&#x27;m assuming he was telling an exaggerated story from an exasperated perspective. Hey may have even been speaking in hyperbole to make a point.<p>My brother, who I love very much, is dependant on everyone around him. He can&#x27;t cook, clean, or navigate in the car. I do not exaggerate, I&#x27;ve recieved at least 4 or 5 calls from him (before GPS were packaged into phones) that he needed directions from X, Y cross streets to <i>insert address here</i>. He expected me to give him directions.<p>The sad thing is I did. I love my baby brother. I&#x27;m proud of him in many ways, but he has never HAD to do anything because we all fix it for him.<p>I recently just stopped helping him in these situations, and you know what? He now knows how to stop the car and get directions, or better yet take a GPS&#x2F;Map with him.<p>This isn&#x27;t a new issue, it&#x27;s been around for a long time. Teach a man to fish, vs. give a man a fish. &lt;joking&gt;I&#x27;m sure that quote was taken from someone else, but I don&#x27;t have the citation. &lt;&#x2F;joking&gt;
Kuiperalmost 12 years ago
I feel like the author defeats his own central thesis in his conclusion:<p><i>It didn’t used to be like this. Using an OS used to be hard work. When things went wrong you had to dive in and get dirty to fix things. You learned about file systems and registry settings and drivers for your hardware. Not any more.</i><p>In other words, people used to be technically literate because they had to be. Now, it&#x27;s possible to utilize technology without knowing how it works. Think for a moment about what that means.<p>This sounds very much like a case of a species evolving to meet its own (lack of) need. People aren&#x27;t tech literate because you don&#x27;t need to be tech literate to check your email on an iPad, just like I&#x27;m not very proficient in spear hunting because being able to hunt a wild animal is no longer necessary to feed myself.<p>Not everyone needs to be good at everything, and mastering skills has an opportunity cost. Yes, it would be nice if every teenager could spend the hours required to know how to install Linux and work around the Linux desktop environment, but how many hours would that take them? Every hour that they spend learning how to install and use Linux is one hour less that they have to spend on guitar lessons, or learning a foreign language, or automotive repair, or oratory practice, or whatever other pursuits they might choose to invest themselves in.
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jiggy2011almost 12 years ago
I don&#x27;t know if it was necessarily any better when computers were &quot;new&quot;, most kids in the 90s knew how to plug in a SNES cartridge and maybe launch a few games from DOS but the oft required &quot;boot disks&quot; were still a mystery to most.<p>Computers were much simpler then in terms of there being fewer moving parts in the software. Modern computers might be &quot;friendlier&quot; in some sense, but that&#x27;s only because we have had to build grand abstractions out of necessity. Once these abstractions break down it can be often difficult for even relatively tech savvy people to understand what is wrong.
cinquembalmost 12 years ago
<i>Tomorrow’s politicians, civil servants, police officers, teachers, journalists and CEOs are being created today. These people don’t know how to use computers, yet they are going to be creating laws regarding computers, enforcing laws regarding computers, educating the youth about computers, reporting in the media about computers and lobbying politicians about computers.</i><p>I feel like this may worry some, but for others who have no power in the societies we live in today (increasingly employing the use of computers), might find solace in that there is a future where they might be valued…
pykalmost 12 years ago
We have English classes since we need to read and write on a daily basis. We have math classes since we need to add&#x2F;subtract&#x2F;multiply on a daily basis.<p>But why don&#x27;t we have a technology literacy course where kids can learn about devices we interact on a now daily (hourly?) basis. It could be taught at a low enough grade level before the geeky become geeky so-to-speak. Something beyond just typing skills.<p>Demystifying the magic behind a computer&#x2F;smartphone&#x2F;tablet may even encourage those who wouldn&#x27;t give a second thought to coding to now jump right in.
daleharveyalmost 12 years ago
The fact that I am working in the same industry that has these characters as stereotypical archetypes depresses the hell out of me, the fact that this is an attitude thats likely being passed on to impressionable children outright scares me, sometimes I wonder if I got into computers for the opposite reason of everyone else.<p>Most people dont care about using an open source phone that is entirely useless as a phone, most kids dont need to know how to format a boot partition. The kids that are interested in it are amazing and get so much done precisely because they arent worrying about how to patch their graphics driver.<p>Also if you are going to be so exceedingly patronising[1], at least learn to configure a network that doesnt need you to manually enter a proxy.<p>[1] no, even if you do do that, please dont be so exceedingly patronising.
d4ntalmost 12 years ago
This got me thinking. I share many of the authors frustrations, but I realise that people are just trying to get a thing done, and they really just want to outsource all the IT knowledge, just like I want to outsource car maintenance and food production.<p>The real problem here is that the IT literate have historically been very bad at communicating how valuable their knowledge is to others. Just like the author, I do a hell of a lot for people for free.<p>I think the issue stems from the newness of IT, most IT literate people grew up in families where they were the computer whizz kid, and enjoyed showing off what they knew to their extended family, friends and neighbours. When we were 12, the praise, and maybe a bit of pocket money was all the thanks we needed.<p>Actually though, comparable fields of expertise charge a lot of money per hour and I therefore tend to approach them with respect. When I want a lawyer to arrange a house purchase I expect to pay a lot of money and even though I may just want the darn thing sorted, I know I have to listen and fill in forms correctly because holding up a whole house purchasing chain can have big consequences.<p>Like the author, I have been too willing to insulate others from the consequences of their computing mishaps without charging them for my time or making them listen to me while I explain what they should do next time. If more of us did that then perhaps people would be less casual about dumping their problems on us and expecting it to be fixed.
anonymousalmost 12 years ago
The title is better phrased as &quot;should you worry that lots of people can&#x27;t use computers?&quot;. Because of the obvious &quot;no&quot; response. No, you shouldn&#x27;t worry.<p>We&#x27;ve had computers for two generations now and the existence of people who can&#x27;t use them hasn&#x27;t made the world stop turning. People who do not understand things in general have always existed. People who make decisions about things they don&#x27;t understand. Politicians who make decisions about things they don&#x27;t understand. Always has been, always will be. Trying to educate them is a futile effort, we&#x27;re better off trying to find ways to get what we want or route around the damage. I would of course prefer it if that wasn&#x27;t the case, but it&#x27;s like wanting pi to be exactly 3.<p>Think of it like driving a car. I cannot drive a car. I have a license, I have taken classes, I have put in effort, but it&#x27;s just too complicated and unnatural for me; and I deem myself too dangerously inept to drive. To commute, I ride my bike, take public transport or pay other people to drive me. Same with computers - if you can&#x27;t use them, either do your job without one, or pay someone to do stuff for you.<p>You&#x27;d find it easier to make the earth spin in reverse than to make sure everyone knows how to use a computer.
javajoshalmost 12 years ago
We assume that growing up with computers makes you expert with them, when it doesn&#x27;t. I wrote about this last year [1].<p>Since then, I&#x27;ve realized something important: things fall apart. Always have, always will. It&#x27;s just thermodynamics. This means that we have to keep rebuilding our world. Which means that the people who build things really control the world. Remember that the next time a techno-illiterate sneers at you: you are building the world they inhabit, you get to decide what it looks like, so pity them.<p>[1] <a href="http://javajosh.blogspot.com/2012/06/note-to-parents-computers-arent.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;javajosh.blogspot.com&#x2F;2012&#x2F;06&#x2F;note-to-parents-compute...</a>
codegeekalmost 12 years ago
A lot of people are bashing the author and the article saying that the tone is condescending, kids <i>do</i> know how to use computers etc. I think his point is that kids do know the &quot;what&quot; part (browsing,texting,fb etc). The question is: do they know or care about the &quot;why&quot; and &quot;how&quot; part ? Should they care ? Should they not care ?
