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Google Blindness

90 pointsby mh_almost 12 years ago

31 comments

tptacekalmost 12 years ago
Not that any other forum would do a better job of carefully and intelligently discussing the differences between Apple and Google and iOS and Android, but just so you know: HN is terrible at these kinds of discussions. Maybe we should cultivate them so &#x27;pg and his minions can come up with clever statistical tests for bad comments using these stupid OS-war slapfights as a corpus.<p>Meanwhile, to everyone else on the thread: GUESS WHAT? You&#x27;re never going to resolve this issue. None of your comments are convincing anyone of anything. They&#x27;re generating head-nodding from people who already agree with you, and rageposts from people who don&#x27;t. It has ever been thus, since the moment where someone wrote a second text editor in the history of text editors, and it will always be thus. At least you&#x27;re part of a noble, silly-looking tradition.
acqqalmost 12 years ago
One point I&#x27;d like to see discussed is written by Bruce Schneier, it made me look at the subject a bit differently than before:<p><i>If the National Security Agency required us to notify it whenever we made a new friend, the nation would rebel. Yet we notify Facebook. If the Federal Bureau of Investigation demanded copies of all our conversations and correspondence, it would be laughed at. Yet we provide copies of our e-mail to Google, Microsoft or whoever our mail host is; we provide copies of our text messages to Verizon, AT&amp;T and Sprint; and we provide copies of other conversations to Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, or whatever other site is hosting them.<p>The primary business model of the Internet is built on mass surveillance</i><p><a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/08/the_publicpriva_1.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.schneier.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;archives&#x2F;2013&#x2F;08&#x2F;the_publicpriv...</a><p>Google&#x27;s primary business is surveillance of their users. Selling the results to their customers, advertisers.
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jmdukealmost 12 years ago
So I think there are two points that Paul makes: hardware and services.<p>On the hardware front: I don&#x27;t really buy the notion that Android hardware is up to par with Apple. I realize this is an inherently subjective argument: I&#x27;ve played with my friends&#x27; Android phones and I just don&#x27;t like the way they look or feel compared to the iPhone.<p>On the services front: I think the argument that &quot;Google is an advertising company and that makes them an inherently worse ecosystem&quot; is weak, but I absolutely agree that we&#x27;re past the point of &quot;this is the best solution for everyone.&quot;<p>Personally -- I don&#x27;t use any Apple services besides, well, the App Store, despite relying on them 100% for the hardware side (iPad + MBA + iPhone). And I don&#x27;t use Google to the extent Paul does: I use GMail, Search, and Chrome.<p>This has the advantage of portability: I don&#x27;t have to tie myself to a given ecosystem because I&#x27;m stuck there. I tie myself to whatever makes my life the easiest.
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anxiousalmost 12 years ago
Seems the author is suffering from fanboyism induced blindness. The main points made about Android that make it great have little to do with Google: the ability to set default apps, intent sharing between apps, notifications, customised launchers, etc. Also in the referenced post the Android user describes rolling his own solutions with Bittorrent Sync: <a href="http://paulstamatiou.com/android-is-better" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulstamatiou.com&#x2F;android-is-better</a><p>Somehow OP glossed all over that and shifted the discussion to a troll baiting exercise. The truth is that whether you&#x27;re wed to Google&#x27;s services or to Apple&#x27;s you&#x27;re make certain tradeoffs, but one key difference remains is that you can be a Google user on the iPhone which puts them ahead in my opinion.<p>Also I don&#x27;t buy the disingenuous argument that since Apple is less adequate at services they are somehow better at privacy - more data makes better apps.