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noonespecialalmost 12 years ago
Not only did he not really help by not politely showing her how to select a wifi network... &quot;Here, this is easy watch, you get on wifi by...&quot; (He&#x27;s a teacher dammit. That&#x27;s his freaking job), his idiotic network settings and bungling &quot;proxy&quot; just broke her computer for later when that proxy is stuck in there and she can&#x27;t get on her network at home where there is no-one to help her set it back the way it was. How hard is a transparent proxy in 2013!?<p>He made <i>everything</i> worse and is now complaining about his <i>victims</i>.<p>TFA is like reading a &quot;User Friendly&quot; from 1998.
jredwardsalmost 12 years ago
It&#x27;s amusing to me that several of the top level comments here only reference the author&#x27;s initial story about helping another teacher, completely ignoring the latter three quarters of the article. It&#x27;s almost as if you guys didn&#x27;t bother reading past the first page to his actual point.
wfalmost 12 years ago
&gt;&quot;They click ‘OK’ in dialogue boxes without reading the message.&quot;<p>This. And you know what, as software developers, it&#x27;s partially our fault. Even I, as a &quot;kid who grew up in the tech age&quot;, do this (albeit rarely) as a force of old habit. Before I knew anything about computers the error messages that would pop up would sometimes be so obscure that there was really no other choice, you just get used to them being implicitly unhelpful. The other part of this is that society is so <i>rushed</i>. Who can spare a moment to read and troubleshoot an error message? &quot;Why won&#x27;t this thing just <i>work</i>!?&quot;<p>As far as people being able to &quot;use computers&quot;: I&#x27;m not completely aligned with this but I do question whether or not they should have to be a sysadmin to do so? I don&#x27;t have to be a mechanic to driver a car (as several comments have already pointed out). Computer&#x27;s are just tools to most people. They expect them to work and when they don&#x27;t do what people expect they call someone who knows about them to fix it; there is literally an industry built on this need. Don&#x27;t most of you who build software work to create something that solves a problem for a user? Makes it EASIER for them to do something that was previously complicated&#x2F;convoluted&#x2F;impossible? They&#x27;re just users, not domain experts.
cenhyperionalmost 12 years ago
As someone that grew up with computers and the internet I have numerous issues with this article. Mostly the expected level of knowledge about computers.<p>Most teenagers are decent typists, can navigate a well done website or application, can use word&#x2F;other programs to get work done, and are comfortable being on a computer. That&#x27;s what they should know how to do.<p>It&#x27;s us in tech who need to make things work for users, not users jobs to know how to install linux from source code. I&#x27;m going to go against the author and say that most users _shouldn&#x27;t_ learn linux, and should use easy to use software like iOS. It lets them get work done.<p>Most people don&#x27;t and shouldn&#x27;t have a reason to have a deep understanding of python, html, and the command line.<p>&gt;A hundred years ago, if you were lucky enough to own a car then you probably knew how to fix it. People could at least change the oil, change the tyres, or even give the engine a tune-up. I’ve owned a car for most of my adult life and they’re a mystery to me.<p>This is actually a great metaphor to show why the article is wrong. Cars became reliable enough and abstracted enough that you can confidently use one _without_ knowing how to fix it. Technology should be reliable enough that the average user doesn&#x27;t need to know what&#x27;s under the hood to use it, and that&#x27;s what we&#x27;ve seen happen with things like iOS and web apps.
DSMan195276almost 12 years ago
I agree on a lot of the points. I think a key here is that I don&#x27;t really think anybody knows what to teach people when they do teach them, and your beginning example shows it extremely clearly. You, having almost zero knowledge of OSX, managed to get things going for someone else who&#x27;s been using it far longer then you have. It&#x27;s not that you knew specifically how to fix the problem, it&#x27;s that you knew the basic idea of what was wrong, an idea of things to look for, and enough critical thinking to figure your way through it. Most people miss that point.<p>While a wifi problem may be harder to fix then others, in most cases a problem can be solved just by knowing the right info to type into Google and then be able to do a bit of thinking over the results and which seem reasonable to try. Not only that, but a bit of knowledge of some basic symbols (Like, Ex. The various Wifi Symbols, or USB Symbol) and some basic UI knowledge (Like, Ex. Knowing what a bar or panel usually look like, and what a normal OS UI look&#x27;s like. Text-Boxes, Scroll-bars, Check-boxes Vs. Radio-Buttons, Menus, etc....) go a long way.<p>I in no way expect everyone to become experts (I wouldn&#x27;t really expect people to become good enough to reinstall the OS, for example. At that point, you&#x27;d want to show someone who knows what they&#x27;re doing before going further). But, taking some time to teach some basics of more generic concepts, <i>how</i> to go about troubleshooting instead of just learning how to fix some basic problems, and some basics of where to look for various things goes a <i>very</i> long way.
general_failurealmost 12 years ago
Excellent article.<p>Many people here are missing the point of the article and are instead busy attacking the author&#x27;s writing style and some random lines in the article. It&#x27;s terrible to not try to understand what the author is saying and attack an article line by line. Please don&#x27;t fall into the trap of what many non-authors do: criticize line by line and miss the point. The author is a normal human like you and me and not some &quot;professional&quot; writer who earns his career by writing books.<p>I hope you get my own point in the previous paragraph and not shred my writing line by line.<p>Back to the article, what the author is saying is that technology is such a fundamental part of our lives now. Much more than a fridge or a car, because these haven&#x27;t become general purpose devices yet. Our laptops and devices store personal information and it&#x27;s critical that we are all educated on how the internet works and how our laptops work in general.<p>I love teaching but I am not a teacher. When I taught computers to my (50&#x27;s) mom, I spent the first few days just telling her the story of the internet, microsoft, linux and all that. She really uses the computer now. While she may not be able to fix the problems, I am surprised how capable she is to diagnose the problem and try to pinpoint the problem. It was just a matter of arming her with enough information to get her interested.<p>IMO, the main problem to be solved here is to teach computers in a way that it&#x27;s interesting to them. That&#x27;s it. Human nature will take care from them on - curiosity and knowledge.