varelsealmost 12 years ago
GMail and Google Maps were my go to apps on Android for years (since 2009 in fact). They both suck now. Combine that with the brick-like interactivity of my less than 2 year-old Galaxy Nexus and I&#x27;m abandoning Android for iOS as soon as my contract expires despite the fact I actually prefer a lot of Android&#x27;s look and feel.<p>To be fair, my Nexus 7 hasn&#x27;t quite given up the ghost yet, but now that its successor has been released, I&#x27;m counting the days until it too becomes as responsive as Karen Ann Quinlan.<p>And that&#x27;s a shame because Android&#x27;s interface has really come a long way in that time. Paul Stamatiou&#x27;s article showcases some really cool design advances that have happened since Android 4.0.<p>For me it all comes down to Google seeming to not care one bit about anything except the latest and greatest devices. Yes I know that Android 4.3 is supposed to address that - good luck shipping that one out to all the major carriers.<p>In closing, the same brickification that hit my Galaxy Nexus this year happened to my original droid in 2011 - fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...
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cascaalmost 12 years ago
We&#x27;re currently in the stage of the Internet where we can choose our feudal masters[1]. Want Google? Fine. Prefer Apple. No problem. Microsoft? Why not. For me, the issue is that people are becoming more entrenched as time progresses. The cost of preparing to switch can be relatively low - pay $8&#x2F;year for your own domain and it&#x27;s possible to keep using the same systems you choose today.<p>Yet if the technological elite (as represented by HN) is unwilling to do this, what chance do the rest have? [2]<p>[1] <a href="https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.schneier.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;archives&#x2F;2012&#x2F;12&#x2F;feudal_sec.ht...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5537383" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5537383</a>
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johnwardalmost 12 years ago
Can someone explain to me why Marco Arment&#x27;s opinion is so important? I mean it even seems like he doesn&#x27;t understand why. What makes him so popular?
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donniezazenalmost 12 years ago
<p><pre><code> The better question the Android community should be asking itself is why it hasn&#x27;t attracted or developed great writers and evangelists as well as Apple has. </code></pre> Android has much more global impact than iPhone will ever have [1]. A huge chunk of people in developing countries earn less-per-month than the cost of an iPhone. So who cares if some yeppie evangelist is not using it.<p><pre><code> People are going to be coming online for the first time. There’s this vibrant community of young app developers growing in Kenya and Nigeria. - Jimmy Wales. </code></pre> Macro goes on at length on privacy without realizing that there is no way to tell if iPhone is not sending each bit of data back to government or any other organization for that matter. Open Source nature of Android, AOSP, makes it the most viable option in today&#x27;s surveillance state.<p>[1] <a href="http://techcrunch.com/2012/12/10/50-android-smartphones-are-disrupting-africa-much-faster-than-you-think-says-wikipedias-jimmy-wales/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;techcrunch.com&#x2F;2012&#x2F;12&#x2F;10&#x2F;50-android-smartphones-are-...</a>
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Fuzzwahalmost 12 years ago
So you&#x27;ve got to choose one and he&#x27;s chosen apple. The previous article chose google.<p>I&#x27;ve chosen google but what would make an interesting article for me is one which explained whether iOS or android was better if &#x2F; when I want to cut myself off from either apple or google&#x27;s online services and replace them with self hosted email &#x2F; calendar &#x2F; etc.
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DannoHungalmost 12 years ago
Considering the shitfits people were going into over Reader being eliminated, you&#x27;d think people would be a little more cautious about giving Google the keys to the kingdom on things as crucial as calendaring, contacts, and mail. Which is why the original article was a pretty good summation for me of why I&#x27;m not going to go Android any time soon, personally.
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yevyalmost 12 years ago
I would wager that the reason Marco (and many other mobile entrepreneurs) gravitate to iOS boils down to one line in his post that he doesn&#x27;t feel the need to defend:<p>&quot;We can make a living developing for it.&quot;<p>Android has (roughly) 4X market share but just 1&#x2F;3 of the revenue compared to iOS. When the per user revenue gap closes, Marco&#x27;s preference may change.
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oscargrouchalmost 12 years ago
after reading both perspectives you learn that:<p>* you are locked in, no matter if you prefer android or ios * choose you poison?<p>come on, it took years and a lot of effort to take us all out of the nightmare of the windows ecosystem lock in.. so we can fall out in the same trap all over again?<p>and while this is a natural behavior of apple that we should be all expecting, i expected more from google.. because nowadays google is looking like a schizophrenic, working for the web and open ecosystems, creating a lot of awesome opensource projects with one hand, and creating more and more closed ecosystem that try to lock people and developers in.. google looks like dr jekyll and mr hyde..<p>i hope the open google, the google with the hacker culture, that the &quot;Dr Jekyll&quot; google wins in the end..<p>but nowadays it looks that google is more in a love affair with its mr hyde side.. i hope it gets cured preety soon and come back to its hacker spirit roots.. with no traps in their products..<p>apple will just loose more and more market share, because its acting like if it was the 90´s.. and we see now with microsoft that this way of doing things its a thing of the past.. so it will fall by its own steps..<p>but google with a candy in one hand, and a knife in the other hidden on the back.. thats a behaviour that should be feared..
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Oletrosalmost 12 years ago
Marco Arment saying that other people has a &quot;narrow tech-world view&quot; is highly ironic
antitrustalmost 12 years ago
&gt; I object to a huge, creepy advertising company having that much access to me and my data, I think it’s unwise to use many proprietary, hard-to-replace services in such important roles, and I think it’s downright foolish to tie that much of your data and functionality into proprietary services run by one company in one account...<p>He makes a good point.<p>Absolute power gets abused absolutely.<p>Unless the person to whom the power is handed is some kind of Zen master, it&#x27;s likely they&#x27;ll use that power for personal agenda.<p>The groups they like will become elites. The ones they don&#x27;t will get lined up against walls and shot.<p>That&#x27;s just how it is.<p>Even though Google says, &quot;Don&#x27;t be evil,&quot; they aren&#x27;t Zen masters.
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bluthrualmost 12 years ago
We&#x27;re still doing this in 2013?
runjakealmost 12 years ago
Marco&#x27;s article is so poorly-written, so poorly thought-out, I don&#x27;t know where to begin. It&#x27;s really more an article about hating Google as a whole.<p>Google blindness? Or blind hatred for Apple&#x27;s competitors?<p>Some gems, though:<p><pre><code> I think it’s unwise to use many proprietary, hard-to-replace services in such important roles, and I think it’s downright foolish to tie that much of your data and functionality into proprietary services run by one company in one account that sometimes gets disabled permanently with no warning, no recourse, and no support. </code></pre> And Apple&#x27;s services aren&#x27;t less proprietary? Apple doesn&#x27;t tie everything to one Apple ID? Google has pretty poor support, but I&#x27;ve never heard of anyone having their account (unreasonably) permanently disabled.<p>The Google search he links to is some useless Google search on &quot;google account locked&quot;. Here&#x27;s the equivalent Apple ID search:<p><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+account+locked" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?q=apple+account+locked</a> 26.7 million results.<p>Here&#x27;s another:<p><a href="https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;q=apple+id+disabled" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;q=apple+i...</a> Over 29 million results.<p>I could go on a side-discussion about the number of Google users vs Apple users and then compare percentages and Google results and point out that there seem to be more issues with Apple IDs than Google IDs per capita, but why bother?<p>What does it mean? People using both ecosystems get their accounts locked up for some reason or another.<p><pre><code> If Apple somehow irrevocably locks out my Apple ID, which I’ve never heard of happening, it would be inconvenient. My contacts and calendar would temporarily stop syncing during the 20 minutes it would take to create a new account and point my devices to it. The biggest problem would be losing my app and media purchases, although I wouldn’t lose any local copies of anything* </code></pre> I&#x27;ve never heard of someone having their Google account irrevocably locked out, either.