B-Conalmost 12 years ago
&gt; I watch him type in his user-name and password. A message box opens up, but the kid clicks OK so quickly that I don’t have time to read the message.<p>Computer sends message to user. User quickly dismisses it without thought. This evokes mixed feelings from me.<p>First, unfortunately, we have spent a long time training users that computers output cryptic messages that they don&#x27;t need to understand. Anyone who used XP for more than 3 years is probably used to seeing odd pop-ups or error boxes from some application that&#x27;s spitting out some message (possibly too often) that the user doesn&#x27;t know. They&#x27;re used to seeing things crash, and they&#x27;re used to messages being too technical to be actionable. That is in part our (development) fault.<p>However, things are better now. If a message box pops up, you probably should read it. You should pay attention to what the computer says. I think that people so often just don&#x27;t care what it is because they guess that it won&#x27;t get in their way for their <i>immediate</i> task so they don&#x27;t want to bother. Or, worse, they&#x27;re afraid it will require some thought&#x2F;energy (even if it&#x27;s small) to understand and take appropriate action, and they&#x27;re crossing their fingers and hoping that ignoring it is for the best.
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bambaxalmost 12 years ago
&gt; <i>a kitten with it’s head in a toilet roll</i><p><i>its</i> head<p>If your plan is to insult readers before they even start to read your rant, can you at least make an effort to spell your insults correctly?
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Raphmediaalmost 12 years ago
I am laughing pretty hard at all the comment here that rants on the first few paragraph and then brings points that are actually covered later on in the article...<p>Yes, he is being harsh with the teacher. Yes, cars are complicated.<p>That&#x27;s not the point. Read the full article...
cupcake-unicornalmost 12 years ago
This article was helpful for me. Why? Because I guess I &quot;know&quot; this in theory, but I surround myself with very intelligent people, mostly who are in the field of IT, and I don&#x27;t so much hang out with younger people from the age of 20-25.<p>I grew up with computers, and unlike now, when things were starting out, you actually had to be a little bit clever to use one. I rolled my eyes at my dad as a kid when for fun he typed &quot;DEL <i>.</i>&quot; at the C: prompt of his new DOS machine. Doing command line stuff like that, while not at by any means an advanced level of computer sophistication, is a far cry from people growing up with extremely user friendly things like Ipads, only having to press a few buttons to get things done, and very idiot proof.<p>But at the same time, since it comes so naturally to me, I do tend to forget that the skills I have are that technical or unusual. Reinstalling Windows? Installing Linux? Putting together a computer from scratch? I mean..even if you don&#x27;t know how to do it, you can Google it. But then I get snapped back into reality, like when my parents call me up and say they hired their friend&#x27;s son to fix their PC, a &quot;computer whiz&quot;, who obviously about a minute or so into the conversation has no real or deep understanding about computers whatsoever - probably just some gamer or something.<p>It&#x27;s awful too, since I&#x27;m a woman and I see other non tech savvy women perpetuating that sterotype. I went to get my hair cut, and one of the employees was trying to get a Netbook to work. &quot;This thing is so slow. It doesn&#x27;t even have any RAM!&quot; she claimed, loudly. Since I was waiting on the stylist, I told her that I could take a look. &quot;No thanks,&quot; she said while barley looking my way, &quot;My husband&#x27;s in IT, so I&#x27;ll just call him.&quot; I then had to to listen to an excruciating phone call while she called up her husband which made it pretty clear also that the husband also &quot;can&#x27;t use a computer&quot;.<p>Sigh.
makeropsalmost 12 years ago
&quot;I looked at the MacBook. I had no experience with OSX at the time. Jobs wasn’t an idiot though, and displayed proudly in the top right hand corner of the screen was a universally recognisable WiFi symbol. It took me seconds to get the device on the network.<p>I handed back the MacBook and the woman opened up Safari. ‘The Internet’s not working.’ she stated with disdain.&quot;<p>This, while I may be reading WAY too much into it, is a great display of how I used to think about what I do for a living, and conduct business. You are asked to do X, so you do X. What your client really wants is Y. She wanted to browse the web, not getting her there before you hand the laptop back is fruitless and frustrating to her, the same goes for a client.
wavesoundsalmost 12 years ago
The problem is people are ok or are even proud of not knowing how their stuff works, even the author isn&#x27;t ashamed that he has to ask a salesmen what car to buy. People in Africa can take apart your car and put it back together, people in India can become experts in computing from a computer stuck in a wall[1].<p>Rich lazy first world humans are proud of the fact that they have advanced technology they don&#x27;t need to understand, its a sign of luxury and &#x27;success&#x27; like new clothes you just throw away as fashion changes.<p>1.<a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_educa...</a>
pqdbralmost 12 years ago
I had some good laughs reading this article, and I agree with almost everything the author wrote.<p>I then came here to read the comments and it&#x27;s just everybody complaining and nitpicking about every single comma in the article. GOD, this is getting tiring.
king_jesteralmost 12 years ago
Technical literacy for the avg computer user could be better, but the examples cited aren&#x27;t surprising because those situations ARE confusing. Let&#x27;s break it down:<p>* Someone&#x27;s MacBook doesn&#x27;t connect to the internet. This is because 1) the wi-fi is turned off and 2) the school has a burdensome proxy policy. On (1), there is a huge disconnect between understanding that wi-fi functions like a radio with an on&#x2F;off state and how many devices today are persistently connected via wi-fi or 3g&#x2F;4g cell networks (tablets, phones). On (2), the proxy policy deliberately conflicts with how people expect to connect to and use the internet and entering proxy details is not a common activity for most people.<p>* Someone has embedded a YouTube video into a powerpoint presentation. The user has saved this ppt on a flash drive and is confused as to why the video will not load. There is already a disconnect between the fact the video is embedded while the ppt file itself is portable. This is a failing of the design of PowerPoint, presentations are very often to be considered portable once saved even though the content in the presentation may not be portable. Further, the proxy blocks YouTube streaming (why god why) so this user would be unlikely to find an app&#x2F;add-on to rip the video and then pack it into the PowerPoint because this is entirely contrary to how you expect to use YouTube.<p>* A user&#x27;s laptop is running very slowly due to virus infection. The user didn&#x27;t get anti-virus automatically included on their machine even though they are downloading tons of content. This is a massive design fail, anti-virus should be automatic and transparent on new installs.<p>* A user complains of a computer not turning on, but it turns out the machine is on and the monitor is off. There is a reason why Mac desktops are designed as single machine&#x2F;monitor units, the disconnect between machine and display is not intuitive or well understood, esp. in the age of tablets and phones that are single cohesive computers with displays. Just try and watch the average person set up a TV set to various peripherals and you&#x27;ll see this same thing happen.<p>* A user cannot connect to the internet even after trying various software settings. It turns out the hardware wireless toggle is off. Either the hardware or OS itself didn&#x27;t inform the user of what was going on, this is a massive design fail.<p>* A user attempts to log in to a network site&#x2F;computer. The user dismisses error dialogs instantly. The problem is the machine is not connected to the network via ethernet. This is already a nexus of various design problems: dialog fatigue, the concept of network login vs. local login, and assumptions about connectivity being automatic through wi-fi vs. cabled network connections. The vast majority of people, including programmers, make huge mistakes about this kind of thing all the time, do we expect the average person to get it?<p>* A user has a new iPhone and is sad about loss of contacts. When plugging in to the user&#x27;s laptop, the iTunes backup is able to be restored to the phone. iTunes does make the backup process transparent, but terrestrial backups are not nearly as good as cloud backups for this kind of thing. Android makes this much easier for the average person, restores are opt-in by default when setting up new devices and there&#x27;s not need to physically connect to a computer.<p>* A user complains of not having internet access. They have associated the browser shortcut icon with internet. As more items were saved to the desktop, the icon shifted from its original location. Mechanics of file systems and browsing file systems isn&#x27;t well understood by the average user. This is why whole volume backups are the easiest kind of backups to get someone to performs (esp. if those backups are automatic). This is also why Android and iOS devices try to hide the underlying file system, it is confusing and not well understood (apparently even by devs judging by the assumptions on file systems on StackOverflow).<p>* A user thinks they have a virus. What they are actually looking at is a spam ad designed to mimic native UI of an older Windows platform. There is a reason why scammy malware ads and sites do this, it is effective because users do not conceptually understand the difference between the browser and websites as separate entities from the OS they use the browser on. In fact, most people don&#x27;t even conceptually understand how browsers and webpages work at all.