<p><pre><code> and there’s a phone number I can call to convince a human to give me a transfer or credit. </code></pre> Yeah, there&#x27;s a number you can call for the Play Store for this purpose as well. I wish it were at the bottom of every page, but it&#x27;s buried underneath a Help menu. That said, Apple&#x27;s support is truly industry-leading and far better than what Google&#x27;s got going. It&#x27;s still not as bad or hopeless as Marco attempts to portray, though.<p><pre><code> It’s important to maintain diversity of services. </code></pre> And you can do this with Android. You don&#x27;t need to use any Google services. Sure it&#x27;ll badger you at first, but no more than an Apple iOS device will.<p>In fact, I&#x27;d say that Android is better at maintaining diversity of services. You can install an account for a wide variety of providers in the Settings app, whereas Apple forces you to stick with whatever they choose for you (Facebook, Twitter, Vimeo, etc). Occasionally, they might remove a provider for you.<p><pre><code> It’s foolish for people on either side to ignore the other or the middle, because despite what it sometimes looks like to geeks like us, we’re not everyone. Not even close. Even within our world, we can’t agree on much. </code></pre> Is this self-deprecation on Marco&#x27;s part?<p><pre><code> like Paul says he does </code></pre> This snippet appears repeatedly in Marco&#x27;s article and strikes me as a passive-aggressive snub. The leading Apple pundits (Gruber, Marco, Dalrymple) are getting more and more hateful towards Apple&#x27;s competitors and I think this betrays an underlying belief that Apple&#x27;s glory days are (sadly) waning. It screams desperation. Maybe this Ellison guy is right.<p>I&#x27;m not a particularly big fan of Google or Apple or Microsoft, and I despise Facebook. But I still use all of their tech daily, but I&#x27;m sure as hell not going to cheer lead for any of them.<p>Edit: Fixed broken copy-pasted links, thanks anonymoushn.
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bitsodaalmost 12 years ago
Hey guys, use whatever products and services work best for you. There&#x27;s no need to pledge allegiance to any company, nor is there a need to tear down somebody else for having an opinion.
dansoalmost 12 years ago
I don&#x27;t get the point or impetus for the OP. Is it supposed to be a warning that one should never put all of their information-eggs in one basket? Or that Google is going to be the worser basket of the two?<p>The latter question of course is just a fanboy debate, and the former question elicits a &quot;no-duh&quot;. But to boil it down to just Google vs. Apple misses the bigger picture: to spread our eggs across different baskets raises new issues of security and convenience, which are <i>always</i> going to be tradeoffs.<p>For example, if you&#x27;re paranoid that either Apple or Google is going to shut off access to your contacts and calendar, is the solution to spread your information across both?<p>If so, how do you keep the two in sync (let&#x27;s assume that at some point in the future, there was no first party support of syncing services)? Or let&#x27;s say you want to use another calendar&#x2F;contacts app completely. Then you rely on a third-party service, which raises the issue of 1. How long will that service stay in business? 2. Can you trust it with your data? 3. Do you have to learn another interface?<p>With the adoption of either iOS&#x2F;Android, I think customers have shown that they do not want to live a splintered digital life. They want a future posited by sci-fi shows, where &quot;things just work.&quot; It&#x27;s not Apple vs Google, it&#x27;s convenience vs. personal responsibility&#x2F;maintenance.
taylodlalmost 12 years ago
The most fundamental difference between Google &amp; Apple? With Google you&#x27;re the product. With Apple you&#x27;re the customer. It&#x27;s a subtle, but important, difference.<p>Other than that both are for-profit companies seeking to lock you into their ecosystems as much as they can. And in order to do that they need to compete for customers - who are varied and have different needs and expectations. Some will choose Android, others will choose iOS. Meanwhile the earth will keep turning.