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tenpoundhammeralmost 12 years ago
&quot;I want the people who will help shape our society in the future to understand the technology that will help shape out society in the future.&quot;<p>The people who shape our society will know what they need to know. I&#x27;m not sure a great understanding of a desktop PC is going to change this.<p>On a separate note, the author is demanding that everyone be super knowledgeable about a set of devices that is on it&#x27;s way out. I think it&#x27;s far more relevant for people to understand how their phones,tablets, and the internet work than understanding how to re-install windows...
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networkjesteralmost 12 years ago
I personally thought this was a very good article. It definitely gave me a lot to think about with regard to how much I help my family members fix their computer problems instead of &quot;teaching them to fish&quot; so to speak.<p>First thing that came to mind for this:<p>&gt; When they hit eleven, give them a plaintext file with ten-thousand WPA2 keys and tell them that the real one is in there somewhere. See how quickly they discover Python or Bash then.<p>Was &quot;How will they learn Python without Google&quot;? Only to look to my right and see my Python book. <i>facepalm</i><p>Agh, the dependence.<p>Well done!
mannkindalmost 12 years ago
While I do kind of agree with parts of the article, the author proposes some seriously nonsensical &quot;solutions&quot;.<p>Especially this gem:<p>&quot;&quot;&quot; Mobile [...] I use Ubuntu-Touch, and it has possibilities. [...] Okay, so I can’t use 3G, it crashes when I try to make phone calls and the device runs so hot that when in my jacket pocket it seconds as an excellent nipple-warmer, but I can see the potential. &quot;&quot;&quot;<p>To learn more about &quot;mobile&quot; the author proposes using a something that&#x27;s not functional ... yeah, that makes sense.
PhasmaFelisalmost 12 years ago
I worked help desk in my university&#x27;s computer labs for several years, and got consistently good reviews. When I fixed someone&#x27;s problem, I made a point of explaining what I was doing as I went. I wasn&#x27;t just pretending to be polite; I really do enjoy helping people to get a better understanding of their world. Sure, it&#x27;s obvious to <i>me</i> that you need to empty the recycle bin before the space is really freed up, or that saving a shortcut to a file won&#x27;t let you access the original from another computer. I&#x27;m sure my users know any number of &quot;obvious&quot; facts about math or architecture or medicine that would&#x27;ve left me dumbfounded. What right do I have to claim that my domain of knowledge is more important? If I&#x27;m pleasant and helpful and educational, then the student can solve their own problem the next time and my job is easier.<p>I&#x27;m pretty sure I was the only person in the entire campus-wide computer lab system who felt that way. Sometimes students held on to complex problems until my next shift because they knew I was the only one who would actually explain the problem. Techs all over the world seem to treat clients as unteachable idiot annoyances to be shuffled through as quickly as possible, so they can get back to what&#x27;s really important: complaining on the internet about how nobody understands computers.
H4wk_czalmost 12 years ago
<i>The county proxy is there to ensure that the staff and students can’t access porn on the school network. It also filters for violence, extremism, swearing, social networks, alcohol, smoking, hacking, gaming and streaming video. Ironically, if you were to perform a Google search for “proxy settings OSX”, the top results would all be blocked because you used the word ‘proxy’ and that is a filtered word.</i><p>That was the most interesting part for me. It&#x27;s crazy that people are ok with it.
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kyroalmost 12 years ago
This really, really hits close to home. I&#x27;m the oldest of 3 brothers, me 26, the youngest 21. I was always an &#x27;experimenter&#x27; with computers, meaning I had no problem toying with the settings or clicking through unknown menus to find the solution to a problem. I toyed and tweaked until something worked, and that willingness to explore has helped me innumerable times throughout life.<p>My brothers, for some strange reason, did not develop that ability. The <i>second</i> something goes wrong on their computer, they freeze, deer in front of a lighthouse. Everything from installing apps, to fixing wifi settings, to customizing their desktops, to updating their iPhones, is a situation that causes panic. These guys are otherwise very functional, and very educated. One of them went off to grad school the other day with a new macbook, and after already having one for 4 years, asked me to &quot;set up&quot; his computer, which consisted nothing more of going through the walk-through for new OSX users.<p>It is one of the most frustrating and mind-boggling things. You can often hear me yelling at them, whether in person or over the phone, &quot;You need to figure out yourself! Just play around with the damn computer! It&#x27;s not going to explode!&quot;
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phusionalmost 12 years ago
Regardless of the attitude of the author, I loved this article. I&#x27;m 30, been in IT since 1999 or so and recently I&#x27;ve thought that maybe the younger generation would start filling positions that I&#x27;d normally be a shoe in for. This is not the case, they&#x27;re great at web apps and wasting time online, but when it comes to hardware, networking concepts etc.. they&#x27;re lost. It&#x27;s sad, but it also makes me feel secure :)
saltyknucklesalmost 12 years ago
The TL;DR makes this guy sound like a prick.