beatalmost 12 years ago
What about the personal cost of platform switching? I went to the iPhone when version 2 hit the market and it was clearly going to survive as a product. I <i>hate</i> switching technologies, with all the cost and frustration it involves. I&#x27;ve been able to have a single, constantly evolving configuration through four different phones now (five soon, once I can jump from my 4S to a 5S). It&#x27;s always backed up. It&#x27;s survived the physical destruction of a phone. It does everything I require of it, most of that very well.<p>So to get a user like me to switch platforms - it&#x27;s a huge personal expense, not just of money, but of time and intellectual bandwidth. I don&#x27;t need a device that&#x27;s just arguably better, or a little better... I&#x27;d need a game-changer of a device to switch, something that does basically everything I do on my iPhone more efficiently, faster, better, cheaper. I don&#x27;t see that.<p>I&#x27;ll probably stay on iPhone unless Apple really screws up.
daurnimatoralmost 12 years ago
Why has it been painted as a dichotomy of Apple vs Google?<p>In my experience, you want apple software&#x2F;service, you have to go apple hardware; and essentially vice-versa. (Correct me if I&#x27;m wrong!)<p>But if you go with Android (or other OSes) you can choose whatever &quot;cloud&quot; services you want. Just cause Paul used Google with his android phone doesn&#x27;t mean you have to.
xradionutalmost 12 years ago
Marco so conveniently forgot the whole debacle of Apple&#x27;s developer resources and sites being down for almost two weeks.
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eltondegeneresalmost 12 years ago
Calling someone &quot;blind&quot; for being obtuse or oblivious doesn&#x27;t really seem like the best word choice.
bdcravensalmost 12 years ago
Keep in mind that many iOS users are as tied to the Google ecosystem. My email, calendar, and contacts are all Google-synced. Most decent calendar apps tend to use Google as well; ditto for mail apps like Mailbox. Many of the Google apps (like Maps) make it too easy to login, which the features it adds.
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jimsilvermanalmost 12 years ago
&quot;I object to a huge, creepy advertising company having that much access to me and my data, I think it’s unwise to use many proprietary, hard-to-replace services in such important roles, and I think it’s downright foolish to tie that much of your data and functionality into proprietary services run by one company in one account that sometimes gets disabled permanently with no warning, no recourse, and no support.&quot;<p>that&#x27;s one horrific run-on sentence. it&#x27;s both grammatically flawed and descriptive solely of the platform the author is attempting to defend.<p>i can no longer tell if this guy&#x27;s serious or just trolling.
gcb0almost 12 years ago
I usually disagree with marco posts here and i&#x27;m 99% sure he get&#x27;s paid by apple :) but this point is pertinent and i&#x27;m looking for alternatives for gmail and maps and voice and failing.
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product50almost 12 years ago
Again these are his personal views as well (similar to Paul&#x27;s). I think if you take a cross section of all the smartphone users though, there will be a lot many who use Google&#x27;s services vs. Apple&#x27;s. So not sure what Marco would suggest to those - should they give Android a try based on Paul&#x27;s article then? Though I am an Android user, I think this debate is broader than whether you use Google services or not.
thrownaway2424almost 12 years ago
It doesn&#x27;t seem very hard to believe that someone uses an iPhone but doesn&#x27;t use iTunes to manage music. iTunes is next to useless if your music doesn&#x27;t fit on your device. A service (such as Google Play Music All Access [worst product name ever]) makes more sense if you&#x27;re always connected.
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hawleyalalmost 12 years ago
Same coin, different side.
Gromblealmost 12 years ago
Have any of you people done a single important thing today, or is arguing about what some guy on the internet said about [corporation] so vital that you couldn&#x27;t ignore the Call to Troll?
seijialmost 12 years ago
A lot of people are Children of The Church of Google. They&#x27;re happy with a 100% data tithing to Google. That&#x27;s Google&#x27;s entire business: get data from users then make money from it for the furtherment of Google itself, not the users.<p>A lot of people are Children of The Church of Apple. They&#x27;re happy with letting Apple carry buckets of data across devices, but the buckets of data remain in the person&#x27;s control. That&#x27;s Apple&#x27;s entire business model: help people do what they need to do and don&#x27;t encroach into lives needlessly.
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