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SamBoogiealmost 12 years ago
I love hacker News and wouldn&#x27;t consider posting this unless I were certain that it applied. My friends and I are working on a game that will teach players (mainly kids) how to code. We have done workshops in NYC, Philly and Sheffield, England. I&#x27;d love for you guys to take a look at it and give feedback, we think we&#x27;re making something pretty cool. www.betathegame.com
mgaphysicsalmost 12 years ago
The authors&#x27; attitude, while polarizing, is not really as important as the underlying issues that the article is trying to address. I agree and disagree with a few of his points, but just understanding the current environment in education, there are too many obstacles to overcome systematically.<p>How do you strike a balance between budget, administration, curriculum, and execution. Inevitably, one of these stakeholders prevents change and growth.<p>In the end, it may fall upon us tech professionals to continually improve UX. As far as the masses are concerned, that is the point of our professional existence. When a car breaks, they want a mechanic. When a computer doesn&#x27;t connect to the inter-nets, they want a tech professional.<p>Just to throw it out there. Think of how much tech has advanced in the last ten years (Google is only 10yrs old)... do you really think, knowing what you know about agility in education, that public schools could have kept pace??? There are tech giants that have fallen by the wayside over the same period of time.
cbhlalmost 12 years ago
Having been that kid that plugs the Ethernet cable back in for the kid sitting next to him, and figures out how to connect the projector to the computer at the start of class, I understand where the author is coming from and I am similarly concerned that people are not more up in arms about Internet censorship in the UK, yada yada.<p>So, yeah, the tone is a little harsh, but if I had to deal with these sorts of user support requests every day on top of teaching class, I&#x27;d be grumpy too.<p>Managing a network when all the users BYOD and&#x2F;or have administrator access isn&#x27;t as trivial as the author makes it out to be; I remember wiping &quot;Deep Freeze&quot; off of a school computer unintentionally once when I installed Ubuntu on it in dual-boot from a CD. Eventually the school district moved to a thin-client solution; wasting the thousands of dollars they had spent buying (then) cutting-edge general-purpose computers in the first place. But it&#x27;s certainly the ideal; it&#x27;s what I think we should be aiming for.
chrisgdalmost 12 years ago
This really resonated as I am probably technology illiterate in a lot of things and I would hope my son isn&#x27;t. Thanks for some ideas.
ChuckMcMalmost 12 years ago
Interesting comments. I got that this guy was burned out. I know that feeling, how many times can someone say &quot;The Internet it down&quot; and you have told them the steps to identify what is the problem and often fix it?<p>I really applauded Microsofts work on &quot;Trouble Shooters&quot; which would walk you through those steps. Each one saying &quot;Is it better now?&quot; and if you got to the end it would send a report to Microsoft.<p>More importantly the message though is that a large number of people use &quot;computers&quot; when what they wanted were &quot;appliances.&quot; Specifically it always does what its job. No programability required. This is what makes the Chromebook and things like it so powerful for those people. Turn it on it works, if not you get a new one.<p>The dissonance of people who use a software tool, and that forces them to use a computer to run it, versus the people who use a computer that has a number of different software tools is getting stronger.
gambitingalmost 12 years ago
I could also add that nowadays people don&#x27;t know how to use cars. They might as well be magical boxes that take us places and nothing that happens underneath the bonnet is important. And just like in this article - there are people who are perversely proud of it. They are proud that they don&#x27;t know how to change a wheel, how to check oil level, or even refill the washer fluid. In fact, they don&#x27;t even know HOW to open a bonnet. I know people who could ignore the most obvious of signs that something is wrong - loud noises, visibly low pressure in the tyres, high&#x2F;low running temperature......<p>In fact, I imagine we could write an article like this for pretty much everything. I knew a guy who would call an electrician to change his lightbulbs. People don&#x27;t know how to use anything, and there is nothing we can do about it,since most people are incapable of being mentally engaged in something they don&#x27;t care about.
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salemalmost 12 years ago
People may not like how this message is delivered, but I&#x27;ve worked support at a university full of supposedly smart people and saw the same sort of things. It&#x27;s a real issue that I hope the raspberry pi and associated efforts do something to address. My favorite IT request was someone asking to put the internet on a disk for them.
lucb1ealmost 12 years ago
This article gets so much right. I was initially offended by the TL;DR; I read it hoping to get a quick gist of what it was about but instead was told that I should go watch kitten videos. Reading on, it shares so many of my opinions. Even the small paragraph about driving your own car or having Google drive it for you strikes home. I&#x27;ve talked about that with people and everyone&#x27;s still like &quot;I&#x27;m sure we&#x27;ll keep driving for a good while because it&#x27;s fun&quot;. I fully agree with the author on every point he made in the article.<p>One of my favorite parts:<p>&gt; <i>Cameron announces that ISPs are going to start filtering The Internet. It’s described as a ‘porn filter’, but the Open Rights Group’s investigations implies that far more than porn will be filtered by default. Then to top it all, Cameron’s chief advisor on this issue has her website hacked and displays just how technically illiterate she really is.</i>
ImprovedSilencealmost 12 years ago
first thing that struck me, the author complains about a stigma attached to knowing how computers work: &gt;&gt;&quot;Rather than being some faceless, keyboard tapping, socially inept, sexually inexperienced, network monkey, she now saw me as a colleague. To people like her, technicians are a necessary annoyance. She’d be quite happy to ignore them all, joke about them behind their backs, snigger at them to their faces,&quot;<p>AND THEN, goes on to declare that yes, he is normally a sarcastic bastard who makes big deals out of inane verbiage: &gt;&gt;&quot;Normally I pull out my mobile phone and pretend to tap in a few numbers. Holding the handset to my ear I say ‘Yes, give me the office of the President of the United States… NO I WILL NOT HOLD, this is an emergency… Hello, Mister President, I’m afraid I have some bad news. I’ve just been informed that The Internet is not working.’&quot;<p>And you wonder where the stereotypes come from....
analog31almost 12 years ago
Why didn&#x27;t the MacBook just configure itself?<p>What basic computer skills should everybody possess? In my view, the answer is: None. My rationale is that any skill considered to be universal enough for everybody to know, should be taken care of by the computer -- especially if the computer is sold on the premise that &quot;it just works.&quot;<p>I&#x27;ve been hacking since 1981, and I wouldn&#x27;t have guessed the need to configure the MacBook for a proxy server, or that the proxy was blocking the embedded YouTube video.<p>On the other hand, I want my own kids to learn how to hack. We have 4 Raspberry Pi&#x27;s in the house. The kids are learning HTML and Python. But why? My motive isn&#x27;t to teach them &quot;skills,&quot; but just to see if it sparks their interest. Also, I think that given the ubiquity of programming as an intellectual pursuit, and its impact on society &amp; history, it ranks as a &quot;liberal art&quot; alongside calculus.
buckyballalmost 12 years ago
Making things foolproof results in better fools.<p>But, I really would like to admit that things like &quot;WPA2 Enterprise&quot; or &quot;Proxy&quot; are really at least more than special in terms of common language. Looking at the TV analogy OP made, I would like to throw in this piece of information:<p>Even getting a new TV up and running is some kind of rocket science nowadays. This is what it is like in Germany right now:<p>Step 1: buy TV at local dealer.<p>Step 2: At home, the TV is asking you to tell him what kind of signal you have:<p><pre><code> * Cable, analog * Cable, digital * DVB&#x2F;T (terristical, antenna on roof or indoor) * Sat, satellite analog * DVB-S, satellite digital * DVB-S2, satellite digital h264 HD </code></pre> Step 3: Call son or husband of daughter to setup this strange device: &quot;All I wanted is to watch TV!!!!eleven!&quot;<p>And that is not even close to the confusion happening when the wifi and apps settings are popping up.
csensealmost 12 years ago
I was one of the kids who could use computers. I got a lot of negative reactions from teachers whenever I used the DOS prompt for anything. Kids in high school who know programming or other advanced tricks learn quickly that the teachers finding them using what they know often leads to censure or even punishment.<p>So the &quot;good kids&quot; who follow all the rules will leave that stuff at home and play dumb in school. The &quot;rebels&quot; who like to push boundaries will make sure the teachers don&#x27;t find out.<p>So I&#x27;m betting there are plenty of bright kids who know a lot about computers in the author&#x27;s classes, and they&#x27;re all keeping their heads down. Doubly so if the author has a reputation for being angry and judgmental. (I didn&#x27;t think this article was particularly offensive, but other commenters disagree.)
Houshalteralmost 12 years ago
I don&#x27;t really think it&#x27;s as big of a deal as the author thinks it is. Computer systems are often extremely complicated and confusing. Yes you might not think so because you are familiar with them, but things that seem obvious to you through experience do not to everyone else.<p>Anything that makes them simpler, easier, or cuts through the confusion is a good thing. My analogy would be how most programmers don&#x27;t work with machine code. Even if they are familiar with it they probably don&#x27;t have any experience. And you get any more low level than that, like the cpu design.<p>Specialization is a good thing. It&#x27;s how we built modern civilization and how we are able to build computers in the first place. For most people there isn&#x27;t really any benefit of learning the details of their operating system, if they don&#x27;t have to deal with it in the first place because it&#x27;s well designed, isn&#x27;t that a good thing?<p>&gt;I have one question for these policy makers:<p>&gt;Without reference to Wikipedia, can you tell me what the difference is between The Internet, The World Wide Web, a web-browser and a search engine?<p>&gt;If you can’t, then you have no right to be making decisions that affect my use of these technologies. Try it out. Do your friends know the difference? Do you?<p>Legislators also aren&#x27;t familiar with the vast majority of other industries they regulate. Stupid regulations aren&#x27;t unique to technology. You just happen to know enough to see problems with them.<p>&gt;We should be teaching kids not to install malware, rather than locking down machines so that it’s physically impossible.<p>What&#x27;s wrong with more secure systems? I mean I don&#x27;t think we should lock out general purpose apps entirely, but it&#x27;s great that people can generally trust random apps, and that it&#x27;s much harder to create a virus.<p>And for what it&#x27;s worth, computercraft for minecraft is a great way of introducing programming.
incisionalmost 12 years ago
<i>&gt;&quot;A hundred years ago, if you were lucky enough to own a car then you probably knew how to fix it. People could at least change the oil, change the tyres, or even give the engine a tune-up. I’ve owned a car for most of my adult life and they’re a mystery to me.&quot;</i><p>I wonder if this guys mechanic&#x2F;dealership is as much of an assumptive, condescending douche towards him as he admittedly is toward everyone who seeks his help?<p>There are good points in there, but they&#x27;re buried among 4000+ words of rambling tripe.<p>Personally, I agree with bits of what is presented. Thing is, I don&#x27;t think these are things which necessarily need fixing. We&#x27;re in a period of transition where this kind of mismatch is apparent, but it will fade quickly with time and I&#x27;d question the impact of widespread low-level literacy on progress.
jfranchealmost 12 years ago
Wow, I have a completely different take on this article. Us techno-geeks that can fix proxy settings are low-end commodities nowadays. (Outside of a tech company) - the lawyers, doctors, salesmen that want to work and drive revenue don&#x27;t need to mess with that. Newer computers and OS&#x27;s do shield a lot of that, and that is a good thing. They can hire a few IT dorks to plug things in if needed. That is the future. There was a time that a car mechanic was looked at as an engineer or scientist. Now he is a wrench turner. Get used to it. Now, should people dump tech problems on you? No. Just like it is not considered right to show your rash to your doctor friend while at Starbucks. That is a different issue.
hkuoalmost 12 years ago
Perhaps the issue is that there is this expectation that everyone should know how to &quot;use&quot; a computer. We forgive older generations, because it&#x27;s something they never grew up with while being appalled at younger generations because they&#x27;re not using computers to do technical stuff. News flash: computers are not the end all be all of the world. It&#x27;s simply an aspect of it, and while some kids won&#x27;t give a crap about how computers work, others will be wildly passionate about it. Some kids will grow up to be doctors, lawyers, scientists, teachers, artists, philosophers, and excelling in their domains does not come with a requirement of knowing how to connect to a wifi network.
astral303almost 12 years ago
By the way, the counterpoint to that Cory Doctorow quote how everything is a computer (airplane is a flying computer) is that the EXACT PROBLEM with software is that damn near everything is a computer. And when you add a computer to anything, it tends to go to shit. Things that worked just fine without it, now saddled with the typical software engineering mindset, are suddenly not so good. BMW iDrive, Ford Sync&#x2F;MyFord Touch case in point.<p>Read the preview of this book:<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum/dp/0672326140" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;The-Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0672...</a><p>The part that says &quot;what do you get when you cross a computer with an airplane&quot;.
wowanamealmost 12 years ago
I am horrible at being patient with others&#x27; technical difficulties. I&#x27;ve run into the &quot;Where&#x27;s the Internet Explorer icon&quot; problem at my elementary school before; I honestly do not understand why the desktop folder was invented.<p>Yes, the article was a bit harsh, but you have to admit there are a few real issues the author is pointing out. Why the hell are schools being taught Microsoft Office from junior high all the way to senior year? Why can&#x27;t school systems set up a GNU&#x2F;Linux distro on their networks? Sure, it takes a bit more work to install, but it&#x27;s free and technology classes would benefit heavily from it.<p>I know somebody is gonna reply and say that Linux has no real-world use.
mmaginalmost 12 years ago
In a lot of the discussions I&#x27;m seeing on here, it seems like a lot of the disagreement is around the question of whether it is reasonable to expect that people should be expected to know how their tools work.<p>I would have to take the position that people should have some in-depth knowledge of how their tools work. Why? All abstractions are leaky. Would you expect a carpenter to use a (powered) saw without knowing how it is designed and how the blade is driven (for safety and making smooth cuts)? Would you expect a radiologist to interpret x-ray photos without having an understanding of the impact that different energy (KeV) radiation and film&#x2F;sensor technology has on the resulting image?
jpatokalalmost 12 years ago
The blog doesn&#x27;t do a very good job of explaining why this should worry us. For shits and giggles, try replacing every instance of &quot;computer&quot; with &quot;car&quot;, and every complaint about not being able to reinstall the OS with not being able to replace the carburetor.<p>Guess what? The vast majority of people don&#x27;t <i>need</i> to know how to replace the carburetor, or know how to reinstall the OS -- they&#x27;re happy with something that Just Works 99% of the time, and to consult professionals the rest of the time. And that&#x27;s just fine: in the same way that not everybody needs to be a car mechanic, not everybody needs to be a computer guru.
jroseattlealmost 12 years ago
This just sounds like the rantings of a disgruntled &quot;computer guy&quot; (sorry for the gender bias). The suggestion here is that the ability of users to handle their own inane tasks EQUALS the ability to use a computer. Nothing could be further from the truth.<p>FWIW, my kids can use their computers quite ably. They use the command line, they know the difference between wireless vs. physical connections, and they know their file system. And, wouldn&#x27;t you know it -- sometimes they still ask inane questions for help.<p>Reading some of the comments, it&#x27;s apparent the author takes his teaching seriously. I hope it comes through as teaching, and not as disdain for the future.
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KVFinnalmost 12 years ago
I&#x27;ve had some experiences in the opposite direction.<p>A neighborhood kid, about 12, asked me for some computer help with Minecraft. My jaw hit the floor when he started asking about stuff I didn&#x27;t learn until college -- he was doing this crazy redtone circuitry (stuff like <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc6spHvGPtQ" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Oc6spHvGPtQ</a>) to program the doors in a castle according to timers and various inputs.<p>The kid was basically teaching himself hardware design just to play a game. And it wasn&#x27;t considered that weird, this was just what you have to do in Minecraft.
mathattackalmost 12 years ago
This is a stretch for me... Should every kid know how to install Linux? And troubleshoot a proxy? Hmmm.... And is this important if they can&#x27;t read or write well?<p>I view computing as a great topic for those that are interested, but technology is getting easier. I want my kids to learn about it, and consider it for a career. But mandatory? I won&#x27;t turn my nose up on anyone who doesn&#x27;t understand proxy settings.<p>That said, I recall a finance professor bemoaning that most Phd students in his department don&#x27;t program any more. &quot;This will limit the kinds of research that they can do.&quot;
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alexPetrovalmost 12 years ago
I have only read the TL:DR.<p>If you&#x27;re going to be a condescending jerk, why should I read anything you have to say? You know what makes it obvious that an article is too long for me to read? I start reading it and notice it is too long for me. No condescending presupposition about how I use my free-time is necessary.<p>I infer you are trying to get a point across. I recommend you cut out anything that both has no chance of improving your chance of reaching people with that point and also reasonable chance of increasing the amount of people who will ignore your article. Focus on the point.
GhotiFishalmost 12 years ago
<p><pre><code> &quot;Without reference to Wikipedia, can you tell me what the difference is between The Internet, The World Wide Web, a web-browser and a search engine?&quot; </code></pre> uh... well the last two are pretty easy, but... the first two.<p>I actually don&#x27;t know, I&#x27;ve used those two terms interchangably to be honest. I guess if I was pressed I&#x27;d say that the world wide web is what the colloquial internet actually is, and the internet is the package of protocols the world wide web runs on? I can&#x27;t imagine many people are going to get this one right.
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csensealmost 12 years ago
&gt; defeated by their school laptops because they don’t have administrator privileges<p>Physical access is usually game-over from a security perspective. Unless you&#x27;re doing hard-core encryption and TPM stuff, I bet someone who knew what they were doing, and was allowed to take a laptop home overnight, could root it by morning.<p>I&#x27;m sure that some students have done this.<p>I&#x27;m not going to detail the attack vectors, because I respect those hackers more than I respect the school that gives people crippled hardware, and I want those doors to remain open for others like them.
DocGalmost 12 years ago
I am under 25 and I can use a computer. Why? Because my parents bought me only my first computer and refused to upgrade after that. At one point my need for playing new games got the best of me and I started experimenting. First OS cleanup, first format, first memory upgrade, etc.<p>I have never really learned how do deal with computers. Its just 10+ years of just fixing whatever is broken&#x2F;not working, because there was no one to fix it for me.<p>Now I just have to find a job where I can do this problem solving for money
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lotsofcowsalmost 12 years ago
TL,DR? You write a rambling article containing basic factual inaccuracies and switching writing style without warning and you dare make it sound as thought not wanting to finish it is somehow _my_ fault?<p>The bits in italics were well written. The first paragraph headed &quot;parents&quot; was a nice conclusion. That would have made a great post.<p>The bit about the UK going to MS for it&#x27;s initial computing curriculum seems to wipe the BBC &#x2F; Acorn &#x2F; ARM story from history.
seldoalmost 12 years ago
&quot;It&#x27;s no longer necessary to be a computer person in order to use a computer, and that means lots of people are using computers who aren&#x27;t computer people!&quot; TRAGEDY!<p>Lots of people use cars and don&#x27;t know how to fix them. Lots of people live in houses but hire people to repair the plumbing or the electricals when those things break. You don&#x27;t have to completely understand something to use something, and that&#x27;s OKAY.
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NoodleIncidentalmost 12 years ago
I didn&#x27;t agree with most of the article, but the bit about the Microsoft Office curriculum is completely true.<p>In high school, I wanted to take my school&#x27;s generic AP Java class. To get to even such a basic level of CS education, I had to sit through _years_ of MS Office and Adobe classes. Thankfully, the workload was so low, I was able to teach myself TI Basic and Actionscript, but those classes were jokes.
iopqalmost 12 years ago
Wow, what a badass, you can connect to a wifi, turn on a monitor AND find an IE icon on the desktop? How does one acquire such advanced skills?
btbuildemalmost 12 years ago
Wow, this guy sure trolled HN good..<p>If someone asks you &quot;can you fix my computer&quot;, a good response could be &quot;I have some time next Tuesday, it&#x27;ll be $50 to figure out what&#x27;s wrong, plus $100&#x2F;hr to fix it&quot;.<p>And yes, most people are lazy and do the minimum to get by in their lives, whether in context of computers of otherwise. Don&#x27;t kvetch about it, use it to your advantage.
adammilalmost 12 years ago
He&#x27;s mastered the arcane and delicate technology that we software people work with every day, but that doesn&#x27;t make everyone else a moron. His experience blinds him to how bad the user interfaces are for most things we use. The sad fact is that most software products are simply not good enough if the general population is expected to be successful with them.
aristidbalmost 12 years ago
Even the most savvy computer user will make stupid mistakes... For example I once wondered why my display didn&#x27;t work when I had apparently accidentally hit the &quot;Input Source&quot; button so the display was no longer set to DVI and didn&#x27;t know how to get it to work... I guess I &quot;can&#x27;t use a computer&quot; in the author&#x27;s mind?
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snowwrestleralmost 12 years ago
Article could benefit from a blog post version of the Wadsworth Constant.<p><a href="http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-wadsworth-constant" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;knowyourmeme.com&#x2F;memes&#x2F;the-wadsworth-constant</a><p>By my count the first 15 paragraphs had nothing to do with the title and served mainly to illustrate the author&#x27;s projection of his disdain for others.
Zigurdalmost 12 years ago
Get out of the driver&#x27;s seat you git! If you don&#x27;t set the manual choke properly you&#x27;ll flood the engine!
NDizzlealmost 12 years ago
The 30-50 age range can use computers because they spent the early half of the 90s trying to get VGA games to run reasonably well on their 386s. Or they were laying in front of the commodore, recreating code from a magazine. Me and my friends tried to recreate songs on it.<p>At least that&#x27;s how I got my start. What&#x27;s your story?
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dllthomasalmost 12 years ago
This post made me realize I&#x27;ve come to use &quot;TL;DR&quot; as &quot;thesis&quot; or &quot;abstract&quot; - giving me something of a sense of what the writing promises and where it&#x27;s going before I dive in - and I found it somewhat jarring when this one didn&#x27;t meet my expectations.
joshaidanalmost 12 years ago
I have a lot to say in response to this article, but for now I&#x27;ll just share a quote from one of my computer science professors that I&#x27;ll never forget:<p>&quot;Just because you&#x27;re a computer science professor doesn&#x27;t mean you know how to use a computer.&quot;
vehementialmost 12 years ago
Yyyyyyup, that&#x27;s a lot of comments by people complaining about the tone of the article (and misunderstanding it to boot) and ignoring the content.
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dylangs1030almost 12 years ago
This is one of the most fantastically insightful and legitimately important posts I&#x27;ve seen on Hacker News in a while. It&#x27;s refreshing.
waylandsmithersalmost 12 years ago
helpdesk&#x2F;support guy here-- I think a small part of this is a weird desire to be liked by the person asking for help-- the &#x27;wow, thanks!&#x27; after you flick their wi-fi switch back on. You often don&#x27;t make friends by telling them to google it, or maybe pointing them to the appropriate documentation, especially if they don&#x27;t care to learn.
borlakalmost 12 years ago
It sounds like you want everyone to be a system administrator. That is not going to ever happen.<p>The human history of inventing has one very consistent theme: making things easier for ourselves. &quot;Computers&quot; will only become easier to use, and require less knowledge of the humans that are using them.<p>When &quot;computers&quot; go wrong, a human with that specialty will fix it. You have that specialty. Why can&#x27;t everyone fix their own cars or HVACs or bake their own bread?
JVIDELalmost 12 years ago
When I read <i>kids</i> I was expecting actual kids, a &quot;twentysomething&quot; may already have kids of their own.
auggierosealmost 12 years ago
Great post. Looking forward to hopefully having beers with you and Phil in Edinburgh sometime soon again.
smoothalmost 12 years ago
If you don&#x27;t know how to spell &quot;tires&quot;, you don&#x27;t know how to use a computer.
beefxqalmost 12 years ago
Kids will just use tablets instead.
WalterBrightalmost 12 years ago
When I was a kid, none of the other kids could use a computer. I couldn&#x27;t, either.
touristtamalmost 12 years ago
maybe we need a license to use a computer to e entitled to technical support? So many Personal Computer users are just about clueless about the so simple things.
yawniekalmost 12 years ago
the real tldr: &quot;i don&#x27;t know how to properly configure a network and now everybody and me has to suffer&quot;
auggierosealmost 12 years ago
I had the same Fisher Price toy!!
ssyphonalmost 12 years ago
Thank you for writing this.
angersockalmost 12 years ago
So, here&#x27;s some different themes in the thread so far, some ideas spawned from the article, and thoughts on them:<p><pre><code> Author is a jerk for the TLDR at the beginning </code></pre> Sure--it&#x27;s unfortunate that such a red herring was thrown into an otherwise excellent article.<p><pre><code> Normal people shouldn&#x27;t have to learn how to into computer. </code></pre> This is unreasonable. &quot;People don&#x27;t want to learn how to computer, they want to learn how to get X done&quot; is a great statement, but there&#x27;s a distressing endpoint to it: if you simply learn how to get X done, instead of the framework for using resources that enable things including X, you become a technician, a cog. One day I&#x27;m going to write an Excel spreadsheet VB macro, and your whole department is out of a job. One day somebody will release YourJobaaService and then you are useless. And because you spent your life becoming a technician, you won&#x27;t be able to enjoy your newfound free time, because you can&#x27;t do anything other than blithely consume the content others have created.<p><pre><code> People still treat computers as new things. </code></pre> We&#x27;ve had personal computers for nigh-on three or four decades now, and the fact that they&#x27;re still treated in popular culture as magic black boxes is a failing on our part as techies for not educating better the rest of the population. We probably did it to curry favor, to enjoy the power of knowing something they didn&#x27;t, but damned if it isn&#x27;t going to bite us in the end.<p>As the author deftly points out, these folks are going to become our political leaders--and however little we think of their policies in regards to technology, they&#x27;ll be that way because we failed to impress on them the knowledge that they needed. For anyone who&#x27;s been paying attention to the darker subtext of the PRISM scandal, you can draw the uncomfortable conclusion that the government is saying: &quot;Hey, tech sector, guess what--the halcyon days of your industry ignoring us are over. We matter, we command, and you obey. Get back into line.&quot;<p>Things would be different if any politician making clearly false claims about technology and the way it works could be and was mocked publicly, much as we mock US politicians with too much of the Jesus.<p><pre><code> IT front-line people are seen as janitors and treated accordingly. </code></pre> Many of us have been there, many of us have probably chatted up a member of the preferred sex and tried to display value as somebody who can Fix Things (tm) or just stepped in to help a friend unfuck a colossally broken setup. This gets you quickly shunted off into the IT monkey box. You become not a person, but an annoyingly human interface over a set of skills that can be tapped on command to make problems go away. You aren&#x27;t seen as a person, you&#x27;re seen as a vending machine of computer repair. Again, this is probably our own fault--instead of teaching people how to fix their own problems, many of us used our positions and social skills (or lack thereof) to cultivate exactly this caste. Mistakes, mistakes.<p><pre><code> People don&#x27;t know how to use computers as engines of computation. </code></pre> The rise of the Web and the mobile device is mostly to blame for this, though the idea of a Mac as something your grandmother could use goes back many decades.<p>The problem is, knowing how to use a computer isn&#x27;t like knowing how to fix your car, how to change its oil, or how to replace your water pump and radiator--a simple mechanical task that one could argue is redundant. It&#x27;s about a way of thinking, about a way of abstracting problems and creating generalized solutions, about recognizing patterns in a system and applying just enough force to overcome your issue in an elegant fashion. This mindset is important to cultivate, and carries over to solving other problems and enriching your life.<p>Mankind is foremost a tool-user, and to deny that basic responsibility to our fellow humans is to tacitly acknowledge that they are subhuman.
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gcb0almost 12 years ago
This is one reason I&#x27;m against the current GUI trend in Linux. By copying Apple and Microsoft blatantly, they forgot that when using the command line that they are replacing user must first understand the concept of what they are doing.<p>Most guis i contributed to opensource have at least the console output so the user is not 100% oblivious to the concepts that are happening underneath.
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jackmaneyalmost 12 years ago
Obligatory xkcd: <a href="http://xkcd.com/627/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;627&#x2F;</a>
rhizomealmost 12 years ago
No, this is why it worries <i>him</i>: his salary depends on it.<p>Frankly, I have never seen a good reason why kids need to use computers or the internet aside from peer pressure, especially in elementary school. There&#x27;s nothing that requires it until at least high school, at least as much as they should learn to frame a house because they might be a construction worker some day.
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TallboyOnealmost 12 years ago
I hate these idiotic titles. It feels like I see at least 5 titles a day that are broad sweeping generalizations that all have the same tone. Of course kids can use computers, don&#x27;t be stupid. Maybe a small subset can&#x27;t. If that&#x27;s not what the article is about, then don&#x27;t put it in the title.<p>And also.. I went to read the article, saw the extremely arrogant TLDR and closed it.
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